2006: Battle for the Living Room

wco81 said:
Then a few years back, the Sony head guy (Idei) said he thought the center of the AV future would be the TV, as it has always been the case (long before Sony talked about putting Cell in TVs)

Yes, while most people are talking about Cell in PS3. I'm more keen to find out what will happen when I plug a Cell-based Toshiba HDTV to a PS3. Have they gone far enough to think of some crazy network app for both, as Mr. Kutaragi initially postulated. Probably not, but one could always dream.
 
patsu said:
+ Mac users are more willing to pay a premium for convenience
To win the living room, you need to sell to more than just the Mac users. You need a device that doesn't cost a premium because the average person isn't going to spend a premium.

Sony are in the best position to win as they control a lot of the solution from end to end, and so don't need support from outside to gain momentum. eg, They can be sure BluRay gets films because they can release their own, and they can ensure cheap hardware because they already have the sudsidized model on a popular platform. But historically they've never been smart enough to bring it all together, so may fumble instead.

And I don't think 2006 is the battle of the living room. It's the first skirmish. The main battle won't begin until 2007/2008 when there's $150-200 dollar boxes and established formats.
 
xbdestroya said:
I don't think the Kutaragi demotion had anything to do with that, unless there's some piece of news out there in the public space which I've missed. It had more to do with the Idei/Stringer/Ohga drama than anything else, plus the focus they wanted him to place on PS3. Ostensibly Kutaragi was kicked off the board because the rest of the board was as well, a condition of Idei's for 'fresh' direction and a free hand for his successor. I think though a lot of it had to do with his position as Ohga's 'favored' successor, and Idei wanting to remove Ohga's influence from the boardroom.

It did play a role IMO.


It appears the 54-year-old Kutaragi's outspoken nature, in a corporate culture that's oiled by consensus, may be to blame. Independent and shockingly frank by Japanese standards, Kutaragi hasn't held back from criticizing company decisions. In January, he told the Foreign Correspondents' Club in Tokyo that fellow executives had been overly restrictive in controlling Sony content in a world where consumers of digital movies and music want hassle-free access.

Asked what he would do if he were running Sony, Kutaragi said the company must revive its original innovative spirit, when it boasted engineering finesse with the transistor radio, Walkman and Trinitron TV. Sony also has been hurt by its insistence on making its content proprietary, Kutaragi said.

Some employees, he said, have been frustrated for years with management's reluctance to introduce products similar to Apple Computer Inc.'s iPod portable music player, mainly because Sony's music and movie units were worried about content rights. Indeed, Kutaragi's comments came about the same time that Sony decided to finally agree to support the open and widely used MP3 digital audio standard on its portable music players.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=640181
 
Wintel for me. Ipod is the only product to break out of apple niche mould.

the rest are encroaching Wintel domain, wet behind the ears.
 
Avaya I see what you're saying there. I agree that Kutaragi's unusually abrasive manner contributed to him not getting the CEO position, but I still don't think it contributed directly to his demotion per se.

In any event it's a Fortune interview with Idei I read - and then later one with Kutaragi - that I choose more or less to trust on the matter.

I have a truncated version of that article you can view here, as well as a post that deals with the boardroom situation here.
 
xbdestroya said:
Avaya I see what you're saying there. I agree that Kutaragi's unusually abrasive manner contributed to him not getting the CEO position, but I still don't think it contributed directly to his demotion per se.

In any event it's a Fortune interview with Idei I read - and then later one with Kutaragi - that I choose more or less to trust on the matter.

I have a truncated version of that article you can view here, as well as a post that deals with the boardroom situation here.

I had not seen those before, many thanks.
 
@wco81: Good points.

Still, though I don't see the distribution side of things taking off in the near term, I do think that even if it remains niche for a while, the hardware side of things is going to start heating up. And the way things shape up while remaining niche will probably have an effect in determining when, if, and how it breaks out into the mainstream. There's more to life than actual need afterall - perceived need plays a large role as well and in that sense we'll see how these things get marketed.

I'm not worried about 'loud' HTPC's in the living room because with Intel's upcoming chips they are definitely going to be pushing towards low power and near-silent - if not passively cooled period for their ViiV boxes.

I don't know, I mean it's all early I admit, but in a couple of days the hype for it is going to begin so I'm just wondering what peoples thoughts are on the matter before we all start hearing the corporate lines and can actually dissect specifics rather than concepts.

On the portable video thing, well... I think it's no big deal, but I've seen enough cars in my area with one or more LCD screens playing onboard and enough people viewing television on cell phones or movies otherwise to think that this movement doesn't have some legs to it in the long run.
 
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Shifty Geezer said:
To win the living room, you need to sell to more than just the Mac users. You need a device that doesn't cost a premium because the average person isn't going to spend a premium.

Sony are in the best position to win as they control a lot of the solution from end to end, and so don't need support from outside to gain momentum. eg, They can be sure BluRay gets films because they can release their own, and they can ensure cheap hardware because they already have the sudsidized model on a popular platform. But historically they've never been smart enough to bring it all together, so may fumble instead.

And I don't think 2006 is the battle of the living room. It's the first skirmish. The main battle won't begin until 2007/2008 when there's $150-200 dollar boxes and established formats.
What is Sony offering or doing that makes the PS3 significantly positioned differently such that this time they will achieve some "winning of the living room"?

.Sis
 
xbdestroya said:
I'm not worried about 'loud' HTPC's in the living room because with Intel's upcoming chips they are definitely going to be pushing towards low power and near-silent - if not passively cooled period for their ViiV boxes.
I agree. My Toshiba DLP TV has a fan that is as loud, or louder, than my HTPC fan. The Xbox 360 is much louder, of course, but when using the media functions--which is primarily what we're talking about here--it is just not noticable.

.Sis
 
Sis said:
What is Sony offering or doing that makes the PS3 significantly positioned differently such that this time they will achieve some "winning of the living room"?
Nothing concrete so far, hence my point they may well just flunk out again (except BluRay of course). The only obvious strength is noises from a new CEO saying he actually wants to bring it all together. I guess CES will be the first chance to see a new unified direction driving Sony.
 
That long Yahoo article on Intel is interesting.

They may be able to deliver small and quiet boxes with their mobile chips.

But will these boxes be cheap and simple to operate? Like plug it in and turn it on?

Not if you have to boot Vista. (who saw the Jobs demo showing the MCE remote and the Front Row remote side by side?)
 
wco81 said:
who saw the Jobs demo showing the MCE remote and the Front Row remote side by side?
That's the slickness of Steve Jobs, where your strengths are your weaknesses. Don't want to put an LCD screen on an mp3 player? Have it automatically shuffle all songs and name it after this weakness. Your media center functionality is very light? Call it simplification and compare it to a more complex implementation.

I'm very curious to see Apple's new product. I have the Mac Mini and I'm very impressed with it. It's elegant, functional, and inexpensive. But taking that device to the DVR level is not trivial; unless all Apple is planning is support for IR blasting a cable box and recording the RF signal before it hits the TV.

.Sis
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Nothing concrete so far, hence my point they may well just flunk out again (except BluRay of course). The only obvious strength is noises from a new CEO saying he actually wants to bring it all together. I guess CES will be the first chance to see a new unified direction driving Sony.
Right, there's always the chance, given Sony's install base the console world. But this hardly puts them in the best position--otherwise, they should have been able to capitalize on the PS1 or PS2.

.Sis
 
I could also stand more complexity in the remote than the Mac Front Row remote.

Specifically, it would be cool if they used Bluetooth to have two-way communications with the remote and that the remote in the future will be something like an iPod Nano with the screen on it showing feedback.

I think the FR remote as it is can operate a DVR. Most of it will be through on-screen menus.

Regarding the MCE remote, what other features are there besides DVR? MS talks about the millions of MCE that OEMs are now shipping. But most of those probably don't include TV tuners or remotes. With Dell, MCE is only like $30 more than XP Home. However, the TV tuner and remote bundle is $150. I don't see too many takers at that price, for only OTA channels or basic cable channels. No digital cable, no satellite, no premium channels.

I know the X360 also has an elaborate remote (also Logitech has one as well, with dedicated buttons for MCE Extender mode functions). But they'd be better off letting you do all the remote functions with just the buttons on the game controller. Only downside would be that you need to use both hands on that game controller.
 
wco81 said:
I could also stand more complexity in the remote than the Mac Front Row remote.

Specifically, it would be cool if they used Bluetooth to have two-way communications with the remote and that the remote in the future will be something like an iPod Nano with the screen on it showing feedback.

I think the FR remote as it is can operate a DVR. Most of it will be through on-screen menus.

Regarding the MCE remote, what other features are there besides DVR? MS talks about the millions of MCE that OEMs are now shipping. But most of those probably don't include TV tuners or remotes. With Dell, MCE is only like $30 more than XP Home. However, the TV tuner and remote bundle is $150. I don't see too many takers at that price, for only OTA channels or basic cable channels. No digital cable, no satellite, no premium channels.

I know the X360 also has an elaborate remote (also Logitech has one as well, with dedicated buttons for MCE Extender mode functions). But they'd be better off letting you do all the remote functions with just the buttons on the game controller. Only downside would be that you need to use both hands on that game controller.
Well, my Microsoft Remote has all the standard channel buttons, plus 4 small buttons for Live TV, TV Guide, Recorded TV, and DVD. Then there's the "big green button" and your typical "VCR" controls.

http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/ProductDetails.aspx?pid=065

And for a close up:

http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/directron_1874_290254947

This doesn't scream "complex" to me, any more than the remote that came with my TV.

But I agree with your other comments. The lack of tuner hardware with the Media Center boxes is a negative, and even with one you only get analog. This is why the announcement of CableCard support coming in 2006 is fairly significant, IMO.

.Sis
 
Personally, I don't think Apple will be positioning a Mac mini entry into that position, even though it CAN fill most of the roles of a DVR. For one, enhancing it to adopt all the features they want from a device like that will knock the price up (and likely the size) and put them right into the same areas that the Media Center PC's are scrubbing out in, but more importantly they still want to push Apple as a brand and not one particular Apple computer alone. The iMac is their commodity "whole computer solution" right now and is selling well, so why would they leave it out in the cold and trust that consumers will buy a whole OTHER reasonably expensive Apple computer just to stick by their TV?

Personally, I think it more likely Apple will come up with a set-top device focused on media-playing and computer/iPod connectivity in the vein of the Airport Express. It would allow them to make the cheapest, smallest, least-complicated device they could by only concentrating on the unique features such a device would need, and leaning on your PC--hopefully an Apple branded one, but they would certainly need to provite Windows support as well (getting iTunes and associated software onto even MORE Windows boxes...)--for those that it doesn't. So long as the network (ostensibly wireless, but they would certainly offer both) can handle things fairly seamlessly, they would push us along much further into the realm of "automatic home media networking" than things like TiVo2Go have.

It would also allow them to upgrade or offer "premiere" editions for things like Blu-Ray (or other HD DVD support, but I don't think they've shown any inclinations toward HD-DVD yet) without pushing whole-unit cost completely into the realm that the mass-market doesn't want to pay.

Otherwise, I expect ALL Macs to be able to play in this "living room" game, because they don't want to leave any of their users out in the cold; their primary adoption market is selling to their own. It will, however, likely come in the form of a new OSX everyone will have to buy, so that's more $$$ right there. ;)
 
Dave Baumann said:
http://biz.yahoo.com/bizwk/051230/b3966001.html?.v=1

I pointd that article out on the front page. Its all about the changes occuring at Intel at the moment, and touches on the subjects here as well as the relationships they are building with other companies.

Interesting read. As you said Dave a lot of it is known/being discussed, but there were some interesting paragraphs in there that stood out on a couple of levels.

The ones that I found most interesting for the further insight they shed were:

...As executives rose to greet him with relieved applause, the moment signaled an historic shift for one of the world's most powerful technology companies. The iconic Intel would leave the Grove era behind and head into uncharted territory. Otellini will unveil the new strategy and new products on Jan. 5, at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas. Central to the effort will be the first new corporate logo in more than three decades and a $2.5 billion advertising and marketing blitz, BusinessWeek has learned...

Later in the article we learn that Centrino's initial marketing campaign was funded to the tune of $300 million, so 8 times that amount is certainly no joke.

...Still, Intel's first big success in diversification was only a half-step away from the core PC market. Will it be able to do as well in other areas? Consider Viiv. In the consumer electronics market where Viiv devices will be positioned as an all-in-one DVD player, game console, TiVo, and music jukebox, it faces plenty of big-name competitors. Meanwhile, brand-new challengers are appearing on the horizon. Sony Corp. (NYSE:SNE - News), with its PlayStation 3 due out in just a few months, aims to offer games, movies, and music on the device, which uses chips from IBM (NYSE:IBM - News). Cable and satellite providers such as Comcast Corp. (NasdaqNM:CMCSA - News) and DirecTV Group Inc. (NYSE: DTV - News) are adding more features and services to their set-top boxes, such as on-demand television shows and XM satellite radio...

In the context of the discussion, I would be remiss not to include the above paragraph.

...With that in mind, Otellini's Digital Home team has struck some of the biggest content deals to date with major Hollywood players and music services to entice both customers and consumers to the Viiv platform. The hundreds of millions it will dole out for marketing Viiv has partners like Sony and Philips Electronics (NYSE:pHG - News) salivating. They also seem to be genuinely impressed with the new attitude at Otellini's Intel. "I have seen more flexibility, more of an open mindset than in years past," says Sony Vice-President Mike Abary, who heads the company's Vaio PC business. "They realize that times have changed, that they don't have all the answers. So it has been much more collaborative working with them."...

The first bolded section surprises me because it seems to imply that indeed Intel is pursuing a distribution scheme with itself at the center, seemingly having signed distribution agreements already. I guess we'll see what's up on that front in four days. The second bolded part is just amusing since it showcases how broad a portfolio Sony has that VAIO will be pushing up against PS3 for the same segment, but I guess overall it's complementary in the end in getting Sony in the door by one means or another, rather than self-competing.

...Meantime, Intel execs seem open to easing their once ironclad ties to Microsoft. At the start, PC makers will have to use Microsoft's Windows Media Center Edition operating system to earn the Viiv brand -- and Intel's co-marketing dollars. But Intel says this may not continue, opening the door to Viiv machines with the Linux open-source operating system or even Apple's. Indeed, Kim says he expects some PC companies to ship Viiv boxes, without Windows...

I just didn't expect to ever see ViiV PC's cleared for the logo/marketing dollars without Windows, but I guess Intel is setting itself up to be OS agnostic in that sense.


@cthellis42: Great points on the Apple/Mac front. The Mac-mini evolution was brought into the whole thing because it's what's generally been viewed by the tech media as Apple's likely thrust into the space so I was just going with that, but truthfully what you're saying makes a great deal of sense, and maybe a strategy more akin to that is in fact what we'll see. Maybe MacWorld a couple of days after CES will shed some light.
 
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Shifty Geezer said:
To win the living room, you need to sell to more than just the Mac users. You need a device that doesn't cost a premium because the average person isn't going to spend a premium.

It depends on your definition of "Success".

(A) Economics
=========
One of the toughest part of doing "digital distribution to the masses" is that few can come up with numbers that make sense for consumers, and also appease the many parties involved. Granted, the size of the company is an advantage (i.e., they can afford to invest and lose lot's of $$$ initially), unfortunately it does not guarantee that the final economics will play out according to their plans.

As in the iPod case, the "closed" Mac user base (and the high margin allowed by them) is instrumental in crafting an initial economic arrangement that works. Once the beachhead is established, it will be easier to move down the tier should they choose to. In practice, this allows Apple to move forward as fast as possible while remaining viable.

(B) Good Grasp of Consumer Behaviour
=========================
Apple has completed many successful marketing experiments with consumers since they launched iPod+iTunes a few years ago. The recent video distribution over iTunes is one of them, but hardly the final chapter.

Their deep understanding of a layperson's world allows them to refine a "killer" end-to-end solution over the past few years. Apple's famed simplicity applies more than just use ease-of-use. The entire concept is simple, razor-sharp (easy to understand), relatively easy to execute and so can "ignite" easily when paired with their savvy mass marketing push.

The gaming world has an inherent "hard to use" limitations as alluded to by Nintendo. It's a double-edged sword. While we can leverage on the gamers' loyalty and the established console economics, they are also restricted within the gamers' crowd. We still do not know whether "casual gamers" is as big as people claimed.

(C) Capability
=========
They have the talent to do it well.

Unlike next gen game consoles that are hard to manufacture, Apple's solution is relatively simpler to make. Home Media PC has its own problems associated with a PC. If the ThinkSecret rumor is true, a small set-top box based on their Mac-mini's experiences is certainly possible.

Also, I think we have missed out the telcos and cable operators for the fight for the living room. You can look at 2wire.com for a strong entry (Yes, they are profitable and making inroads).

(D) Proprietary Platform that Works
=======================
If like iPod+iTunes, Apple's solution is focused on a small but common need, a man on the street may not mind being locked in to the Apple world. In fact the flip side side is: they might cherish the work of Apple for taking care of their needs.

Apple's living room plan may not be as grand as MS's multi-platform media hub strategy. But as long as it works 100% of the time, that's what count during the early stage. I already see quite a few XB360 support issues regarding connecting to XB360 to Media PC. And I don't know how to fix them (They should work, but didn't).

As for common complains about Apple's DRM platform, well...
(i) The final picture will be a few incompatible standards anyway (Think Cell Security, Think RIAA's Upcoming 'standards', Think UMD, Think BluRay, ...). Apple just got there early
(ii) Find workaround. I wrote my own Windows convertor to convert iTunes DRM'ed songs to play on my PSP. There are entrepreneurial folks who will try to bridge these gaps.
(iii) Should matters get out of hand, Apple will be taken to task in the future. They'd either adjust their strategy to compete better, or get hump'ed by regulations. In the latter case, it'd just be a slap in the wrist for them by that time, just like MS. But we'd have a de facto standard then (if it's that bad, I assumed Apple has squeezed others out).
 
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cthellis42 said:
Personally, I think it more likely Apple will come up with a set-top device focused on media-playing and computer/iPod connectivity in the vein of the Airport Express. It would allow them to make the cheapest, smallest, least-complicated device they could by only concentrating on the unique features such a device would need, and leaning on your PC--hopefully an Apple branded one, but they would certainly need to provite Windows support as well (getting iTunes and associated software onto even MORE Windows boxes...)--for those that it doesn't.
Interesting thought. Basically what you're describing is a Media Center Extender for the Mac. I would think they still have an issue with content, since other than downloading movies for iPod Video they don't really have a distribution mechanism similar to iPod music. And playing iPod videos on a bigger TV is probably not going to cut it.

But your reasoning that they will do what the more simple implementation is very compelling.

.Sis
 
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