1080p/60 HDMI Clarification

[BTOA]

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21475&highlight=hdmi

Here's the link to that thread I mentioned about. What a funny thread.

 

[MrSpiggott]

Effects budgets do not scale linearly with the framerate of the resulting film in the way you're suggesting. Rendering time/cost does, but that is only one of many parts of the budget. Your suggestion it would have no real gain by the way is nonsensical. A doubling of the frames per second would result in a significantly smoother visual experience, and hence increased realism.

I meant gain for the studio that's funding the movie. You're not going to get any more people buying movies than already do. What's in it for them to finance a higher frame rate? The movie industry could have gone higher frame rate years ago.
As for effects budgets scaling linearly, well that obviously depends on the work being carried out, but a lot of the bread and butter work is still just cleaning up in post like wire/scenery removal, colour grading etc. A lot of this can't just be done automatically.
I would imagine hand tuned motion capture would take longer and of course you'd double any cg rendering time.

 

[Rockster]

Not sure if accurate, but the last majornelson podcast corrects the 1080p/60 hdmi limitation by saying that it can't support 1080p/60 and 5.1 or greater digital audio simultaneously. Hence the newer higher bandwidth hdmi revision. I tend to agree with M$ decision about not waiting around for these emerging standards that will only ever benefit a miniscule percentage of users. By the time a 1080p/60 environment reaches even a million households, we'll be well in to the next next-generation of consoles. I saw a recent study that said 50% of HDTV owners don't even have an HD source (over air, cable, or satellite) connected to it. That's just sad!

 

[scooby_dooby]

But after this years CES, more 1080p sets will be seen in stores.

That's great, but Henshaw's comments are almost a year old and were basically correct at the time.

 

[pipo]

But after this years CES, more 1080p sets will be seen in stores.

And how many will do native 1080p60?

 

[Guden Oden]

Not sure if accurate, but the last majornelson podcast corrects the 1080p/60 hdmi limitation by saying that it can't support 1080p/60 and 5.1 or greater digital audio simultaneously. Hence the newer higher bandwidth hdmi revision.

This isn't correct. Just for starters, audio is sent along separate wires from video.

 

[expletive]

This isn't correct. Just for starters, audio is sent along separate wires from video.

You mean wires within the HDMI cable right? Not a seperate wire like an optical or SPDIF digital audio cable...

 

[London Geezer]

You mean wires within the HDMI cable right? Not a seperate wire like an optical or SPDIF digital audio cable...

Yes, separate but still inside the cable.

 

[pipo]

This isn't correct. Just for starters, audio is sent along separate wires from video.

The total bandwith is shared.

 

[pipo]

You mean wires within the HDMI cable right? Not a seperate wire like an optical or SPDIF digital audio cable...

Yes, separate but still inside the cable.

I think the cable has 19 cores (wires).

 

[NANOTEC]

The total bandwith is shared.

So the audio will use all 19 wires to send packets of data on each wire?

 

[pipo]

I don't think it works that way.

But I'm pretty sure they could come up with a version which would use all bandwith (~5 Gbps) for audio.

 

[expletive]

Here's an article I found posted elsewhere. I looked for the original so i oculd link back to it but wasnt able to find it so i'm posting most of it here:

Update On HDMI And the Next-Gen Formats
By Shane C. Buettner


February 5, 2006 — If you've been reading UAV's reviews you know that while 1080p displays are proliferating, the ability of these displays to actually accept a 1080p native signal is a rarity. And if you've been following our coverage of the next-gen disc formats you also know that DTS and Dolby have cooked up new audio formats that aren't based on the lossy compression schemes we've been living with on DVD for years. All of these developments are intertwined with the HDMI specs, as HDMI will be the carrier for both 1080p video and the new audio codecs. Here's the latest on what it all means.

HDMI specs have indeed continued to evolve. According to the HDMI Licensing LLC, version 1.2a was complete just before CES, and version 1.3 is anticipated to be locked down in the first half of this year. Despite speculation in some corners that only the most recent versions of the HDMI spec support 1080p, HDMI Licensing 's Leslie Chard informed me that all versions of the HDMI spec support 1080p video at 60Hz. It is up to the manufacturers of displays and other HDMI compliant devices to include support for 1080p throughout the architecture of the piece- the HDMI receivers, video decoders, video D-A converters, and all the video processing involved must support 1080p throughout. Given that 1080p sources aren't yet on the market, many display manufacturers seemingly have chosen not to absorb the expense in developing 1080p architectures throughout their displays.

Regarding when we're going to see 1080p, HD DVD's representative have indicated to me that at least the format's initial releases will be 1080i, not 1080p. Blu-ray titles however, have been specified in press releases as 1080p. We'll see. Given how few displays can accept 1080p native, and the specter of down-rez'd analog outputs haunts both formats, it's uncertain how the many people without 1080p native-compatible displays will get such a signal off of the discs that carry it. The processing involved in converting 1080p to 1080i seems extensive, and I've received no word as to whether players from either format will support such a provision- a provision that seems critically necessary for a good number of early adopters.

Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS' DTS-HD are the next-gen audio codecs that will be offered with HD DVD and Blu-ray. Both Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD will have backward-compatible core 5.1-channel soundtracks imbedded in their signals that can be carried over standard S/PDIF digital interfaces and decoded by the current generation DTS and Dolby Digital decoders in our AVRs and surround processors. Both formats are scalable and will offer much higher data rates than the current lossy formats, and both DTS and Dolby are offering full lossless compression formats with bit-for-bit reconstruction. Dolby's TrueHD uses Meridian Lossless Packing , while DTS' lossless format is the proprietary DTS-HD Master Audio. On HD DVD and Blu-ray both codecs will boast lossless coding for up to eight discrete channels of audio at resolution at least as high as 24-bit/96kHz. The catch is that the new codecs will only be carried digitally in their native form over HDMI 1.3.

This raises obvious questions given that HD DVD players are due in stores next month, while the HDMI 1.3 spec is due only for the first half of 2006. Blu-ray players are also targeted for the first half of '06, and the announcements we've seen for players indicate April to June. How can players incorporate a spec that isn't complete? Ditto goes for any HDMI-compatible surround processor released before the HDMI 1.3 spec is done.

Advisor to the Toshiba HD DVD Group Mark Knox offered a few potential answers. One, he intimated at CES 2006 that it's most likely that the initial HD DVD releases will have current standard DTS and Dolby Digital soundtracks, but at the highest data rates possible (DVDs usually run at lower audio rates to save more bits for the video transfer). Also, six channel analog outputs will be provided on the players, which could be used with the analog multichannel pass-through connectors found on many current AVRs and surround processors.

Going further, Knox also noted that HD DVD players will have the ability to "transcode" the new high-res Dolby and DTS formats to PCM, which can then be carried over the current HDMI spec and should be compatible with a number of current HDMI compatible surround processors and AVRs. Some Blu-ray titles have also been announced as carrying uncompressed digital audio soundtracks as well, which most likely means uncompressed PCM. HD DVD is also spec'd to carry up to eight discrete channels of uncompressed PCM at resolutions up to 24/96, while Blu-ray is spec'd to go all the way up to 24/192.

Knox also informed me that HD DVD players will be software updateable, but it is not yet known for certain that updating to HDMI 1.3 will be a software switch or whether new hardware will be required. All of this news, and the recent revelation that the AACS copy protection scheme to be used by both formats was just completed in the last couple of weeks, raises the question of whether either of these formats is fully complete and ready for prime time. Is the rush to market for both formats increasing the possibility that early adopters may not be able to take advantage of all the new features the new formats promise?

It seems like there will be NO change to the video specifications/abilites in any of the new or proposed HDMI revisions. The only thing thats changing is the audio side. IIRC here is what each revision supports with audio:

HDMI 1.0 - DD 5.1 bitstream
HDMI 1.1 - adds High Res PCM (DVD-Audio)
HDMI 1.2 - adds 1bit audio formats like DSD (SACD)
HDMI 1.3 - adds native support for Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, and DTS' DTS-HD

Hopefully this helps clarify what will or wont be included when the consoles announce their HDMI spec supported. For example, If the PS3 ships with HDMI 1.2, it will be able to send any format natively with the exception of the new HD audio formats. These will need to be converted to PCM and then sent digitally in that format (as per the HDMI 1.1 spec).

 

[London Geezer]

I don't think it works that way.

But I'm pretty sure they could come up with a version which would use all bandwith (~5 Gbps) for audio.

And why on earth would they do that?!
I'm pretty sure there are wires dedicated to sound and a lot more dedicated to video, it's the most logical solution, but i stand to be corrected if that's not the case. :smile:

 

[NavNucST3]

This weeks Major Nelson xxxcast had a very interesting talk about HD, it was brought up alot about 1080p30 and 1080p60, why the olympics suck in HD compared to DiscoveryHD. The guy talking is not a marketing guy ( I want to say he is a video engineer) he went on to say that 1080p is great when you are talking about 1080p60 but it has double the bandwidth requirements of 720p/1080i/1080p30 (which are all interestingly enough about the same bandwidth) definitely worth a listen.

NOTE* If you are not an engineer or a video geek, you may get the "deer in headlights" look about yourself.

 

[NavNucST3]

I think the cable has 19 cores (wires).

I believe type a is 19 and b is 29, or maybe I have them reversed.

 

[pipo]

And why on earth would they do that?!

They probably won't, I only tried to explain (not very good apparently) that the format has a certain bandwith which can be used as they see fit...

I'm pretty sure there are wires dedicated to sound and a lot more dedicated to video, it's the most logical solution, but i stand to be corrected if that's not the case. :smile:

I guess that makes sense.

 

[BTOA]

That's great, but Henshaw's comments are almost a year old and were basically correct at the time.

He was partially correct, but he's still spinning the fact that 1080p sets that accepts 1080p signal via HDMI were only a year away. He was making it sound like 1080p via HDMI was not a reality.

And how many will do native 1080p60?

If you mean by, what accept 1080p/60?, then only one set is avaliable atm, HP md5880n.

Also, we're barely into the beginning of the year, we can expect more 1080p sets this year.

If you want a 1080p set, I hear Sony's 50in SXRD can be had for $3k at Fryes Electronics.

 

[pipo]

He was partially correct, but he's still spinning the fact that 1080p sets that accepts 1080p signal via HDMI were only a year away. He was making it sound like 1080p via HDMI was not a reality.

Well...

If you mean by, what accept 1080p/60?, then only one set is avaliable atm, HP md5880n.

I think that's his point.

Another problem is manufacturers like to keep things unclear. All those (1024x1024) sets with 'HD-compatible' on it for example. Sure they accept the signal, but jeez...

The same is true for 'Accepting 1080p'. What's that anyway? Native? Upscaled? Only 30 frames?

You gotta love these guys.

 

[BTOA]

I think that's his point.

His point was that their system, Xbox 360, was not going to be able to do 1080p30/60 via HDMI and that PS3 doing 1080p30/60 via HDMI was not a reality.

Another problem is the manufacturers like to keep things unclear. All those (1024x1024) sets with 'HD-compatible' on it for example. Sure they accept the signal, but jeez...

The same is true for 'Accepting 1080p'. What's that anyway? Native? Upscaled? Only 30 frames?

You gotta love these guys.

And you think the average Joe would cares?