1080p/60 HDMI Clarification

[expletive]

I've seen quite a few people ask/debate about this on several of the console threads so i thought it would be useful to clear up the status of 1080p/60.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=644694

IIRC, the main additions to newer HDMI specs are the ability to pass high-res audio (DTS+, DDHD, SACD, DVD-A etc.)

 

[NavNucST3]

I've seen quite a few people ask/debate about this on several of the console threads so i thought it would be useful to clear up the status of 1080p/60.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=644694

IIRC, the main additions to newer HDMI specs are the ability to pass high-res audio (DTS+, DDHD, SACD, DVD-A etc.)

That's the same article that led me to the whole BD-J inclusion/exclusion (full-profile vs basic) question I asked in the pricing thread.

 

[BTOA]

HDMI Licensing Responds to Microsoft HD-DVD 1080p Issue

In a recent article in this space, Microsoft’s HD DVD program manager Sage Schreiner implied that the failure of many HD DVD players to output 1080p content is due to a limitation in the HDMI standard. This is incorrect. As the president of HDMI Licensing, LLC – the organization that licenses the HDMI Specification – I would like to set the record straight.

All versions of the HDMI Specification support 1080p/60Hz. HDMI has supported 1080p from the day HDMI version 1.0 was released in 2002. 1080p/60Hz requires a pixel transmission rate of 148.5MHz, which fits well within the current 165MHz rate of HDMI single-link.

Leslie Chard
President
HDMI Licensing, LLC

Inside Xbox 360: An interview with Jeff Henshaw (Part One)

Paul: Not to get completely off topic, but there are a couple of things from E3 I'd like to cover. One of them is that Sony talked about 1080p, and there was sort of an ... issue ... there about whether that was even real or not.

Jeff: The total number of 1080p-capable TVs on the planet today is ... zero. There are none. Sony has got a dual ... I want to make sure I say this right, because it's science fiction. They had dual HDMI outputs off the back of the console. And I think that there's some theory that you could take dual 1080i signals and interlace them together to have a progressively rendered scene. But again, there are no TVs that actually support this. I think most people are going to actually take one of the HDMI outputs and just feed it out at 1080i.

Atleast tech people know to never trust M$'s engineers when it come to being partially truthful.

 

[Bobbler]

Atleast tech people know to never trust M$'s engineers when it come to being partially truthful.

Well, he was right about one thing... what he was saying was "science fiction."

 

[Sis]

Atleast tech people know to never trust M$'s engineers when it come to being partially truthful.

Jeff Henshaw is not an engineer at Microsoft.

 

[Sis]

Well, he was right about one thing... what he was saying was "science fiction."

But to be fair--and this is the part I really struggle with--is that the spec may support it but none of the HDMI chips actually implemented it. This was a huge debate back when "1080p" sets were being announced and it was determined that there was no way of feeding it a 1080p signal (I believe some allowed it over other alternative inputs, but not HDMI).

As the press release says:

As with many functions that HDMI enables (such as DVD-Audio and SACD) it is up to the manufacturer to choose to implement 1080p. Until recently, many manufacturers have chosen not to do so.

Henshaw, and other MS reps, I think were just playing loosely with the term HDMI.

 

[BTOA]

Jeff Henshaw is not an engineer at Microsoft.

Jeff Henshaw, the Executive Producer for Xbox Digital Entertainment at Microsoft. Jeff was part of the team that launched the original Xbox, and these days he's behind the push to make Xbox 360 a mainstream entertainment device.

Ops, my fault.

 

[ERP]

Atleast tech people know to never trust M$'s engineers when it come to being partially truthful.

To be fair he was right, go check out a Samsung 1080p DLP TV, they won't actually take a 1080p signal, just 1080i which they up convert.

Some of this years models will take a 1080px30 signal (the HP ones at least). I don't know of a set that will take 1080px60, simply because there are no available signal sources whether the connector can support it or not.

1080 is still a bit of a standards mess.

 

[dukmahsik]

there is no 1080p standard thus the confusion and mess

 

[Sis]

there is no 1080p standard thus the confusion and mess

This is wrong. Read the link in the first post.

 

[expletive]

But to be fair--and this is the part I really struggle with--is that the spec may support it but none of the HDMI chips actually implemented it. This was a huge debate back when "1080p" sets were being announced and it was determined that there was no way of feeding it a 1080p signal (I believe some allowed it over other alternative inputs, but not HDMI).

You sure you dont have "they wont accept a 1080p signal" confused with "there was no way of feeding it a 1080p signal" ? Because for the vast majority of 1080p sets, theyll only take 1080i.

there is no 1080p standard thus the confusion and mess

Yes, IIRC 1080p is not currently part of the HDTV stadard.

 

[Sis]

You sure you dont have "they wont accept a 1080p signal" confused with "there was no way of feeding it a 1080p signal" ? Because for the vast majority of 1080p sets, theyll only take 1080i.

I meant, the HDMI input on the TV sets weren't built to receive a 1080p signal.

Yes, IIRC 1080p is not currently part of the HDTV stadard.

According to this document, it is:

http://www.ebu.ch/CMSimages/en/tec_doc_t3299_tcm6-23327.pdf

However, I couldn't find a document that says, "This is the HDTV standard." And I will be the first to admit that the whole thing is dreadfully confusing.

 

[expletive]

I meant, the HDMI input on the TV sets weren't built to receive a 1080p signal. .

According to the HDMI consortium, any HDMI port that conforms to any HDMI spec can accept 1080p so i don think the actual HDMI input is the culprit. What i think is more likely however, is that there might be some bit of electronics upstream of the HDMI port itself that is bandwidth-limited for 1080i (video switcher, ADC, etc).

According to this document, it is:

http://www.ebu.ch/CMSimages/en/tec_doc_t3299_tcm6-23327.pdf

However, I couldn't find a document that says, "This is the HDTV standard." And I will be the first to admit that the whole thing is dreadfully confusing.

I'm getting a little out of my depth here at this level of detail but the broadcast standards may be slightly different than the HDTV specs. But yes, very confusing.

 

[ninelven]

1080p 24 and 1080p 30 are standards... 1080p 60 is not AFAIK.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Atleast tech people know to never trust M$'s engineers when it come to being partially truthful.

What're you talking about? He's pretty much right on, at the time of that interview you could count the # of 1080p TV's that are actually on the market on 1 hand, still can pretty much, so maybe not 0%, more like 0.001%.

btw: these are NATIVE 1080p tv's, not ones marketed as 1080p but actually recieve a 1080i signal.

 

[NavNucST3]

Here is a link to the ATSC standards, its a pdf, just use the search feature for 1080, on page 33 there is a chart.

For the ATSC standard for MPEG-2 29.97 and 30 are the standards for 1080i, for 1080p they are: 23.976, 24, 29.97, and 30.

There is also a footer with this info:

2 Note that 1088 lines are actually coded in order to satisfy the MPEG-2 requirement that the coded vertical size
be a multiple of 16 (progressive scan) or 32 (interlaced scan). The bottom 8 lines are black, per MPEG rules.

 

[expletive]

Here is a link to the ATSC standards, its a pdf, just use the search feature for 1080, on page 33 there is a chart.

For the ATSC standard for MPEG-2 29.97 and 30 are the standards for 1080i, for 1080p they are: 23.976, 24, 29.97, and 30.

There is also a footer with this info:

2 Note that 1088 lines are actually coded in order to satisfy the MPEG-2 requirement that the coded vertical size
be a multiple of 16 (progressive scan) or 32 (interlaced scan). The bottom 8 lines are black, per MPEG rules.

Good find, thanks!

 

[MrSpiggott]

1080p 24 and 1080p 30 are standards... 1080p 60 is not AFAIK.

That's what I understand as well. I don't even know of any post production systems that offer that output as a special option. This will obviously be standardised at some point, as well as ever increasing resolutions, but I don't see it being very relevent in the medium term. HDpanel sales will be driven by the media that can be played on them and the movie industry is still dominated by 24fps. Imagine how expensive films like 'Lord of the Rings' or 'King Kong' would have been if they'd required 60 effects shots a second rather than 24. You are looking at potentialy doubling the effects budget with no real gain in returns. So even if your HDmedia and HDpanel of choice has the technical ability to work at 1080p 60, I really doubt it'll be used very often. And if it's not going to be used very often will panel makers, other than for high end, support it?
Just my opinion....

 

[Guden Oden]

Imagine how expensive films like 'Lord of the Rings' or 'King Kong' would have been if they'd required 60 effects shots a second rather than 24. You are looking at potentialy doubling the effects budget with no real gain in returns.

Effects budgets do not scale linearly with the framerate of the resulting film in the way you're suggesting. Rendering time/cost does, but that is only one of many parts of the budget. Your suggestion it would have no real gain by the way is nonsensical. A doubling of the frames per second would result in a significantly smoother visual experience, and hence increased realism.

 

[BTOA]

What're you talking about? He's pretty much right on, at the time of that interview you could count the # of 1080p TV's that are actually on the market on 1 hand, still can pretty much, so maybe not 0%, more like 0.001%.

btw: these are NATIVE 1080p tv's, not ones marketed as 1080p but actually recieve a 1080i signal.

It was aimed towards the thread and people who were arguing in favor of his statement last summer, which was spun off to how current HDMI signal wasn't able to send a 1080p signal.

A thread that went on for more than 5 pages arguing about how HDMI could not support a 1080p signal.

But after this years CES, more 1080p sets will be seen in stores.