Battlestar Galactica second season premieres tonight

[nutball]

Babylon 5 destroys any other scifi show out there. Seasons 2-4 were incredible with great acting and even better writing. I hope 1 day BSG can get into babylon 5's league. I doubt any other scifi show will be able to beat the build up to and the excution of the babylon 5 episode severed dreams.

Gah, don't get me started on B5. The first series or two were excellent, they clearly had a well thought out long-term storyline, and the build-up-play was very good. It smacked of some of the old classic sci-fi in that sense (Foundation trilogy springs to mind).

Then they introduced time travel. This completely ruined the whole concept of the serieses. I stopped watching after the end of that series. When wil sci-fi writers get it into their heads that time travel is not clever, it just smacks of lazy writing ... a way to magically get answers to some conundrum that would otherwise take too much thought to get around?

B5 spent forever building up a physically plausible Universe, right down to the kinematics of the fighter ships, etc., ... then they go and slap time travel in there. I mean ... WTF?

They also copped out on the big war with the Shadows too, after building it up for months and months:

Mr Human: Oi, Shadows, naff off!!!
Mr Shadows: Oh, alright then, cya!
Mr Human: And you lot, Vorlons, you can bugger off too!!!
Mr Vorlons: Sure, no probs, I'll get my coat!

It was a very very wasted opportunity to do a multi-series sci-fi show properly.

 

[The_Wolf_Who_Cried_Boy]

Then they introduced time travel. This completely ruined the whole concept of the serieses. I stopped watching after the end of that series. When wil sci-fi writers get it into their heads that time travel is not clever, it just smacks of lazy writing ... a way to magically get answers to some conundrum that would otherwise take too much thought to get around?

B5 spent forever building up a physically plausible Universe, right down to the kinematics of the fighter ships, etc., ... then they go and slap time travel in there. I mean ... WTF?

I disagree
The War Without End episodes nicely tied several story threads together. Time travel was used once in the entire series as a key plot device, hardly gratuitous, it's not like every second week Delenn took a Whitestar for a spin back to the 21st century to save whales......Would you argue the same for the shows use of telepathy?
I found the calulated use of such sci-fi staples (cliches if you like) part of B5's charm, dark and brooding enough to be engaging but still maintaining a dose of familiar saturday matinee heroics.

They also copped out on the big war with the Shadows too, after building it up for months and months:

To an extent yes, but, like, their the first ones, the mortal races would be squashed like bugs in open combat with them (as the Shadows merrily demonstrated). How else would you have resolved that story arc?

It was a very very wasted opportunity to do a multi-series sci-fi show properly.

JMS did the best he could with what the studios provided him, IIRC he had less than half of Treks budget to work with per episode.

 

[Gollum]

Babylon 5 destroys any other scifi show out there. Seasons 2-4 were incredible with great acting and even better writing. I hope 1 day BSG can get into babylon 5's league. I doubt any other scifi show will be able to beat the build up to and the excution of the babylon 5 episode severed dreams.

Gah, don't get me started on B5. The first series or two were excellent, they clearly had a well thought out long-term storyline, and the build-up-play was very good. It smacked of some of the old classic sci-fi in that sense (Foundation trilogy springs to mind).

Then they introduced time travel. This completely ruined the whole concept of the serieses. I stopped watching after the end of that series. When wil sci-fi writers get it into their heads that time travel is not clever, it just smacks of lazy writing ... a way to magically get answers to some conundrum that would otherwise take too much thought to get around?

B5 spent forever building up a physically plausible Universe, right down to the kinematics of the fighter ships, etc., ... then they go and slap time travel in there. I mean ... WTF?

They also copped out on the big war with the Shadows too, after building it up for months and months:

Mr Human: Oi, Shadows, naff off!!!
Mr Shadows: Oh, alright then, cya!
Mr Human: And you lot, Vorlons, you can bugger off too!!!
Mr Vorlons: Sure, no probs, I'll get my coat!

It was a very very wasted opportunity to do a multi-series sci-fi show properly.

I agree with quest55720, seasons 2-4 of B5 are probably the finest SF TV to this date. Although I haven't seen the new BGS yet and am highly excited about it after reading through this thread. Firefly was also good, but was cancelled before it had a chance to really shine, maybe Serenity can fix that.

There was a total of 3 epsides that featured time travel, 3 out of 110. The implications of those episodes did carry through the overall arc, but you'd have to do serious nit-picking to use those 3 episodes (which, IMO, were very well done, War Without End Part 1&2 in particular) to cast a bad light on the other 107.

I also felt the Shadow War end was a bit anti-climactic, but I quickly got over it and even understood why it had to be handled that way. With an enemy as overpowering as the shadows, the war would have to end "differently". It also fit into the whole theme of the First Ones as it was set up over the years. All of that doesn't change the fact that the whole 3 and a half season build up to that point was simply mind-bogglingly good entertainment most of the time and the series moved on to another very important and maybe even more dramatic (more relevant to human nature) conflict from there on..

You also have to consider that B5 was the first show (and probably still is the only one), that had its full 5 years story arc planned ahead of time. It was always planned to be a 5 year show, however every season faced a new battle against cancellation. And that despite for a genre show very low production costs, always finishing on time/in-budget and good ratings (especially considering the way its syndication was handled). When season 4 got the go, all signs were pointing towards that being the last (with the WB network being disbanded and all). So JMS (the creator and main writer) decided that he would try to tell the most important parts of his story within this season, in hope of telling the remaining smaller arcs in season 5, should that be produced against all odds.

That's why season 4 is so intense, telling more story and having more conflict than any show I have ever seen in just 22 episodes. When season 5 did happen (through TNT picking up the show), it suffered because of that, but in the end B5 as a whole is still some of the finest SF to ever grace the TV. Most other shows, even non-SF, aren't even in the same league when it somes to story, coninuity, drama and character development...

 

[L233]

With an enemy as overpowering as the shadows, the war would have to end "differently".

Very true. I think for some people the only thing acceptable is the good old asskicking. Normally, the good guys figure out some weakness or come up with a clever plan to beat the bad guys. B5 didn't resort to the cliché and that's, IMO, a good thing.

 

[DemoCoder]

I agree about the shadow war nutball, but the stuff taking place on Centauri Prime was pretty good. I though the tragedy of Londo (and G'Kar) in the last 2 seasons made up for other defects in the series.

The time travel stuff doesn't bother me that much, anymore than the telepathy. I just wanted a real fight against the shadows (like Delenn kept saying, they defeated the shadows 10,000 and 1,000 years ago), maybe using telepaths to attack the ships.

On the other hand, that would just fall into the cycle of the unending wars every thousand years, so I guess they had to resolve it. I had no problem with the way it was resolved, just with the abruptness of it all.

I think the plot "the younger races have learned of the shadows/vorlons attempts to manipulate them, and want to be left alone" was doable, but I am not convinced they pulled it off in that episode.

 

[quest55720]

I agree about the shadow war nutball, but the stuff taking place on Centauri Prime was pretty good. I though the tragedy of Londo (and G'Kar) in the last 2 seasons made up for other defects in the series.

The time travel stuff doesn't bother me that much, anymore than the telepathy. I just wanted a real fight against the shadows (like Delenn kept saying, they defeated the shadows 10,000 and 1,000 years ago), maybe using telepaths to attack the ships.

On the other hand, that would just fall into the cycle of the unending wars every thousand years, so I guess they had to resolve it. I had no problem with the way it was resolved, just with the abruptness of it all.

I think the plot "the younger races have learned of the shadows/vorlons attempts to manipulate them, and want to be left alone" was doable, but I am not convinced they pulled it off in that episode.

The shadow war was supposed to last another half season but the threat of cancelation forced them to wrap it up early. They thought they had to finish up the show by the end of season 4. It was not until the very end of season 4 TNT picked the show up out of no where. The rest of season 4 should of been the shadow war and season 5 was supposed to be taking down president clark and freeing earth and mars. I am thankfull they did it they way they did because I would of been scared for life if the show would of been cancelled before they got them scum in nightwatch. It is a shame that TNT picked the show up so late because as great as B5 was it would of been mind blowing if JMS would of been able to follow through with his vision.

The whole lando and G'Kar story arc was just mind blowing. When I think of B5 I think of the fall of lando as much as I do the shadow war or the taking back of earth from president clark.

The end of the shadow war was about the younger races being old enough to stand on thier own. The shadows and vorlons were just like over bearing parents and it was time for the kids or younger races to move out and live thier own lives. Since the younger races could not move any where the first ones left beyond the rim. I thought it was very very well done just on that apsect alone just rushed due to time constraints.

 

[Gollum]

Some pretty good points DemoCoder, I especially agree about what was going on on Centauri Prime. The whole Londo/G'Kar/Cartagia angle played out really well and the Londo/G'Kar scenes are brilliant stuff.

I also wish the whole resolution of the war had gotten more exposition. A couple more episodes, like it was originally planned, would have really helped. The way it finally played out was fine story-wise, just seemed a bit rushed (which it was).

When I think of B5 I think of the fall of lando as much as I do the shadow war or the taking back of earth from president clark.

Pretty much all of the characters have been through dramatic changes throughout the show. That's part of the reason why I think no other show to date has really lived up to the standard set by B5. Its not only the epic storyarc from beginning to end, but the realistic ways in which characters evolve and change over time, just as the universe around them.

 

[SsP45]

Some pretty good points DemoCoder, I especially agree about what was going on on Centauri Prime. The whole Londo/G'Kar/Cartagia angle played out really well and the Londo/G'Kar scenes are brilliant stuff.

I also wish the whole resolution of the war had gotten more exposition. A couple more episodes, like it was originally planned, would have really helped. The way it finally played out was fine story-wise, just seemed a bit rushed (which it was).

When I think of B5 I think of the fall of lando as much as I do the shadow war or the taking back of earth from president clark.

Pretty much all of the characters have been through dramatic changes throughout the show. That's part of the reason why I think no other show to date has really lived up to the standard set by B5. Its not only the epic storyarc from beginning to end, but the realistic ways in which characters evolve and change over time, just as the universe around them.

Yep, Londo had about the best character arc throughout the whole 5 years. He and G'Kar had amazing character development for a 5 year run.
________
BABI MAC PROVED THAT

 

[RussSchultz]

I couldn't get past the silly hair the centauri had. I kept thinking grandpa on the munsters.

 

[Gollum]

LOL, I can see where you're coming from, but IMO its a fitting haircut for imperialistic, scheming wanna be aristocrats. The cultural background of the Centauri makes this freak of fashion quite plausible. And if you look at what kind of wigs and hats were in fashion in comparable human societies (like the British Victorian Age), Londo's haircut suddenly doesn't look that silly anymore.

Overall I think B5 had way beyond average makeup design for its aliens. While most aliens are of course humanoid in nature (no way around that on the budget of a TV show), their makeup is often quite elaborate and doesn't suffer from the typical blue paint/plastic nose/pointy ears syndrome so common in SF.

Anyway, enough B5, this topic was about BSG, wasn't it? Hope I'll get to watch it soon, sounds like a good show!

 

[Mariner]

Personally, I've always been a fan of the Star Trek make-up style.

How to make a Klingon: Get a bloke and attach a Cornish Pasty to his head. Voila - done!

I'm almost certain I saw an episode of Star Trek in which an alien race was created using a similarly brilliant concoction of human + toasted cheese sandwich.

 

[Thunderbird]

I don't know if I was just imagining it but Jamie Barber's accent seemed much better than the first season. I never really bought it then but now I can forget he's actually british.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

I haven't seen any of the new BSG episodes yet. I don't want to jump in the middle, so I guess I'll have to watch the entire run of seasons as they come out on DVD.

As for SG-1/SGA/Trek, I was always a Trek fan. I loved the original series, camp and all. ST:TNG was terrific... always thought Patrick Stewart was a tremendous actor, but the "create new technology and then forget about it" habit got on my nerves as well. And ST:TNG never had much in the way of story arcs. A few episodes that were tied together here and there, sometimes revisiting an episode from several seasons prior to finish up or follow up a storyline. Overall much in the them of the original series, a bunch of SciFi short stories. STS9 had some decent story arcs and human interest stories, but I was never very fond of it. Weak on acting, weak on action, weak on good plot developments, with a smattering of enough good stuff to make some episodes entertaining. ST:Voyager was fairly good, since there was a very coherent storyline that they stuck to. Wasn't fond of most of the actors (7of9 was pretty hot though ), and they got a bit too "technophile" in a geeky way sometimes. Not bad, but not great.

ST:Enterprise sucked. Just blew. I was so hyped about the series, and it reaked from about the second episode on. I had no idea they let it survive for 4 seasons... I was pretty sure it had a second, but I assumed it died after that.

SG-1 is terrific. The Stargate movie, of course, was exceptional. Finally a SciFi movie that had a somewhat believable plot line, good hard science (if somewhat out in left field), and ties to ancient Earth culture. Genious. SG-1 really got off to a rocky start with many episodes in the first season or two that were very Trek like, but enough of the movie storyline intact to make it interesting. The second season started to mature the plot, introducing the Tok'ra and the idea of the other advanced races that later heavily contribute to the plot. When they hit upon the idea of the ancients being the ascended, the series really took off (if perhaps leaning a little more towards fantasy as opposed to traditional SciFi). I guess that's what makes SG-1 such a good series to me... an almost perfect mix of ancient culture (almost in an Indian Jones kinda way), SciFi, and Fantasy. And they've set up the story well enough to not have to resort to the cheesy explanations the ST writers were constantly forced into (nor the need for cheesy makeup... the story explains why most everyone looks human, though I often wonder how they all speak modern English ). I guess the thing I dislike most about the SG-1 development is that Danial Jackson has died just a few too many times. However, I think he's one of the best actors on the series, and has one of the most realistic and engaging characters, so I can't complain too much.

SG-Atlantis is also pretty good. It enjoys the coherent story already developed, and gets back to its SciFi roots. It definitely got off to a better start than SG-1, but I have no idea if it will develop into a better series overall. For now, I'm not sure which I enjoy more... the way they've linked the storylines its almost like two episodes of the same show each week: you know the stories are going to cross from time to time, and you need to keep up with both to really know what's going on.

 

[Trawler]

I was a B5 fan back in the day, but lost interest after the whole Shadow War debacle. Democoder hit the nail on the head - it was just too abrupt. IMO, a better (or more rested) writer could have done a much better job with Into the Fire. JMS started losing the plot as soon as he took on writing every single episode.

BSG, while nowhere near as epic (as yet), has really hit a chord with me. Excellent writing, and acting talent across the board is far superior. Take Edward James Olmos for example, he's leagues ahead of Bruce Boxlietner. Lets face it, if it weren't for Andreas, Peter and Mira B5 would have been sorely lacking in the acting talent department.

I'm just hoping that BSG doesn't drop the ball this season...

 

[silence]

I'm just hoping that BSG doesn't drop the ball this season...

from what was done in first episode... i dont think they will.


**SPOILER**



now you have Starbuck and Helo back on Caprica, with another copy of...whats her name... on the way prolly to Kobol where they should find out how to reach Earth... but she is feeling much more like true human then any other clone Cylons did (i remember other types saying that)....

and that damn "they have a plan" thing.... i would bribe authors just to tell me what it is..... story arc is obviously long with very well done episodes...

i just wonder how many seasons they planned acctually...

 

[ZoinKs!]

I just wanted a real fight against the shadows (like Delenn kept saying, they defeated the shadows 10,000 and 1,000 years ago), maybe using telepaths to attack the ships.

Except they really didn't really defeat them because the Shadows didn't seek total victory at that time.

The Shadows believed conflict would make the younger races better, more advanced, more evolved. Sure, there'd be death and destruction, the annihilation of some planets and the occasional extinction of entire species.

So in the last Shadow war, they attack the Minbari. The Minbari are losing and might get wiped out. But if a species is too weak to survive, it doesn't deserve to survive.

Then Valen appears and organizes the Minbari. They start kicking the Shadows and their minions around. The Shadows see this and decide the Minbari deserve to live. So, rather then bringing out their planet killers and wiping out the Minbari, they fall back to hidden corners and allow the Minbari time to grow.

Valen transforms Minbari society and even introduces new DNA to the species. They rapidly develop a new religion (In Valen's Name!), new culture, and new form of government (the Grey Council). The Shadows see this and are pleased. A younger race has advanced; the Minbari passed the test; everything the Shadows have done has been validated.

The Shadows watch and wait a thousand years, but the Minbari have stagnated. In the meantime, a vigorous and ambitious young race has rocketed out of nowhere and wiped out the Dilgar. Perhaps this impressive new species could be useful... Perhaps more conflict would wake the Minbari out of complacency...


On topic: BSG Rox!

 

[silence]

On topic: BSG Rox!

thats the spirit..... or else i'll have to DL whole B5.... and then goodbye life, work and GF...

 

[Gollum]

Why DL when the DVD boxsets are available so cheap and have some cool extras?

IMO, a better (or more rested) writer could have done a much better job with Into the Fire. JMS started losing the plot as soon as he took on writing every single episode.

I disagree. The entire season 3 was written by JMS and with only very few exceptions, its an absolutely mind-blowing season. Severed Dreams sent shivers down my spine and there's an almost ridiculously high number of extremely cool episodes beyond that.

Except for the somewhat rushed resolution of the Shadow War, season 4 is also very good. The buildup to Into the Fire is really fantastic and the whole Earth/Mars story that follows it is resolved in a very cool manner IMO. There's only a couple of weak filler episodes, hardly more than in season 3.

Its season 5 where the tax of writing everything himself really seemed to affect JMS' writing. Then again, nobody has ever done anything comparable in TV history, and there's probably a good reason for it. There's some good story and episodes to season 5 too, but overall its probably the weakest season of the show (got more and better storyarcs than season 1, but lacks its "naive" charm)...