GT4 or Forza? Which one do you think will take the crown?

[London Geezer]

^^ I'm surprised we're actually responding to him. I'm over on this thread till the guy goes.
It's a GT and Forza thread and he comes up with Sega stuff which has nothing to do with it. All to brag about the very questionable accuracy and superiority of a game that was good back then, but got old very quickly.

 

[Pepto-Bismol]

How does better simulating realworld physics reduce playability?

There are more things to worry about. :|

As simulators try to imitate the staggering complexities of reality, they drag real world concerns into the virtual realm ...

GT dethroned previous franchises, e.g. Ridge Racer, by a combination better physics, game design and structure, sheer number of customizable cars, tracks, soundtrack, and shiny graphics. But the core game is the physics engine!

True. The inaugural title was one of the quintessential simulators of its day, overlaying a "Jay Leno" collection of automobiles with breathtaking mechanics and eye-opening cinematography.

But as PlayStation became more mainstream -- and Gran Turismo the de facto standard among driving games -- SCEI began pandering to an increasingly broad audience, gradually shifting their focus from simulation to cinema.

As evidenced by GT3, what sells isn't a harsh reality but a romanticized image of it.

 

[thop]

6 time world champion Michael Schumacher practising on F355

I think it's safe to say 7 times world champion

 

[Phil]

But as PlayStation became more mainstream -- and Gran Turismo the de facto standard among driving games -- SCEI began pandering to an increasingly broad audience, gradually shifting their focus from simulation to cinema.

After having witnessed and actually played GT4, I'd have to disagree. I have played all instances of the series extensively and I have no doubt that the physic engine and an accurate representation of the cars is their highest priority. Reading any of Yamauchi's interviews makes it evident that he's a car lover and that's what the GT series is about: bringing those cars as realisticly as possible onto the screen and experiencing them. A proper distinction between the 500+ cars is only possible once the game can actively stimulate/simulate their real world behavior as realisticly as possible. The more accurate this is, the better the distinction (which is on a completely different level in GT4 compared to the previous installements).

Your claims are infact a contradiction to the game Gran Turismo 4 itself.

As evidenced by GT3, what sells isn't a harsh reality but a romanticized image of it.

Please elaborate. If possible, with specific "romanticized" examples.

 

[Cryect]

In general, most people seem to complain about the ABS and TCS. Which if I was to make it easier for people definately two places to put it.

 

[maskrider]

In general, most people seem to complain about the ABS and TCS. Which if I was to make it easier for people definately two places to put it.

They can be turned off easily in the options if the people who complained bothered to read the manual or check the options.

 

[Cryect]

Heh I'm just saying by default thats what people dislike (heh plus you have to turn it off for each new car).

 

[maskrider]

Heh I'm just saying by default thats what people dislike (heh plus you have to turn it off for each new car).

Well, I said "people who complained". That shouldn't be a problem since buying a new car is not a very frequent action in the game, changing the settings are more like it for people who don't like TCS and ASM.

 

[Pepto-Bismol]

I have played all instances of the series extensively and I have no doubt that the physic engine and an accurate representation of the cars is their highest priority.

Let's play Devil's advocate ... and assume you are correct.

How will we rationalize all of the logical fallacies wedged between our premise ("Gran Turismo accurately simulates vehicle dynamics") and its conclusion, "Gran Turismo is realistic"?

For if the premise is true, then racing will not be an intuitive behavior, but rather one gleaned through years of experience. Newfangled drivers are likely to find that even a humble ride, when pushed to its performance limit, can suddenly become unwieldy -- a turn of events that becomes more catastrophic as power and speeds increase ... :|

There are other instances, but suffice it to say that, at heart, simulation supports a play style and mechanic that is shamefully exclusive.

This is why the best-selling games aren't gung ho simulators.

 

[j^aws]

I have played all instances of the series extensively and I have no doubt that the physic engine and an accurate representation of the cars is their highest priority.

Let's play Devil's advocate ... and assume you are correct.

How will we rationalize all of the logical fallacies wedged between our premise ("Gran Turismo accurately simulates vehicle dynamics") and its conclusion, "Gran Turismo is realistic"?

For if the premise is true, then racing will not be an intuitive behavior, but rather one gleaned through years of experience. Newfangled drivers are likely to find that even a humble ride, when pushed to its performance limit, can suddenly become unwieldy -- a turn of events that becomes more catastrophic as power and speeds increase ... :|

There are other instances, but suffice it to say that, at heart, simulation supports a play style and mechanic that is shamefully exclusive.

This is why the best-selling games aren't gung ho simulators.

GT is not exclusively a simulator, it has two play modes, an arcade style mode and a simulation style mode. The dynamic range and breadth of it's physics engine allows for these modes.

It models the driving characteristics of the simplest family car, to the pinnacle of driving technology, of formula one cars. it models different road surface charecteristics, rain, dirt, tarmac etc, aerodynamics, independant suspensions, drive trains, rear-front-4wd etc the list could go on and on...the physics engine can differentiate the nunances between the staggering amount of cars (and all their adjustable settings) and feed it back to the users through a simple controller.

Real driving is not intuitive, you have to *learn* and in a similar fashion GT to be fully appreciated, you have to *learn* and pass all the Gts driving tests etc.

GT is a rare breed of game in this market that can be picked up by a novice/ casual gamer to have a blast in the arcade mode and *still* satisfy *hardcore* gamers for months. An essence of a true triple AAA game that sells by the boat load.

The physics engine has been adapted/tweaked for realism and playability (certain elements toned down) and I'll re-iterate the point that the *heart* of GT is the physics engine married to the control system. The shiny graphics engine is just the icing on the cake! So is the cinematography (which is mainly for the purpose of dynamic replays : there are only a few playable in-game viewpoints anyway.) 8)

 

[Phil]

For if the premise is true, then racing will not be an intuitive behavior, but rather one gleaned through years of experience. Newfangled drivers are likely to find that even a humble ride, when pushed to its performance limit, can suddenly become unwieldy -- a turn of events that becomes more catastrophic as power and speeds increase ... :|

There are other instances, but suffice it to say that, at heart, simulation supports a play style and mechanic that is shamefully exclusive.

While I see the point you are making and tend to agree with it in most cases, I think Polyphony was able to get it right. Let me explain why:

Just about anyone can drive a car. While some have the potential of being racing pilots (either through experience, practise or talent), some simply do not. In Gran Turismo it's quite similar:

Anyone can play Gran Turismo - but not everyone can master it.

This becomes painfully obvious when seeing the sadly created AI which doesn't make for a challenge. The AI is that weak and dumb, that just about anyone who plays the game fairly nice (meaning correct usage of breaking and taking curves) can win races and proceed in the game. If you've ever tried challenging best times though OR competing with other fellow racers over the internet, you'll see that those times and the times an average GT bloke will be getting are world's apart. You don't need to be a racing professional or enthusiast to win races. The experience you are talking about though is required if you wish to master it.

Then there's also the major difference if playing with a wheel or the standard controller input. I've played both Gran Turismo 3 and 4 (proloque) with and without the wheel. Let me just say that the sense of realism isn't exactly mind blowing nor would I dare to call it that when playing with a controller. How could it? You don't drive cars with controllers. While the car still reacts in a realistic way to your input, digital controllers are not the best way to submit your input especially with a simulator. Thanks to this - and unsurprisingly - most people play Gran Turismo with the controller, the game is also quite a bit easier but at the same time less challenging. Going on to using a wheel though, you'll immediately notice the increase in difficulty. The wheel is incredibly precise, so getting the turns right is largely dependend on your the precision you apply to your steering, breaking and accelerating. A half of a second too long on the accelerator will ruin your 'perfect' acceleration - even a fraction of a second too long on the breakes will influence your lap time by large factors in the seconds. Doing the licence tests and aiming for gold (I almost got all of them btw, yay!), you'll likely spend hours of trying to get all those details right just to beat your previous lap time.

So to get back to the point: there's a difference in how a person plays the game. Just because a professional isn't required to complete the game, doesn't mean it doesn't require the talent of a professional to effectively master it. There's a world of a difference between how the average player plays the game and the 'hardcore' does - which is the point in why the game is so immensely successful (coppled with the marketing, the overall package and the graphics behind it). This however doesn't necessarely rule out it being realistic.

Do note though that in the arguments above, I was refering to the way the cars are modelled as accurately as possible to their real-world counterpart and how they move and react on the surface simulated in the game. The other factors that are clearly not realistic is the AI, the missing real-time damage as well as more advanced factors such as simulated wind and other influences (petrol consumption, fuel, engine overheating etc). Obviously, todays hardware is not capable of simulating everything and it probably will never be - yet those missing simulated influences help the game to be more open especially towards average players - players that don't know anything about racing or do through GT. Given that the game's primarey aspect are the cars - it is unsurprising that Polyphony has tried to model them as realistic as possible - and at the same time made it possible for anyone, may it be professional or not, to enjoy the game.

I guess what you were refering to is the 'overall package' (including the lack of those simulated effects that I refered to) as not being realistic - I however was primarely talking about the realism of the cars and their characteristics on the track, which makes it realistic enough for the purouse it serves (and that is to experience the cars and love them for all their advantages and disadvantages and challenges).

 

[Pepto-Bismol]

I guess what you were refering to is the 'overall package' (including the lack of those simulated effects that I refered to) as not being realistic - I however was primarely talking about the realism of the cars and their characteristics on the track, which makes it realistic enough for the purouse it serves (and that is to experience the cars and love them for all their advantages and disadvantages and challenges).

What you're talking about when you talk about "experience" is ambiance really -- something that seems real but isn't quite reality. And in a way, those feelings can be more compelling than fact. *

Truth is reality is filled with things that are not always what they appear to be. So while the experts may reassure us otherwise, 100mph in a Peugeot 206 still feels distinctly different than in a Porsche 997.

Ditto for a myriad of psychological tricks that our senses can play on our psyche. The "hills" that surround San Francisco's Lombard Street, for instance, feel as though they are almost vertical, when in reality they are nowhere near perpendicular.

If the secret to Gran Turismo's success hinged on science, then by science it could be duplicated. All a publisher need do is to hire a hodgepodge of scientists to regurgitate formulas alongside their developer(s).

But Gran Turismo does not simulate reality, rather it reflects our perception of it. This is an art that has proven to be extremely difficult to reproduce.


* Setting, mood and atmosphere are symptoms of cinematography. :|

 

[Sonic]

Well, I cannot tell you for a fact that a 206 an da Porsche 997 feel different at 100 MPH. I can tell you for a fact that a 3000GT VR4 and Ferrari 575M feel different at 100 MPH. While the 3k/GTO feels nice and solid at that relatively high speed, the Ferrari feels like it cam do that all day without a problem.

 

[David_South#1]

Phil, you've done a wonderful job of explaining Gran Turismo.

Polyphony Digital may be a subsidiary of Sony.
But it is not a Sony run company.

With each success Kazunori Yamauchi has been given more control.
Seeing PolyD's offices moved me with enough delight that tears filled my eyes.

The office environment of this game company,
Is not a shrine to the company’s work like so many others.
PolyD is a shrine to automobiles, the owners, the readers, the collectors, and the love.

Just as Muslims have Mecca, PolyD has become a Hajj to this faithful video racer.

There is a mental state I see in PolyD photo, video, and interviews that is complete.
Looking at MS you feel the corporation and the competition, not the dedication.

 

[nasanu]

Stating that a SIM can not sell or be playable to casual gamers just tells me that you are not thinking (re: second page of this thread).

All GT games by default in the options have driving aids turned on. Also arcade mode cars seem to use slick race tyres. The GT games have always been easy to pic up and play because of this. Also because of this I constantly get people on xbox live telling me how shit GT is and how all xbox racers, even the ones that are not announced yet are better. I ask them 'did you turns the driving aids off and use real tyres?'... Yes they say. Sure you did.


Personally I think Forza will better GT as a racer. But unlike what someone on the first page thinks, GT has never claimed to be the 'real racing simulator', rather the real driving simulator and I think in this area GT will still out shine all others. And with the addition of 6 player online (people on xbox live tell me with great passion that this is Sony lies and its really 4 player because the PS2 does not have the power to do anymore than 4 player online in any game, even after I tell them how many players hardware: online arena supports) I don't need AI cars at all. Just give me tough license tests and CHEAT FREE online play and I am happy.

I think Forza will be great online too and it will come down to which has the most realistic driving model and less cheats (wall riding, grass cutting etc) as to which I will focus on.

 

[Lazy8s]

Agreed. It's a distinction that always being missed: GT games are car collecting, tuning, and driving games while the focus of the more "arcade" types is on the intensity of racing instead. It makes cross comparisons between games of the genre less direct since the focus of the two types is purposefully different.

The fun in Gran Turismo comes from enacting strategy to get yourself the right machine to progress at various stages. Because of its exhaustive breadth of options for this, its renowned for being a comprehensive driving simulator. As a racer, though, it doesn't have the intense jockeying for position by competitors and so much of the outflanking around the course as a racing-focused game has.

 

[archie4oz]

Polyphony Digital may be a subsidiary of Sony.
But it is not a Sony run company.

What the hell is this supposed to mean?

There is a mental state I see in PolyD photo, video, and interviews that is complete.
Looking at MS you feel the corporation and the competition, not the dedication.

You could say the same thing about Bungie... (most of the original crew are still avid Mac users to boot)

 

[Pepto-Bismol]

Well, I cannot tell you for a fact that a 206 an da Porsche 997 feel different at 100 MPH. I can tell you for a fact that a 3000GT VR4 and Ferrari 575M feel different at 100 MPH.

I wasn't mentioning anything specific really -- just trying to put faces on a sweeping generalization.

An Airbus A380 loping along the runway at 241kmh feels "different" than a Ducati motorbike traveling at the same rate. Sure, as far as mathematics is concerned, both will reach the same point at the same time, but this is not the rider's impression.

I think Gran Turismo is popular because it reflects our perception of reality more than simulate it.

 

[Phil]

I wasn't mentioning anything specific really -- just trying to put faces on a sweeping generalization.

An Airbus A380 loping along the runway at 241kmh feels "different" than a Ducati motorbike traveling at the same rate. Sure, as far as mathematics is concerned, both will reach the same point at the same time, but this is not the rider's impression.

While I also see what you're point is, I think you're missing out on the fact that Gran Turismo is a game, played on a console. I am quite aware that different cars feel very different at same speeds - I actually have my own set of experience with that too - though how could a game influence the perception of it? There just isn't enough feedback components to make it feel different. However if you use different cars at same speeds through curves, you will actually notice the difference. This is a video game of course and the components responsible for feedback are quite limited. You won't get "reality" until you probably connect your brain to a computer to play games (and even then, reality will be nothing more than a 'fake' one).

I think Gran Turismo is popular because it reflects our perception of reality more than simulate it.

Well I can't really argue that, really. In fact, you're probably right for the most part - but I wasn't really debating that in the first place, rather than that the Gran Turismo series is a shrine to car lovers and has been about realism from the beginning. Not to have realism as the main priority would be a betrayel to the community that the game is targeted at - people like Kazunori Yamauchi himself.

 

[Pepto-Bismol]

I am quite aware that different cars feel very different at same speeds - I actually have my own set of experience with that too - though how could a game influence the perception of it? There just isn't enough feedback components to make it feel different.

And this is precisely why SCEI would opt to go the cinematic route!

For one thing, simulation is not what attracts a broader audience. Madden Football, for instance, isn't going to intercept European fans any more than Winning Eleven will score with American ones -- despite being "dumbed down" with easier play modes.

What lures a hodgepodge to an activity they may or may not abhor isn't the event (obviously!) but the mainstream elements that swaddle it. Like an intoxicating sense of motion. Like instant replays that look like music videos. Like lots of familiar automobiles ...

Marketing aside, cinematography short-circuits simulation. :|

It dredges up some of the feelings we associate with reality, leapfrogging simulators which are often too busy trying to model it. And in presenting players with what is -- at best -- a simplified description of a more complicated world, is it any wonder that the feelings simulators illicit seem diluted by comparison?

Not to have realism as the main priority would be a betrayel to the community that the game is targeted at - people like Kazunori Yamauchi himself.

There's nothing personal about business. Now if that means neglecting a niche market in order to satiate the masses then so be it.

Ultimately, the goal of Sony Group is to realize a (larger and larger) profit. And its minion, SCEI, will not be able to accomplish this aim by shaking spare change out of the same demographic ...