Enough with the "cinematic" crap

[Nesh]

Well Assasin's Creed is one of the games that over do it with reticules and screen information and at the end it feels like moving from cursor to cursor instead of actually being immersed in the world.
On the other hand I find myself lost in many games without using a map or some kind of hint to where to go. You see a cursor to where to go but then you find a huge ass obstacle or mountain on your way and you have zero clue how to pass it to get where you want. Both cases are examples of bad design.

 

[trinibwoy]

Don’t think I’ve ever felt immersed in any AC game aside from ship combat in black flag which is awesome. It’s mostly the visuals and exploration that I find enjoyable. The parkour/combat gameplay loop is just ok. They really need to find a better way for people to explore the world without littering the map with 1000 menial/repetitive tasks.

 

[ZebMacahan]

I did not expect people to get so hung up on the title instead of discussing the points i was making.

My main point is that games and movies are different mediums and we engage with them differently. By pushing the cinematic angle too far the result can be something that is actually less immersive.

Different games have different aims and to an extent appeal to different people. Removing stats and info from a game like wow or whatever would probably hurt the experience, and having the screen littered with stuff in Alan Wake would ruin the immersion, but so would having to open your inventory to know how many flashlights batteries you have.

Im not just taking about the HUD. Turning the camera in Callisto is really slow, the FOV is narrow. Just looking left and right takes a really long time, so just doing the most basic interactions in the game, like looking around, is frustrating, even if It might look very good and cinematic when not playing it. In real life it doesnt take several seconds to look to the left or the right.

 

[Remij]

I did not expect people to get so hung up on the title instead of discussing the points i was making.

My main point is that games and movies are different mediums and we engage with them differently. By pushing the cinematic angle too far the result can be something that is actually less immersive.

Different games have different aims and to an extent appeal to different people. Removing stats and info from a game like wow or whatever would probably hurt the experience, and having the screen littered with stuff in Alan Wake would ruin the immersion, but so would having to open your inventory to know how many flashlights batteries you have.

Im not just taking about the HUD. Turning the camera in Callisto is really slow, the FOV is narrow. Just looking left and right takes a really long time, so just doing the most basic interactions in the game, like looking around, is frustrating, even if It might look very good and cinematic when not playing it. In real life it doesnt take several seconds to look to the left or the right.

The Callisto Protocol's FOV is narrow, and the camera turns slow, and there's disorienting effects when you're being attacked for reasons... and it likely has less to do with strictly being more cinematic, though of course that plays a part, but it's more likely that they want you to feel claustrophobic and tension by being in an enclosed space with scary monsters. You're not supposed to be able to see all around the character at all times, you're supposed to be fighting a monster head on and hearing a monster come from behind you..

Those are all things they do which are meant to service those feelings/fears. Yes, clearly TCP is supposed to be cinematic.. but it also is supposed to be immersive, and people find stull like the hud being integrated into the game immersive.

 

[ZebMacahan]

The Callisto Protocol's FOV is narrow, and the camera turns slow, and there's disorienting effects when you're being attacked for reasons... and it likely has less to do with strictly being more cinematic, though of course that plays a part, but it's more likely that they want you to feel claustrophobic and tension by being in an enclosed space with scary monsters. You're not supposed to be able to see all around the character at all times, you're supposed to be fighting a monster head on and hearing a monster come from behind you..

Those are all things they do which are meant to service those feelings/fears. Yes, clearly TCP is supposed to be cinematic.. but it also is supposed to be immersive, and people find stull like the hud being integrated into the game immersive.

Yes, I think its a balancing act. I dont think a game like that would have worked with a super wide professional COD player FOV, but I think they pushed it too far in the other direction. Dead space, RE manage to get the claustrophobic tension thing. I think something is wrong when basic things like looking around feels off.

I dont have a problem with integrated huds if its done right, dead space did it very well. I´ve heard people complaining that the healthbar in callisto is too small to read. I never experienced that myself though.

 

[Remij]

Yes, I think its a balancing act. I dont think a game like that would have worked with a super wide professional COD player FOV, but I think they pushed it too far in the other direction. Dead space, RE manage to get the claustrophobic tension thing. I think something is wrong when basic things like looking around feels off.

I dont have a problem with integrated huds if its done right, dead space did it very well. I´ve heard people complaining that the healthbar in callisto is too small to read. I never experienced that myself though.

I think games should strive to achieve the vision they have for the project, and there's always going to be certain things which come at the cost of other things, but to your point, devs could also strive to provide as much options as possible to facilitate enjoyment from all types of players. Options like customizing HUDs such as changing size or location of them, and allowing a more traditional styles of HUDs for gamers who prefer that type of thing. Also, games should support wider FOVs for people who legitimately get motion sick and it should be a standard accessibility options in all games.

Unless something is super imperative to the vision the studio has for the game that changing it would fundamentally break it, there should always be options.

 

[ZebMacahan]

I think games should strive to achieve the vision they have for the project, and there's always going to be certain things which come at the cost of other things, but to your point, devs could also strive to provide as much options as possible to facilitate enjoyment from all types of players. Options like customizing HUDs such as changing size or location of them, and allowing a more traditional styles of HUDs for gamers who prefer that type of thing. Also, games should support wider FOVs for people who legitimately get motion sick and it should be a standard accessibility options in all games.

Unless something is super imperative to the vision the studio has for the game that changing it would fundamentally break it, there should always be options.

Yes, giving the player options seems best to me.
I had to give up on RE8 because of the motion sickness thing.

 

[see colon]

Yes, giving the player options seems best to me.

While I'm not against this, I think in some ways this points to a question about art. Should art be made for it's consumption, or for the expression of the artist?

 

[Daozang]

It depends.
If games are art, then all games cannot satisfy all people, if not, then there is a checklist and the consumer is buying based on how many checks there are.

 

[arandomguy]

I think games should strive to achieve the vision they have for the project, and there's always going to be certain things which come at the cost of other things, but to your point, devs could also strive to provide as much options as possible to facilitate enjoyment from all types of players. Options like customizing HUDs such as changing size or location of them, and allowing a more traditional styles of HUDs for gamers who prefer that type of thing. Also, games should support wider FOVs for people who legitimately get motion sick and it should be a standard accessibility options in all games.

Unless something is super imperative to the vision the studio has for the game that changing it would fundamentally break it, there should always be options.

This is nice in theory but in practice the amount of permutation to satisfy everyone is going to immense and not achievable. Even hyper malleable games like the TES series with community support don't achieve this.

Sure you can say to narrow it down to just HUD elements then the complaint will shift to something else, or some group will want some other aspect to be a higher priority than HUD elements.

Given the amount of choice in the market currently these days it seems like the more practical solution is for the user to seek out products than fit them. With that they also might have to come to a realization that their preferences aren't anything special and might not be what's primarily being catered to.

This is going to go off tangent the internets really given the floor to main character syndrome in which the vocal ones want all products to cater to them because their tastes are "special." You've probably seen these comments, X product doesn't fit me, it's therefore trash and a waste.

Not to mention the issue for some isn't about just serving their preferences but that they also want recognition for their preferences.

 

[Remij]

This is nice in theory but in practice the amount of permutation to satisfy everyone is going to immense and not achievable. Even hyper malleable games like the TES series with community support don't achieve this.

Sure you can say to narrow it down to just HUD elements then the complaint will shift to something else, or some group will want some other aspect to be a higher priority than HUD elements.

Given the amount of choice in the market currently these days it seems like the more practical solution is for the user to seek out products than fit them. With that they also might have to come to a realization that their preferences aren't anything special and might not be what's primarily being catered to.

This is going to go off tangent the internets really given the floor to main character syndrome in which the vocal ones want all products to cater to them because their tastes are "special." You've probably seen these comments, X product doesn't fit me, it's therefore trash and a waste.

Every game does this to varying degrees.. from gameplay to graphics. They create lower/higher quality settings for users with less/more powerful platforms.. they create different levels of difficulty, they create different control schemes and so on to service different people.

I agree that it never ends... but that's not a bad thing. Games should always strive to be more accessible. Games which have a certain vision should of course stick to it and try to execute on that vision first and foremost but then push themselves to try and work within those limits to make as many people as happy as possible.

 

[arandomguy]

Every game does this to varying degrees.. from gameplay to graphics. They create lower/higher quality settings for users with less/more powerful platforms.. they create different levels of difficulty, they create different control schemes and so on to service different people.

I agree that it never ends... but that's not a bad thing. Games should always strive to be more accessible. Games which have a certain vision should of course stick to it and try to execute on that vision first and foremost but then push themselves to try and work within those limits to make as many people as happy as possible.

Well yes I'm not saying otherwise. The status quo is for games typically to offer some configurability. I'm just saying that there is a limit to it however which should be understandable.

I used TES games specifically as an example in terms of how the community enables the experience to have significant departure from the devs intent yet it still can't satisfy fully everyone and every niche essentially.

The other problem I touched on though is for some again it's not just about having options but that they need their preferable experience to be the one true way essentially, even for single player games. So this in itself causes an interesting conundrum in that offering accessibility/configurability in itself is what they don't want.

 

[Color me Dan]

I think I can agree with the basic sentiment that striving for a “cinematic” look and feel is not always to a games benefit. From the perspective of immersion I’ve been surprised at how small things can break it. Or add to it. And it’s very dependent on the type of game you’re playing.

A succes in my mind was the old Jurassic Park game Trespasser. You had no traditional HUD, you only had a heart tattoo on your chest (you looked down to see if it was filled or not), and she counted out the bullets left in a gun aloud as you fired. I thought it worked really well for what they were trying to achieve at the time. The cinematic quality was achieved with music and well timed narrative bits in engine and without ever taking agency from the player.

But then that game wasn’t over saturated with enemies, and had large expanses to explore. Well, relatively. It was almost a walking sim with more interaction really.

I much prefer that feel to, for example, later Tomb Raider games where it’s as though the game is pushing you into set-pieces. Where the you’re corralled into pressing the right buttons and doing the correct actions to continue watching the quasi-movie that’s playing out rather than exploring the game world.

But it’s highly subjective, I don’t think the addition of customizable HUDs would have added or detracted markedly from either experience. I don’t even recall what the HUD looked like in Tomb Raider at this point. But they were definitely different in their approach to “cinematicism”. And I feel that permeated the entire game design.

 

[Feral]

And sometimes, cutscenes cannot be skipped.

I can see why that would bug people who just play to play.