AMD RDNA4 potential product value

[RedVi]

... and won't have any answer for DLSS.

Uh, FSR4?

I agree 9070XT should be $499 simply because the 7800XT was. It was their true x7 tier class card last gen and is a similar die size/same memory layout so I see no reason for the 9070XT to be more expensive. Of course I doubt it will be because the market is weird. $550-600 for close to 5070Ti raster, 25% slower RT or so and FSR4 bringing close enough results to DLSS4 would be a good enough deal. Priced higher than that without performing better and it's DOA.

The spanner in the works is being able to find a 5070Ti/5070 for close to MSRP. I'm dubious whether the MSRP models will be restocked in any meaningful quantities.

 

[techuse]

Uh, FSR4?

I agree 9070XT should be $499 simply because the 7800XT was. It was their true x7 tier class card last gen and is a similar die size/same memory layout so I see no reason for the 9070XT to be more expensive. Of course I doubt it will be because the market is weird. $550-600 for close to 5070Ti raster, 25% slower RT or so and FSR4 bringing close enough results to DLSS4 would be a good enough deal. Priced higher than that without performing better and it's DOA.

The spanner in the works is being able to find a 5070Ti/5070 for close to MSRP. I'm dubious whether the MSRP models will be restocked in any meaningful quantities.

FSR 4 will almost certainly not be a match for DLSS and game support will be very thin.

 

[Scott_Arm]

FSR 4 will almost certainly not be a match for DLSS and game support will be very thin.

People who saw FSR4 said it looked very good. And lots of games have FSR3, and AMD is going to offer the same driver-level override to add FSR4 (I think). Support should be very good.

 

[techuse]

People who saw FSR4 said it looked very good. And lots of games have FSR3, and AMD is going to offer the same driver-level override to add FSR4 (I think). Support should be very good.

If AMD was that confident they would have compared it to DLSS directly. It’s very unrealistic to expect them to close such a massive gap.

 

[Kaotik]

People who saw FSR4 said it looked very good. And lots of games have FSR3, and AMD is going to offer the same driver-level override to add FSR4 (I think). Support should be very good.

No need to think, everything supporting FSR 3.1 supports FSR 4 (3.1 is the one where they switched to DLL method which makes it easy)

If AMD was that confident they would have compared it to DLSS directly. It’s very unrealistic to expect them to close such a massive gap.

Not on expo before even releasing said tech officially.

 

[GhostofWar]

Was fsr4 shown on anything but ratchet and clank? cause pssr was touted as being better than dlss until it wasn't.

 

[Scott_Arm]

If AMD was that confident they would have compared it to DLSS directly. It’s very unrealistic to expect them to close such a massive gap.

My personal feeling is that a little too much is made of upscaling quality. FSR is pretty bad right now, but they don't need to really beat or match DLSS. It just has to be good enough. I think DLSS TNN looks better than CNN in the majority of cases, but I've been using the CNN for years and it was fine. For all of the ... whining ... online, I think most people can just turn on DLSS and not think about it. FSR4 just has to be good enough, and hopefully that's what it'll be.

 

[trinibwoy]

I wonder where the non-XT lands. If it manages to beat the 5070, I can see the XT being priced higher.

(Rumored) specs wise the 9070 is closer to the 9070 XT than the 5070 is to the 5070 Ti. 9070 is probably >> 5070 in raster.

 

[RobertR1]

My personal feeling is that a little too much is made of upscaling quality. FSR is pretty bad right now, but they don't need to really beat or match DLSS. It just has to be good enough. I think DLSS TNN looks better than CNN in the majority of cases, but I've been using the CNN for years and it was fine. For all of the ... whining ... online, I think most people can just turn on DLSS and not think about it. FSR4 just has to be good enough, and hopefully that's what it'll be.

FSR4 needs a "pass" from reviewers and tech tubers. Then it becomes less of a talking point. It needs to hang out between XeSS and DLSS to do that. Certainly possible.

On the RT side, i'm sure they'll do something but these cards aren't going at flagship tier so if anything, focus RT performance with uDNA and get your denoiser upto to RR TNA levels and launch it fresh.

For a 9070/XT to gain market share my takes are following:
- Be 25% or cheaper to equivalent nvidia card in raster performance
- Get FSR4 to deliver above XeSS and slightly below or close to DLSS CNN

These aren't impossible tasks but if they start doing stupid things like "oh our upscaling is close so let's price it within 5-15% of the nvidia card" it'll just crash and burn as previous generations.

 

[Scott_Arm]

@RobertR1 I'm actually not sure how relevant reviewers and tech tubers are anymore, or at least how much influence they have on purchasing decisions.

 

[pjbliverpool]

If we say one upscaler is good enough compared to another upscaler to make it not worth factoring them into the comparison - even if it produces a noticably inferior output, where does that leave us in like for like comparisons? We could argue for example that 1800p is good enough compared with 4k, but does that mean we could say for example that because a 4080 at 1800p is as fast as a 5080 at 2160p these GPU's can be considered equivalent?

My point here is that while FSR4 may well be good enough for most (like 1800p), if DLSS 4 Performance is equivalent to FSR4 Quality (which there's a very good chance of IMO) then in every game that supports DLSS4 the 5070 is probably going to be performing similarly to, or above a 9070XT (before RT). That's got to be factored into the comparison.

 

[trinibwoy]

My point here is that while FSR4 may well be good enough for most (like 1800p), if DLSS 4 Performance is equivalent to FSR4 Quality (which there's a very good chance of IMO) then in every game that supports DLSS4 the 5070 is probably going to be performing similarly to, or above a 9070XT (before RT). That's got to be factored into the comparison.

That’s already the case today where performance of FSR is considered equivalent to DLSS with the quality difference as a qualifier. I don’t see why that needs to change. We can still say FSR quality and DLSS 4 quality offer similar performance while acknowledging DLSS 4 produces higher quality output. It’s impossible to control for equivalent IQ.

 

[Bondrewd]

These aren't impossible tasks but if they start doing stupid things like "oh our upscaling is close so let's price it within 5-15% of the nvidia card" it'll just crash and burn as previous generations

This point is moot since 25% price delta just forces NV pricecuts.

 

[pjbliverpool]

That’s already the case today where performance of FSR is considered equivalent to DLSS with the quality difference as a qualifier. I don’t see why that needs to change. We can still say FSR quality and DLSS 4 quality offer similar performance while acknowledging DLSS 4 produces higher quality output. It’s impossible to control for equivalent IQ.

My post was in response to the suggestion that FSR4 being good enough meant DLSS didn't need to be considered as part of the purchasing decision or value proposition of a particular GPU.

 

[techuse]

Saying upscaling quality doesn’t matter much strikes me as very odd. The differences between FSR and DLSS are larger than the difference RT provides in the overwhelming majority of its implementations.

DLSS ultra performance looking better than FSR quality is a huge problem for AMD. Even if FSR 4 matches up to DLSS 2, which I think is unlikely given how PSSR turned out, the difference will still be a problem for them.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Saying upscaling quality doesn’t matter much strikes me as very odd. The difference between FSR and DLSS is larger than the difference RT provides in the overwhelming majority of implementations.

DLSS ultra performance looking better than FSR quality is a huge problem for AMD. Even if FSR 4 matches up to DLSS 2, which I think is unlikely given how PSSR turned out, the difference will still be a problem for them.

I think FSR is currently a bad option. DLSS CNN is kind of in the good enough realm. At some point we're going to be in comparing micro-detail that I think most people won't really care or even be aware of it. DLSS4 TNN is definitely an improvement, I'm just not sure FSR4 needs to match it.

 

[techuse]

I think FSR is currently a bad option. DLSS CNN is kind of in the good enough realm. At some point we're going to be in comparing micro-detail that I think most people won't really care or even be aware of it. DLSS4 TNN is definitely an improvement, I'm just not sure FSR4 needs to match it.

The reality is AMD offers no advantages for the user. “Good enough” only matters in the presence of a price discount big enough to cover the gap.

 

[RobertR1]

The reality is AMD offers no advantages for the user. “Good enough” only matters in the presence of a price discount big enough to cover the gap.

That’s what I’m trying to say. At the current state they can’t compete at all.

But! If they can get fsr4 to land between cnn and tnn model, it stops being a show stopper. Couple with offering a discount makes them more viable.

If fsr4 comes out with poor game support and on its best day just matches dlss3, rough days ahead.

 

[homerdog]

That’s what I’m trying to say. At the current state they can’t compete at all.

But! If they can get fsr4 to land between cnn and tnn model, it stops being a show stopper. Couple with offering a discount makes them more viable.

If fsr4 comes out with poor game support and on its best day just matches dlss3, rough days ahead.

Weren't they going to allow FSR4 overrides for older games that had FSR3?

 

[Kaotik]

Weren't they going to allow FSR4 overrides for older games that had FSR3?

All FSR 3.1 is FSR 4