Some Xbox 360 and PS3 questions

[Shifty Geezer]

Integer buffers had one byte, 8 bits, per colour channel, for 24 bits for RGB and 32 bits for RGBA. This could represent values from black to white. Blending between values could prove inaccurate, particularly in low ranges, resulting in posterisation, or prove tricky to balance the highs and lows without something get washed out.

Floating point buffers can represent much broader colour/intensity ranges. The end result might see an image with ranges from 0 to 65500 I think, including smaller deltas between values than 1. You could thus render a bunch of light sources that accumulate beyond the 255 upper limit of 24 bit integer colour. As a final step, this floating point buffer needs to be mapped onto the 24 bit integer display. Let's say the darkest value in our rendered buffer is 318, and the brightest is 5166, we'd map that so 318 is (0) and 5166 is (255), generally on a gamma curve (2.2?)

The conversion from fp buffers to int display buffers had different curves on the two platforms, with, IIRC, Xenos having a peculiar knee in a strange approximation.

Also, didn't fp16 on XB360 require too many tiles, and so it mostly used its custom fp10 format, IIRC?

 

[davis.anthony]

nAo used integer based HDR on PS3 which does allow the use of MSAA at the same time.

The game he worked on was Heavenly Sword.

But MSAA was so rare on PS3 (And 360 for that matter) that I don't imagine it was much of a problem.

 

[Nesh]

What about GT5?
And another question why wasn't MLAA used more often considering how good it was on GoW?

 

[Liandry]

But MSAA was so rare on PS3 (And 360.for that matter) that I don't imagine it was much of a problem.

So fp16 HDR was in many games on PS3? Or? I didn't understand all what you wrote.

What about GT5?

As I know GT5 was with MSAA, but also looks like there could've been fp16 HDR. But I can't find any info about GT5 or GT6 development as for most of top games that gen. There is a lot about Uncharted games and many many other PS3 exclusives, and also X360 exclusives.

And another question why wasn't MLAA used more often considering how good it was on GoW?

As I remember there was some games, mostly Sony games with MLAA afted GoW 3, but in some year after GoW 3 someone made FXAA and that was used almost in all AAA games on both PS3 and X360. Maybe baceuse of that.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

After Killzone 2, a lot of games moved away from forward rendering to deferred rendering. This changed the nature from just a certain-depth framebuffer to a complex buffer description:

 

[Globalisateur]

What about GT5?
And another question why wasn't MLAA used more often considering how good it was on GoW?

Good question. MLAA was the best AA method on PS3 and was basically free to use. It was also used in BF3 (Battlefield 3) and looked awesome there.

BF3 had a better IQ on PS3 versus the blurry FXAA used on PS4, I do remember doing comparisons (on this board) and been shocked by it.

But the answer is probably the same as why FSR is used on PS5 instead of some awesome CBR solutions (not all of them obviously). It's easier for developers to maintain one implementation used on several platforms. Developer main target is PC right now anyways with DLSS as the best way to play their games. They don't care about bad IQ on consoles.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Good question. MLAA was the best AA method on PS3 and was basically free to use.

Why? Pretty sure it wasn't.

FXAA On PS3....Why use this over MLAA?

Apparently Sony's ICE team claims to have made FXAA work work for the PS3. I integrated FXAA yesterday afternoon. Painless integration, impressive quality, AMAZING performance. But my question is, why might someone use this over MLAA? Are the end results better?

forum.beyond3d.com

This question on AA covered here. Various devs giving their input.

Alternative AA methods and their comparison with traditional MSAA*

:o Wonder how useable this is on the other console.

forum.beyond3d.com

 

[Liandry]

Also interesting question. Why many PS3 games are begger in size that X360 games. I checked list. As an example Uncharted is 20.8 GB, Uncharted 2 21.9 GB, Uncharted 3 33.2 GB and Killzone 3 is 41 GB! Like PS4 game. Some multiplatform games are also bigger and those look same on both consoles. Is it because of better quality in game videos (1080p), or there are other reasons. Also Uncharted 2 looks way ahead that Uncharted but game size is only 1 GB bigger. Why is that?

 

[tuna]

Also interesting question. Why many PS3 games are begger in size that X360 games. I checked list. As an example Uncharted is 20.8 GB, Uncharted 2 21.9 GB, Uncharted 3 33.2 GB and Killzone 3 is 41 GB! Like PS4 game. Some multiplatform games are also bigger and those look same on both consoles. Is it because of better quality in game videos (1080p), or there are other reasons. Also Uncharted 2 looks way ahead that Uncharted but game size is only 1 GB bigger. Why is that?

XB360 is limited by the DVD disc size. PS3 is limited by the BD disc size

 

[davis.anthony]

I imagine the extra disk space on PS3 allowed developers to have more duplicate files to help with loading.

 

[Nesh]

Also interesting question. Why many PS3 games are begger in size that X360 games. I checked list. As an example Uncharted is 20.8 GB, Uncharted 2 21.9 GB, Uncharted 3 33.2 GB and Killzone 3 is 41 GB! Like PS4 game. Some multiplatform games are also bigger and those look same on both consoles. Is it because of better quality in game videos (1080p), or there are other reasons. Also Uncharted 2 looks way ahead that Uncharted but game size is only 1 GB bigger. Why is that?

I believe the reads from BluRay were slower compared to reads from DVD. This is why many games had HUUUUGE loading times or had partial installations on PS3 when they didnt on the 360.
So it is very likely one of the solutions was to have duplicates on BluRay as another way of dealing with slower reads

 

[davis.anthony]

So fp16 HDR was in many games on PS3? Or? I didn't understand all what you wrote.

Yes because games never used fp HDR and MSAA together as the hardware just wasn't powerful enough for it anyway, so it's lack of compatibility was never really a problem in reality.

 

[see colon]

They don't care about bad IQ on consoles.

75% of console gamers choose framerate. Regardless what pixel counters might lead to to believe, console players aren't overly concerned with image quality.

 

[Liandry]

For some 3 weeks I played PS3 again. I completed Uncharted 1,2,3, THe Last of Us, Heavy Rain and for the first time played and completed Beyond Two Souls. I also started God Of War 3. I made three conclusions.
1) PS3 top exclusive games were on different level than Xbox 360 games, both exclusive and multiplatform. There are more polygons, many textures are with higher resolution, more complex lighting, better effects and better post-processing effects. Also important moment is what animation is better and in Naughty Dog games it is on another level.
2) Graphics in PS3 exclusives is still very good. I was shocked with Beyond Two Souls graphics. I haven't played that game before and without a joke can tell what except of resolution this is PS4 level of graphics. After that game I'm not so impressed with PS4 level of graphics anymore. Yest it's good, but not so much as I belived to be. Other games I played before and was surprised how good they look even today, but Beyond is completely different. Amazing character detailes, very high resolution textures, great lighting and shadows. I also heard once what they used physically based rendering in thet game. Did anyone know is that true? Bet looks like it could'be true. Materials look different, and that difference is a lot more noticeable than in any other PS3 or Xbox 360 game. Also there are amazing reflections without screen space like in modern games, and they don't dissapear of you move camera up and down, wow! (In ather PS3 exclusives there are also a lot of reflections, those were amazing times).
3) PS3 was very underused in multiplatform games. Befor Beyond I knew that, but after that game, I wonder what could've been achieved on PS3.
After finishing God of War 3 I plan to re-play God of War Ascension, Resistance 1,2,3 and Killzone 2. Also need to complete Killzone 3. Oh And I forgot about Gran Turismo 6. Also haven't played that before. Now after playing a little bit I can say what game still looks very good compared to newest games. Cars look like they realy made of metal.

 

[see colon]

If you have a CRT, try playing PS3 games on that. PS3, and 360 games, look fantastic at 480i, and many of them run better as well. Text heavy games, though, suffer because they are often hard to read.

I know these consoles are marketed as being HD, but I've found they really shine when running their content in SD.

 

[Cappuccino]

Good question. MLAA was the best AA method on PS3 and was basically free to use. It was also used in BF3 (Battlefield 3) and looked awesome there.

BF3 had a better IQ on PS3 versus the blurry FXAA used on PS4, I do remember doing comparisons (on this board) and been shocked by it.

But the answer is probably the same as why FSR is used on PS5 instead of some awesome CBR solutions (not all of them obviously). It's easier for developers to maintain one implementation used on several platforms. Developer main target is PC right now anyways with DLSS as the best way to play their games. They don't care about bad IQ on consoles.

I think you are misremembering, BF3 never came out on PS4. You may be thinking of BF4 which did have a cross gen release.

 

[Nesh]

For some 3 weeks I played PS3 again. I completed Uncharted 1,2,3, THe Last of Us, Heavy Rain and for the first time played and completed Beyond Two Souls. I also started God Of War 3. I made three conclusions.
1) PS3 top exclusive games were on different level than Xbox 360 games, both exclusive and multiplatform. There are more polygons, many textures are with higher resolution, more complex lighting, better effects and better post-processing effects. Also important moment is what animation is better and in Naughty Dog games it is on another level.
2) Graphics in PS3 exclusives is still very good. I was shocked with Beyond Two Souls graphics. I haven't played that game before and without a joke can tell what except of resolution this is PS4 level of graphics. After that game I'm not so impressed with PS4 level of graphics anymore. Yest it's good, but not so much as I belived to be. Other games I played before and was surprised how good they look even today, but Beyond is completely different. Amazing character detailes, very high resolution textures, great lighting and shadows. I also heard once what they used physically based rendering in thet game. Did anyone know is that true? Bet looks like it could'be true. Materials look different, and that difference is a lot more noticeable than in any other PS3 or Xbox 360 game. Also there are amazing reflections without screen space like in modern games, and they don't dissapear of you move camera up and down, wow! (In ather PS3 exclusives there are also a lot of reflections, those were amazing times).
3) PS3 was very underused in multiplatform games. Befor Beyond I knew that, but after that game, I wonder what could've been achieved on PS3.
After finishing God of War 3 I plan to re-play God of War Ascension, Resistance 1,2,3 and Killzone 2. Also need to complete Killzone 3. Oh And I forgot about Gran Turismo 6. Also haven't played that before. Now after playing a little bit I can say what game still looks very good compared to newest games. Cars look like they realy made of metal.

As someone who owned both, I can also attest that the PS3 exclusives sometimes felt like they were meeting the overblown promises they made during their controversial E3 reveal.

Nothing in XBOX came close to Uncharted, Killzone and GoW.

 

[Liandry]

If you have a CRT, try playing PS3 games on that. PS3, and 360 games, look fantastic at 480i, and many of them run better as well. Text heavy games, though, suffer because they are often hard to read.

I know these consoles are marketed as being HD, but I've found they really shine when running their content in SD.

I startet than gen with Xbox 360 and CRT. And yes sometimes games looks very good on CRT, but after 55" it's hard to go back.

As someone who owned both, I can also attest that the PS3 exclusives sometimes felt like they were meeting the overblown promises they made during their controversial E3 reveal.

Nothing in XBOX came close to Uncharted, Killzone and GoW.

Only difference is what I have Xbox 360 for all this time form 7th gen, and got PS3 again only now. And re-play those top PS3 exclusives after 8th and some 9th gen games was impressive. Xbox 360 games as I said looks good too, but those are absolutely great. Sometimes I also think what E3 2005 level in graphics and physics was almost achieved.

 

[Nesh]

I startet than gen with Xbox 360 and CRT. And yes sometimes games looks very good on CRT, but after 55" it's hard to go back.


Only difference is what I have Xbox 360 for all this time form 7th gen, and got PS3 again only now. And re-play those top PS3 exclusives after 8th and some 9th gen games was impressive. Xbox 360 games as I said looks good too, but those are absolutely great. Sometimes I also think what E3 2005 level in graphics and physics was almost achieved.

I think they achieved a very close approximation. What makes those Sony games look so good and feel like the CG demos, isn't the quality of the rendering quality itself being CG, but the fact that these games achieved all the subtle touches in animation, lighting and multiple events going on simultaneously on screen that you would expect from a CG animated movie where the artists have full control to touch and blemish the scene to make it feel more alive and believable.

 

[davis.anthony]

If you have a CRT, try playing PS3 games on that. PS3, and 360 games, look fantastic at 480i, and many of them run better as well. Text heavy games, though, suffer because they are often hard to read.

I know these consoles are marketed as being HD, but I've found they really shine when running their content in SD.

They look even better on an HD-CRT.