Hmm... claiming support on 350 million devices is different from saying one software runs on 350 million devices. They may support multiple code base at the same time (although the newer platforms may share more code)
HTML5 on consoles
- Thread starter AzBat
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Hmm... claiming support on 350 million devices is different from saying one software runs on 350 million devices. They may support multiple code base at the same time (although the newer platforms may share more code)
jeff_rigby
Banned
Yes, it shocked me too. I have to assume there is a misunderstanding on my part possibly intentionally created by Divx. This large number may be partially explained by references to SOC by Broadcom and others for javascript and video codecs beginning late last year and by PS3, Wii and Xbox also being lumped into this. Both Vudu and Dixv mentioned game consoles for supported platforms.
The Xbox with Siverlight has had support for javascript and DRM codecs (ultraviolet allows the DRM to be compatible)
The Wii for a year now has had javascript support outside the browser (lite version of Air), Netflix from a disk and Playon support from inside the browser show codec support and possibly DRM.
The PS3 did not have but now may have javascript outside the browser and DRM player but did/does have the codecs.
And of course we have all iOS products that support apps with their webkit2, Siverlight or Air on PCs and Android platforms with Air.
If you look at the ultraviolet partners and the Adobe Air open screen partners there is quite a bit of crossover; supporting cross platform compatibility, cloud computing and Ultraviolet. For Example; Best Buy which is a Ultraviolet partner is partnering with Sonic Solutions which is an Adobe Open Screen partner which purchased Divx to support Ultraviolet streaming to multiple platforms. Walmart purchased Vudu for the same purpose. The PS3 is one of the hardware display platforms that must display the streams from Best Buy and Walmart.
http://www.uvvu.com/members.html
http://www.openscreenproject.org/
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jeff_rigby
Banned
Old news but possibly still true.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/10/digital_media_anywhere.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/10/digital_media_anywhere.html
The lack of mention of consoles or PS3 makes this one less reason to believe PS3 has a full AIR client.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I will have to agree here and the points I have been making would support a Flash lite version which Adobe also supports and did provide for the Wii.
Flash lite because the platform (Wii) couldn't support a Full Air 2.0 version and had to use a Lite version. Air 2.5 is designed for limited resource platforms so there is no reason from a usability viewpoint to not port Air 2.5 to the PS3.
If Chrome is coming to the PS3, the work in porting Air 2.5 would have to be done in any case as Flash 10.1 is included in Chrome and Air 2.5 is essentially the same as Flash 10.1. It would be a perfect test for the feasibility of porting Chrome with roughly only 1/5th the work.
Porting a current version of Flash Lite to support Flash 3.5 streams while easier would be wasted effort. You would also have to provide javascript support in addition to Flash player lite. That's two products not one; Adobe Flash Lite 3 and Adobe Media Player software..
Home Client 1.4 now provides voice chat using Groups which is so similar to the technique described for P2P in Air 2.5 as to support speculation that Sony is using Air 2.5 to support Group Chat in Home. Air's P2P can also reduce server load.
One last point: It was mentioned in the comments for the link I provided that Adobe had not at that time provided support for CE equipment and that included Game consoles as well as TVs and Blu-Ray players. ALL new Samsung Blu-Ray players now have Air 2.5 support. You don't appear to have a problem believing that Air is now in Blu-Ray players, or that it's announced as coming for Samsung TVs...just the PS3, perhaps because Samsung is more open and has posted this information and Sony has not.
The Adobe sponsored Open Screen Project and UltraViolet have essentially the same goals. IF Adobe is providing Air 2.5 for blu-ray players they certainly would provide it for a Game Console that is considered a top end Blu-Ray player. So I assume the arguments against this revolve around Sony not porting it or allowing it on the PS3 for some reason.
I have a hard time finding any reason for Sony to not port Air 2.5 to the PS3.
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jeff_rigby
Banned
Downloaded application size for "bytecode" client by player:
http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2009/03/30/rich-runtime-install-sizes-matrix/
This is inside browser and pre-Air 2.5
Flash Player 10........... 3.65 MB
MBSilverlight 2............ 6.05 MB
Silverlight 3.................. 9.25 MB
JavaFX 1.1.1...............18.75 MB
Another advantage for Flash is the size of both the client "bytecode" and the Flash (Air 2.5) Runtime engine appears to be smaller.
http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2009/03/30/rich-runtime-install-sizes-matrix/
This is inside browser and pre-Air 2.5
Flash Player 10........... 3.65 MB
MBSilverlight 2............ 6.05 MB
Silverlight 3.................. 9.25 MB
JavaFX 1.1.1...............18.75 MB
Another advantage for Flash is the size of both the client "bytecode" and the Flash (Air 2.5) Runtime engine appears to be smaller.
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jeff_rigby
Banned
http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/24/adobe-air-peer-to-peer-video-call-concept-android-app-hands-on/
http://www.flashrealtime.com/peer-to-peer-multicast-in-new-flash-player-101/
Yup, it's another possible but hard to prove. I suspect if you watch the router send and receive lights while using Home's group chat and notice both lights flashing when you are not talking or sending commands (no movement or voice) while others are talking then this not so common feature of P2P AIR might be shown in Home 1.4. Same might apply to future streaming video from the theatre(s). Your PS3 is in addition to receiving and displaying media from Home is acting like a server for other PS3s by relaying audio/video. This reduces the load on the Home server which in the past was the reason for Chat being removed from home. If the ULA doesn't spell out the ability for Sony to use part of your IP bandwidth to serve other PS3s I expect it will soon be changed.
Air's P2P might be used for XGC at some point.
And yes it would not be as difficult to custom write the same features (Air P2P) and add it to the Home client and Server as writing the support for Flash 3.5 IPTV streams. I also expect Adaptive streaming to show up for Home's theater and the PSN store.
Also, Home is written in a cross platform language (Lua) and compiled to bytecode to run on the Home client (runtime engine). This choice of language/platform that is much less efficient may mean that at some point Home might be available on other hardware platforms. The PSP2 might be powerful enough to support it ( client runtime engine) and Sony laptops are certainly capable.
Correct me if I'm in error but the way the Home Client uses HD cache has restrictions that do not make sense unless there are rules in place as to the use for HD space that is SD memory card based as in handheld memory instead of Hard Disk as in PC. I thought this might be for security reasons but the PS3 already encrypts files on the Hard Disk. It currently does not cache the graphics just caches the Lua bytecode which the client uses to generate the graphics. IF SD memory is to be used in the future for storage on a handheld for instance, it is not fast enough to make caching graphics practical and would use a larger portion of the SD memory for graphics storage than for Lua descriptors of that graphics.
What's possible in the future for the PS3 and other platforms with Air 2.5 and Chrome are of more interest to me but I got sidetracked into the "Proof issue" as that must come first or what I speculate is considered "WILD".
For instance, Samsung's choice to included Air 2.5 in Blu-ray players and TVs rather than go with Google TV is an indicator of the future of CE. For one, it's easier from a hardware point of view to support and applications might be more attractive to consumers than web pages. So cross platform Air applications will be available from a Samsung store for CE equipment. I think I mentioned that I believe Air will be the ultraviolet cross platform application engine.
http://blogs.adobe.com/flashplatform/2010/07/dece_shifts_to_ultra
violet.html
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Gah… it's a rather common P2P mechanism, not exclusive to AIR.
Don't know how they use the cache but yes, Home is based on Lua:
http://www.jroller.com/jnicho02/entry/playstation_network_home
Lua is popular on PSP as a homebrew run-time. So a simplified version on PSP2 may be possible. Since the screen is smaller, they'd need to redesign the UI.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Home is almost there as a central point to launch games on multiple platforms as well as a site to go to for simpler games. Still needs work...
Went into Best Buy and they had a Display for the Samsung blu-ray and TVs with Air 2.5 and they were advertising Apps like Monopoly, bowling, Pandora of course, Vudu, Netflix...this across from the Google TV displays.
The adhoc party integration is encouraging, PS Home already has leaderboards. They need PSN and Blu-ray game developers to sign up ! Even when Polyphony was over-extended, they didn't use PS Home. I think the management and Sony first parties don't trust Home, or don't want to overload it.
It's probably difficult to shoehorn the Lua run-time into existing games. Relaunching in and out of Home is too time-consuming.
In any case, I think the first step to Home game launching is to implement a persistent party system in the game. That way, we only need to launch once into the game, and then quit back to Home in the end -- while maintaining the same people throughout the session.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Beyond that I wonder if the Home development team responsible for the Client runtime engine is paralleling Google V8 or Webkit javascript engine design, I.E. JIT compiling bytecode to native code.
Also, how much of the Home client/ engine must remain in memory to keep Home active so that one doesn't have to load and unload then reload Home. Can they move to a more standard OpenGL for the display and have that modularized and used by a class of games meant to be used with Home so that only portions of Home would then need to be reloaded. I.E. both the game and Home would be using the same OpenGL drivers called by perhaps the same engine? It's the idea behind OpenGL WEB games inside browsers and Air games. Thought on this and the design of Open GL - Webkit will allow many features even with limited memory.
The above would also speed up porting to other platforms. This is part of my reasoning when I assume Air 2.5 is being used to add features. It's a tradeoff in possibly a larger runtime with Air loaded but more portability and optimized. It might even result in a smaller footprint for the Home engine.
Again the above is easily possible on the PS3 with a Hard Disk but if the design constraints assume SD memory at some point for storage the above is not happening.
What's to keep an Air javascript engine that JIT compiles to Open GL calls from accepting Lua bytecode to OpenGL, it's just a lookup table with exceptions, provide the table to the V8 or Squirrel fish extreme engine. The Home client then becomes an add-on to an Air 2.5 or Chrome port to multiple platforms. Or change from using Lua and have Home as a WEBGL game run from a Chrome Browser.
All the above requires a WEBKIT or Air in the PS3 and some thought and work. It's probably already in development as it's so obvious. It Gives Sony a LARGE advantage when WebGL games become popular on multiple platforms, provides a common site to launch from and the game would be downloaded for each session insuring DRM. We are talking more casual games though.
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jeff_rigby
Banned
http://blogs.adobe.com/air/2010/10/max-spotlight-samsung-sessions-explore-building-and-monetizing-applications-for-tvs.html
Others will follow this model for high end CE.
By the way, most of the above Air applications can also be used on Samsung Cell phones which will also have Air runtime support. Only if platform dependent features are used will the applications be limited to that platform. If they use the Ultraviolet model a game purchased for your TV would also be usable on your cell phone for no extra charge.
Many have professed a belief that Sony will never allow third party applications on the PS3. With Samsung supporting Air 2.5 in their TVs and Blu-Ray players with more to follow Samsung's lead and Samsung selling Air applications in a Samsung Store, the future in CE will have third party applications providing many new and exciting features. Imagine the Sony flagship PS3 as the only CE (blu-ray player) product without these new and exciting abilities. Sony must match or exceed others to attract sales so I believe we will eventually have cross platform Air applications and possibly Android applications on the PS3.
The Xbox currently does not allow WEB browser access but might allow WEB applications using Silverlight or Air. In fact, to overcome the advantage the PS3 will have when Chrome is released on the PS3 (if rumors are true) I believe Xbox will either provide a WEB browser of their own or push APPS in a big way. Again, Sony will have to match this. They can do this with apps or/and provide browser favorite buttons on the XMB for things like Google Earth. Widgets will, in my opinion, be coming to both consoles. With Google and Adobe providing free software to Sony, for the first time Sony might have the lead as the PS3 hardware is still more advanced and MS does will not have the advantage in at least WEB Software for consoles.
OK given cross platform Air applications that can be purchased from other sources like the Samsung store, how will Sony keep a lock on PS3 third party application sales? By providing hardware support for custom PS3 features not found in most of the third party applications designed for multiple platforms. Where will these apps that fully support (provide extended support) the PS3 hardware and Sony CE products be found, in the Sony PSN store of course. Example: The Xbox does not have HDMI CEC support but the PS3 does, support control of external Stereos with HDMI CEC commands.
Ok, how about third party casual games that are truly cross platform, provide a social networking and launch site like Home.
And it must have started before the BBC announcement October 2008: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/10/digital_media_anywhere.html as the Sony meeting with stockholders about cloud computing occurred at nearly the same time.
OK, if all the above is possible with Air, why port Chrome to the PS3? For WebGL games and to insure the PS3 is an indispensable feature in everyones living room.
Google and Adobe are working together and Sony is apparently on board (cloud computing, Ultraviolet, Google TV). It's a group effort and we have been assuming coincidence. Sony again is secretive and slower to implement. Samsung is first to announce Air in their products and to offer $500,000 in prizes for the best Air apps to support what they must feel is the future of CE.
Social Networking is mentioned in Adobe support groups as a way to get the younger (30's and younger) interested in Air applications and games. This I would guess is from marketing research done by Google or Adobe and Sony is following.
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jeff_rigby
Banned
But then it wouldn't have cross platform applications/games it could sell. Remember that we believe that Sony is going to release multiple Android hardware platforms next year. Air is also optimized for limited resource platforms (takes less memory). Did you mean going to OpenGL directly as HTML5 through the browser or through Air still needs to go through a javascript engine or DOM? not sure here.
http://business2press.com/2010/11/22/microsoft-silverlight-xbox-360/
Stretching speculation the release date of the "rumored" Silverlight is 4th quarter 2011. Sony's rumored release of Chrome on the PS3 is 2nd quarter 2011. The reasoning for the Xbox getting Silverlight to better position the game console against Google TV consoles not the PS3 is a little hard to believe. I suspect this is another weak argument that Chrome is coming and Air is now in the PS3 but won't be allowing cross platform Air or Android applications for some time yet.
A WEB Browser for the Xbox is BIG news as is the Market APP ecosystem. This then would match Sony web feature for web feature.
I also thought that the Xbox had Silverlight support as the BBC and others were streaming to the Xbox using MS's DRM.
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I don't know…
SCE should be good at squeezing computing resources in a small device. They don't really need Adobe's expertise. Given a choice between direct web interfaces and an Adobe interface, I think it's more likely for Sony to pick the former or roll its own. Big corporations like to own their platform where possible.
jeff_rigby
Banned
(Still not confirmed) PS3 firmware 3.5 provides the tools (Air2.5) for Web Applications on the PS3 to display Flash 3.5 streams (DRM, Adaptive streaming, commercial block detection and Social media interaction) and PSP Firmware 6.35 may be Air 2.5 providing the same features to the PSP.
Qriocity is going to be an Ultraviolet service and Ultraviolet universal DRM requires a compliant DRM like Adobe Access to be in the PS3 or PSP. Access is a part of Air 2.5.
35 is appearing in these update version numbers. Possibly Sony programmers consider this a significant update for all Sony gaming platforms and are pointing this out to those who know about what Flash 3.5 streams require on supporting platforms. The Adobe open screen project is providing Air 2.5 free to all internet platforms and this includes TVs, Blu-ray players, Game consoles, hand held game platforms, Cell phones, tablets, PCs (Linux, Mac, Windows). This to enable Ultraviolet and cross platform applications across the entire industry.
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/11/24/psp-firmware-update-6-35-prepares-america-for-qriocity-adds-x-r/
http://www.intergalacticgeek.com/2010/11/qriocity-curiously-omitted-from-ps3.html
Sony may be waiting for all Game platforms (PS3 and PSP) to support Ultraviolet DRM before enabling Qriocity.
Qriocity is going to be an Ultraviolet service and Ultraviolet universal DRM requires a compliant DRM like Adobe Access to be in the PS3 or PSP. Access is a part of Air 2.5.
35 is appearing in these update version numbers. Possibly Sony programmers consider this a significant update for all Sony gaming platforms and are pointing this out to those who know about what Flash 3.5 streams require on supporting platforms. The Adobe open screen project is providing Air 2.5 free to all internet platforms and this includes TVs, Blu-ray players, Game consoles, hand held game platforms, Cell phones, tablets, PCs (Linux, Mac, Windows). This to enable Ultraviolet and cross platform applications across the entire industry.
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/11/24/psp-firmware-update-6-35-prepares-america-for-qriocity-adds-x-r/
http://www.intergalacticgeek.com/2010/11/qriocity-curiously-omitted-from-ps3.html
Sony may be waiting for all Game platforms (PS3 and PSP) to support Ultraviolet DRM before enabling Qriocity.
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Okay, that's officially really stretching it. If the PSP wasn't already on firmware 6.3, let's say it was on 6.4, would the programmers bump the version number to 7.35? It's a coincidence.
jeff_rigby
Banned
One coincidence PS3's 3.5 possible but two with PSP 6.35...doubt it.
Remember they have had this mapped out for almost a year when they announced cloud computing and Ultraviolet. Tying it to the Flash stream version 3.5 which is a more stable number, announced way in advance of the Air version number is also logical. The Flash sites streaming to the PS3 are using Flash stream 3.5, at least the ones that can't use the PS3 browser.
I could go on to point out the "5" in the October official release of Air 2.5, the PS3 Firmware update 3.5, the PSP update 6.35 and the Flash stream 3.5 What are the odds in that happening by accident?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash_Media_Server
The announcement that Qriocity is enabled with firmware 6.35 on the PSP and Ultraviolet requiring Access in the PSP is another key here. The PS3 has no such announcement we just have applications like Mubi and Hulu we know use Flash 3.5 streams which require Air 2.5 or greater.
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You mean the number "35" appearing in the version number ? It is most likely a coincidence.
It has no marketing or technical value. There is no reason to align the version numbers. One simple patch and they'd be out of alignment anyway.
EDIT: Did you complete any WebKit mini-project ? ^_^
