Technological discussion on PS3 security and crack.*

[draconian]

bluray hack isn't that big of a deal. In september, intel confirmed that the hdcp keys were leaked. So, all bluray movies could easily be copied anyways.

I seriously hope sony starts reexamining the competence of the firmware team. They're were so many things that ps3 was doing but was actually ineffective. They didn't use efuse, they don't have memory encryption/memory hashing, they didn't even have no execute bit being used to protect against buffer overflow, etc....

 

[Trejser]

They should move FW team from SCEJ to SCEA or SCEE

 

[Gitaroo]

Yes, this maybe an option for the big PS3 exclusives like KZ3, R3 and possibly LBP2 although it may be too late.

Also, couldn't software be shipped with unique activation keys than need to be activated via PSN?

like pc serial numbers for online? I am sure they can, probably not too late to add and they should add it soon I hope. Especially for LBP2 loose quite a bit if your copy doesn't have the online portion.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

External USB drives are still a possibility but the fact that the PS3 can only deal with FAT32 on external drives brings its own challenges.

That won't be a problem if they can run unsigned code. It would just be a matter of time before someone implemented support for NTFS or ZFS or any other file system they wish.

Additionally, they'll eventually be able to put in support for playing files directly off network shares directly thus opening up NAS and other computers on the home network.

Assuming someone or some group decides to put in the effort.

Simple Solution - Pad all the PS3 exclusives with 50GB of data. Make certain to use full extent of BluRay which would make downloads too painfull for anyone. The rest anyone can get hacked on PC or 360 anyway so no increased risk.

That won't do anything. That was tried on PC with CD based games (wooo 14.4k, 28.8k, and 56k modems) and DVD based games. It was also done on Xbox discs and I believe on X360 discs. And was also done extensively on PSP games.

All it does is then allow more scene releases that are rips rather than straight cracks or patches of the games. So the padding will either be removed or in the case of movies and audio may get re-encoded to a lower quality to save space. And those will release side by side with direct unprotected copies.

Regards,
SB

 

[-tkf-]

A massive recall is needed, they have the AACS keys in the wild, and those will be re-leaked everytime they upgrade them, that is a really big problem. If i were Sony i was working on this now, and talking to 3rd parties about implementing the needed info on their upcomming games.

 

[Gitaroo]

I am very worried about LBP2, once the cheats and pirated copies flooded in. I think its probably too late for them to throw in serial number now.....unless they delay...

 

[orangpelupa]

Only on new PS3 hardware revisions with the updated metldr keys. Older PS3's would still be able to patch and play any new releases. In that case, all of our PS3's just appreciated in value

microsoft kind of done something like that with the revisions on xbox 360. The older console still can be jtagged. But the new console can't be jtagged.

In case of xbox, the piracy still continue thru DVD FW hacks. But in PS3 if something like that is done. The new PS3's will be secure. Piracy limited with the old PS3. Then just let the time to "take care" old PS3s.

 

[sebbbi]

microsoft kind of done something like that with the revisions on xbox 360. The older console still can be jtagged. But the new console can't be jtagged.

In case of xbox, the piracy still continue thru DVD FW hacks. But in PS3 if something like that is done. The new PS3's will be secure. Piracy limited with the old PS3. Then just let the time to "take care" old PS3s.

As the private master keys have been leaked, new homebrew and pirate games can be signed freely by anyone. If the new PS3 doesn't block all the old PS3 games (signed with the old private master key), it cannot block the new homebrew and pirated games either (signed with the same old private master key). You can't distinguish the old legal software from the pirated/homebrew ones.

The Xbox 360 security hole was much less minor, so they could patch it. The PS3 hole revealed all the private signing keys, so there's pretty much nothing Sony can do to make the platform secure anymore.

The reason for asymmetric cryptography is that you do not need to access the private key to check the signatures. The private key key can be locked to a very secure place inside Sony offices. However Sony did a major mistake by forgetting to seed their random generator properly, and the private keys could be calculated from the public ones found inside the console... Really stupid mistake indeed.

 

[Colourless]

Provided all officially signed content is encrypted, then in new PS3s with changed metldr keys they could required that all selfs be encrypted too. As of yet the encryption keys haven't been found only the signing keys.

 

[ban25]

They should move FW team from SCEJ to SCEA or SCEE

Actually, a lot of the GameOS system software was developed in Foster City. Not sure if that includes the security stack, though.

 

[ban25]

I seriously hope sony starts reexamining the competence of the firmware team. They're were so many things that ps3 was doing but was actually ineffective. They didn't use efuse, they don't have memory encryption/memory hashing, they didn't even have no execute bit being used to protect against buffer overflow, etc....

As a heap overflow that changed the pointer to a destructor, I'm not sure that would have helped, but a more secure USB stack (along with a host of other things), would have been a big improvement.

 

[ban25]

Actually, now that I think about it, AACS revocation is a pretty good stick to drive participation in a recall.

 

[Rotmm]

Why all this rediculous talk of a recall? Sony aren't going to invest in anything so drastic. Excluding the cost of replacing all those 'compromised' machines, can you imagine the logistical problems with ramping up production to quickly produce 40m replacement PS3's? And then the further logistical issues with receiving and replacing those 40m consoles worldwide.

Not. Gonna. Happen.

So please let's stop this idiotic thread of thought now.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Aye, I don't see how Sony could float a replacement of even half the current WW install base without potentially going into bankruptcy protection (or whatever the equivalent is in Japan).

Their best plan going forward is to attempt to minimize the damage as much as possible and possibly accelerate plans for the PS4. I'm not sure how possible it is for Sony to detect compromised systems and on top of that to then ban the machine from PSN. Then again without as strong a focus on online as there is with X360, I have a feeling the impact of that may be limited. As well, with the open nature of online gaming on PS3 combined with the ability to run arbitrary code, it might be entirely possible to continue online gaming without PSN over time.

I can't wait to see how Sony addresses this issue, but have a feeling that they won't be able to do much short of launching PS4 ASAP. Then again, there's always the chance that PS3 users won't pirate when given the opportunity.

Regards,
SB

 

[Phil]

bluray hack isn't that big of a deal. In september, intel confirmed that the hdcp keys were leaked. So, all bluray movies could easily be copied anyways.

September? I remember BluRay and HD-DVD rips going back over 2 years now... so I'm not too overly concerned by the PS3s being compromised.

Anyway, after Sony started locking out foreign credit-cards from PSN I'm pretty much of the opinion they can burn in hell. It's a shame that others in the same boat (developers/publishers/supporters) will suffer as well as a result.

 

[-tkf-]

Why all this rediculous talk of a recall? Sony aren't going to invest in anything so drastic. Excluding the cost of replacing all those 'compromised' machines, can you imagine the logistical problems with ramping up production to quickly produce 40m replacement PS3's? And then the further logistical issues with receiving and replacing those 40m consoles worldwide.

Not. Gonna. Happen.

So please let's stop this idiotic thread of thought now.

They just need to update the firmware?

 

[Rotmm]

They just need to update the firmware?

What's that got to do with anything? Whether or not (and in this case it's pretty obviously not) a firmware update can close this hole has no bearing on the fact that there's no way Sony would, or probably even could[/i] implement a product recall on this scale.

My guess is that they'll take it on the chin, play some cat 'n' mouse with pirates via firmware updates, ban from PSN those consoles they see using exploits (if they can) and realise that not all 40+m PS3 owners are now going to just pirate games. In fact, it'll still be a minority and, while it will be lost revenue for both Sony and other publishers, it's not as though a game that would have sold a million isn't going to sell a single copy. They should also pat themselves on the back that the system has managed to remain unbroken for 4 years.

To talk of a product recall is just laughable.

 

[senas8]

Question: Can metldr be updated/patched? And since geo hot is not publishing the metldr exploit, they can't just make new revision of ps3... since they don't know what to fix. Unless they do know exactly what geo did.

 

[orangpelupa]

As the private master keys have been leaked, new homebrew and pirate games can be signed freely by anyone. If the new PS3 doesn't block all the old PS3 games (signed with the old private master key), it cannot block the new homebrew and pirated games either (signed with the same old private master key). You can't distinguish the old legal software from the pirated/homebrew ones.

The Xbox 360 security hole was much less minor, so they could patch it. The PS3 hole revealed all the private signing keys, so there's pretty much nothing Sony can do to make the platform secure anymore.

The reason for asymmetric cryptography is that you do not need to access the private key to check the signatures. The private key key can be locked to a very secure place inside Sony offices. However Sony did a major mistake by forgetting to seed their random generator properly, and the private keys could be calculated from the public ones found inside the console... Really stupid mistake indeed.

sorry my understanding of cryptography not good.
btw i mean using new key with proper random number on new ps3.

something like : "New" PS3 on production is made with new keys with proper random number. Or whatever measures to make its secure. And still allow loading the games with the "compromised" key.

New games use maybe 2 executeable (2 EBOOT? 2 SELF?). "A" with the current key for old console to run, "B" with new key to be run on new console.

"new" PS3 will do a whitelist/check for new games.
on "new" ps3 = old game allowed all (hmm pirated games that resigned maybe still work..) . But on new games, "new" ps3 will check both executeable A and B.
even if hackers resign the "A", the "B" are using the new safe key. "New" PS3 need both of this to be valid to run the game.

On old PS3, can run the game as usual using the usual executeable.
old PS3 still can play new games. also Old PS3 still can play pirated new games.

Sony release 2 version of firmware update.
version A - for "old" ps3
Version B - is the new secure firmware, un-decryptable, for "new" PS3. The "new" ps3 also only accept this "B" firmware.

so sony still giving support to old ps3 to work. But pirates cant do harm to new PS3. But yeah this is not a really good solution for console that already huge userbase...

basically the current userbase will able to pirate all they want.
only the new buyer that can't pirate.

 

[-tkf-]

What's that got to do with anything? Whether or not (and in this case it's pretty obviously not) a firmware update can close this hole has no bearing on the fact that there's no way Sony would, or probably even could[/i] implement a product recall on this scale.

My guess is that they'll take it on the chin, play some cat 'n' mouse with pirates via firmware updates, ban from PSN those consoles they see using exploits (if they can) and realise that not all 40+m PS3 owners are now going to just pirate games. In fact, it'll still be a minority and, while it will be lost revenue for both Sony and other publishers, it's not as though a game that would have sold a million isn't going to sell a single copy. They should also pat themselves on the back that the system has managed to remain unbroken for 4 years.

To talk of a product recall is just laughable.

I worded it wrong, what i hope is that they don´t need to recall, but can update the firmware, bootloader etc at their service centers. You know, enable efuses, do whatever they can to make things incredible annoying for pirates, change the master code, do whatever they can to secure the future games.