How much would it cost to add wireless to the Xbox 360?

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Fractured there market as in you had to buy the Ethernet adaptor/hardrive to play on-line with the original PS2 sku (it didn't have this function built in). I believe it came with the original SOCOM if you bought that game.

You do not need to buy a wireless adapter for the X360 to go on-line. It's a matter of convenience/choice, not a requirement.

"Irrelevant, any online game could make use of wireless."

I'm referring to how many games actually had an on-line component for the PS2. Out of hundreds of games, is there more than 20 that utilized the ethernet port on the PS2? Can you name at least 20 without having to look it up on-line.
 
Out of hundreds of games, is there more than 20 that utilized the ethernet port on the PS2?

That's irrelevant because it does not apply to this situation! How many 360 games support online play? Yeah that's what I thought.

You do not need to buy a wireless adapter for the X360 to go on-line. It's a matter of convenience/choice, not a requirement.

Which is exactly the reason why it wouldn't fracture the market!
 
The PS2 added that port into well into it's life cycle and fractured there market somewhat. How many games actually utilized this functionality? What if you had a launch PS2? They also added a peripheral hard drive (how many people actually used it).

At least with the X360 the functionality is there if you want it. From the DS fat to the DS Lite, you get a smaller DS with additional brightness settings (am I missing something?).

With the PSP, I think its great that they added the TV out feature, but if you were one of the early adopters, wouldn't you have felt screwed that it wasn't backwards compatible (this is what I meant by fanboy fodder BTW).

I think maybe I'm being misunderstood, I don't mind that it wasn't built in...I do mind that it cost so much to add it on. I'd be singing a different tune if the X360 came out after the Wii and PS3 and still didn't have it built in.

Don't take it too personal...I just happen to disagree with your POV...can't we just get along:smile:

How many games used the network functionality? A LOT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_2_network_games

(Edit: There are currently 40+ online PS2 titles that are still active).

You may disagree with my POV, but if you used some facts it would strongly support your own POV, instead of reinforcing my own.

There is nothing to be lost by adding the functionality. Also, if you're certainly concerned with "Fanboy fodder" I think you may be on the wrong forum. Folks don't particularly like to discuss such trivial matters here.
 
That's irrelevant because it does not apply to this situation! How many 360 games support online play? Yeah that's what I thought.



Which is exactly the reason why it wouldn't fracture the market!

Every X360 game supports on-line in one way or another. Whether it voice chat, messaging, leaderboards, patches, etc. When MS released the X360, they made it standard that every game had to have some basic of on-line support. It doesn't have to support on-line play to support on-line.

How many PS2 games actually utilized the PS2 ethernet port for anything. It's not meant to be a sarcastic question. I can only think of a handful of titles myself.

I agree that the wireless built in wouldn't fracture the market. As I've said repeatedly, I would take issue with it if the X360 came after the PS3 and Wii and didn't have it built in. It wasn't a standard tech in consoles when the X360 released, it is now.

The X360 seems to be built upon easily having things added or changed. It can be played with or without the hard drive or it can be upgraded. It can be utilized with or without a wireless adapter. It can be played with or with out a wireless controller.

BTW, if you think I'm giving them a free pass, I'm not. I'm quite critical of the cost of the peripherals. I like the fact that I can choose to add the functionality later, but I don't like being charged the high premium.
 
How many games used the network functionality? A LOT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_2_network_games

(Edit: There are currently 40+ online PS2 titles that are still active).

You may disagree with my POV, but if you used some facts it would strongly support your own POV, instead of reinforcing my own.

There is nothing to be lost by adding the functionality. Also, if you're certainly concerned with "Fanboy fodder" I think you may be on the wrong forum. Folks don't particularly like to discuss such trivial matters here.

OK tha_con, you have 40+ titles out of how many games in the PS2's massive library?

You yourself had to use wikipedia. I asked how many games you could name without having to look it up...you had to look it up. This is not meant to be an attack or a gotcha. Before you looked it up, how many could you have actually named.

I've never said anything about lost functionality, did I? (not sarcasm)

BTW, I frequent these boards because I desire mature attitudes and thought. Of course I care about fanboy fodder as I value the quality of the posters and moderators here. I do not want it to degenerate into a GAF or Gamefaqs level. If you think otherwise, then maybe I need to reflect more on how I'm coming across on these boards.

Although I may disagree with you on this topic, I will still respect your opinion. All I ask is the same in return-Peace.
 
There must be something seriously wrong with your network.

I'm running a PC, Laptop, Wii, DS, PSP, Printer, PS3 off of my router. I also have my receiver with FM / AM radio (and XM), Microwave, HDTV, Cable Box, and tons of other electronics. On top of that, there are about 9 wireless networks within range with 50% signal or more.

I have never once lost connectivity with my systems.

In other words, you may want to learn a bit more about wireless connectivity, etc.

Also, it's worth noting that WiFi is generally faster than mots broadband internet connections, so using LAN really doesn't offer any "speed" advantage, and at most, will give you "stability" if your network has serious issues. Mine does not.

Still, excluding a feature that a large portion of your user base would appreciate because you want to make so much money is a little...ridiculous. I understand business is business, but still...sometimes you have to put the consumer first.

Uh... no. There is nothing seriously wrong with my network, other than my choice to use old equipment that satisfies my requirements. Using an 802.11B Lucent RG-1000 WiFi router manufactured in 2000. It's essentially the same router as the original Apple Airport. It even has a built-in 56K MODEM for those without broadband access. In fact, I used it with my telephone line when I didn't have broadband service in my area. It dialed into the MODEM pools at my work for internet access.

Interestingly enough, if I really wanted to, I can still use it in that way and play online with PS3, 360, etc over 56K dial-up. The other players would definitely complain about the lag.

Of course, one of the reasons I haven't bothered to upgrade is as you state. My broadband connection speed is well within the theoretical 11Mbs of 802.11b -- in real-world case, the 802.11B is actually a similar or a bit slower because of the following reasons:

* Variable SNR based on distance
* Interference from other radio transmitters.

I don't know how you can say *any* WiFi connection is not affected by interference on the same radio frequency. That defies logic. Of course, you may have a robust error correction or error recovery algorithm that helps maintain a connection. Before Lucent turned to Agere, and before they stopped maintaining the firmware on my router, it had a very poor ability to maintain connections when my microwave was going off (also from 2000). A firmware upgrade improved it such that the connection degraded, but did not timeout with a "Microwave oven noise fix" listed in the release notes.

Now, fast forward to 2008. My work -- a good sized University with a campus-wide 802.11G network recently had a bout of access point firmware upgrades required due to... guess what? Microwave oven interference. One of our network engineers from the IT department was walking around with a laptop running software that had an O-scope type display showing the signal to noise ratio of his WiFi connection. He did an experiment where he turned on the Microwave oven in the kitchen, and witnessed the SNR degrade on his connection to the APs. Interestingly, the connection stayed this way for a good five minutes after the microwave stopped emitting. Eventually, this was fixed with a firmware upgrade. We determined it was a case where the affected APs may have somehow detected a bad SNR between it and and client interfaces, and adjusted its frequency, channel, or whatever it does to try to correct it, but failed to return to its previous state after the microwave stopped. I really don't know the details, but it was strange. Most of our network equipment is Cisco or Enterasys, so I suspect the wireless kit is pretty well established.

My point is, I've never seen a wireless network as reliable as an ethernet network. Of course, I've also never seen a fully reliable ethernet LAN either. I do miss the days when a 10B2 LAN segment could be brought to its knees when someone popped a terminator off accidentally.

I am just simply saying that an ethernet LAN is the most stable and reliable network option for online gaming. Any wireless connection has the potential for more noise. Whether you notice any ill effects from it, I can't say... but that could just be due to the fact that programmers have to assume an unreliable connection these days when writing network code.
 
It would prob cost less than $5 per batch of a million units including mfg, packaging, support, etc. But that's just another $5m to the bottom line that is NOT NEEDED. Makes perfect business sense not to have it this gen but yes from a gamer perspective I wished they had it.
 
For MS adding built-in WiFi doesn't make much sense. If it's 3$ it's 3$ less in their pockets ;-) Not to mention they don't need it at the time SONY on the other hand uses WiFi also to PS3<->PSP connectivity so here it's must-have feature IMO.
 
Every X360 game supports on-line in one way or another. Whether it voice chat, messaging, leaderboards, patches, etc. When MS released the X360, they made it standard that every game had to have some basic of on-line support. It doesn't have to support on-line play to support on-line.

How many PS2 games actually utilized the PS2 ethernet port for anything. It's not meant to be a sarcastic question. I can only think of a handful of titles myself.

I agree that the wireless built in wouldn't fracture the market. As I've said repeatedly, I would take issue with it if the X360 came after the PS3 and Wii and didn't have it built in. It wasn't a standard tech in consoles when the X360 released, it is now.

The X360 seems to be built upon easily having things added or changed. It can be played with or without the hard drive or it can be upgraded. It can be utilized with or without a wireless adapter. It can be played with or with out a wireless controller.

BTW, if you think I'm giving them a free pass, I'm not. I'm quite critical of the cost of the peripherals. I like the fact that I can choose to add the functionality later, but I don't like being charged the high premium.

Here's my big qualm. Why should a company design their next system based on what is 'standard' in currently available consoles? If such was the case, we wouldn't have USB, Hard Drives, WiFi, HDMI support, etc. I just think it's really really short sighted to exclude one form of connectivity. Then again, I also think it's unfair to the consumer to do so just because you want to make massive amounts of profits (the mark up on that WiFi adapter is ridiculous).

As far as PS2 online titles are concerned, I could probably name a pretty large amount of titles that have at one point had online at one time or another, seeing as how I own a lot of those online titles (specifically sports and racing titles).
 
Then again, I also think it's unfair to the consumer to do so just because you want to make massive amounts of profits.
Since when is big business ever about being fair on the consumers?! We've seen one rare change in consumer value this gen with Sony going proprietary after their many failed attempts to create their own standards. MS is fleecing people for their peripherals. Nintendo is fleecing everyone on the Wii. And Sony's official peripherals aren't cheap either. Their HDMI cable is a monstrous markup. So apart from a few standards, 2.5" HDD (note the 80GB PS3 has a fleecing markup over the 40GB, +$100 for what's all of $5 extra cost if that!) and standard flash storage, it's business as usual from all sectors - charge as much a the pundits are willing to pay.
 
The market share for wireless technology is increasing, in 2006 it was 20% of the households with broadband internet and now 3 years on it should be much higher than that.

The Premium/Elite SKUs must have a far higher proportion of internet useage than the Arcade SKU and they make up ~50% of sales. These two are also produced on the CSON production line whereas the Arcades are all produced on the FDOU production line so there is no issue in seperate feature sets for the base consoles as the Arcades already come with built in Flash since the Jasper revision.

I know that the wireless adapter isn't a big seller, the real question for me are the customers selecting a better value alternative and purchasing PS3s instead or is wireless just not that big of a deal?

Also how much would it cost now to add in the functionality? I recognise value was a big reason for the absence of wireless in the first place, however the cost of the wireless units must have come down and the penetration of the networking technology must have increased rapidly since 2005 so perhaps it finally makes sense now.

Lastly, when do you see as the best time to add this functionality if they did? Would it be better to add it earlier in the year when the turnover of consoles is much smaller and the price-cut to move the older units acts as a tempoary sale as consumers are more price concious now or later in the year as a kick start to the holiday season?



IT would be very costly for them. First they have to pay for the liscense which i guess is $1-3 per device ? Then they actually have to include wifi into the south bridge of the console which would require A) More tranistors B) engineers to nclude it C) fab costs ( masks , tap outs , what have you)

I think it be very costly and I bet we wont see it till they shrink the console .
 
They don't necessarily have to integrate the WiFi circuitry into the SB. The WiFi could be an entirely separate chip with traces that connect to the USB's data pins. Yes it's a hack but it doesn't require redesigning the SB.
 
They don't necessarily have to integrate the WiFi circuitry into the SB. The WiFi could be an entirely separate chip with traces that connect to the USB's data pins.

so

increase in mobo costs and the cost to redesign the mobo for this new chip.
 
There's no hiding from the increase in costs. Nothing is free...however board level revisions are much cheap than chip level. Also the external USB WiFi adapter already has it's own PCB design so all one needs to do is cut and paste the same circuit on the main motherboard and have the power/data traces connect to the existing USB solder points. You could even have it as a separate daughter board if you don't want to change the main board.
 
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so

increase in mobo costs and the cost to redesign the mobo for this new chip.


One could make the argument that it would be feasible, using the recently introduced internal flash as an example. In the same vein, I would not be opposed to seeing the introduction of a wireless component in the Elite SKU...
 
Since when is big business ever about being fair on the consumers?! We've seen one rare change in consumer value this gen with Sony going proprietary after their many failed attempts to create their own standards. MS is fleecing people for their peripherals. Nintendo is fleecing everyone on the Wii. And Sony's official peripherals aren't cheap either. Their HDMI cable is a monstrous markup. So apart from a few standards, 2.5" HDD (note the 80GB PS3 has a fleecing markup over the 40GB, +$100 for what's all of $5 extra cost if that!) and standard flash storage, it's business as usual from all sectors - charge as much a the pundits are willing to pay.

I'm not saying that big business is about being fair to the consumer. I'm not trying to suggest that's their place, but to somehow justify it is a little OTT.

I believe the 40GB and 80GB are the same price in NA if you find them on shelves. The 160GB has a $100 markup. Still a ridiculous mark up.

Also, the PS3 and the 360 are both in different situations, where the PS3 (rather, Sony) may actually need that high markup to recoup costs lost on the console. The 360 is profitable, XBL rakes in tons of cash, and the software attach ratio is insane. The entire generation MS has been about what "isn't necessary" only later adding 1080p functionality, HDMI, and now their storage upgrade program. They are pretty much the PS2 of last generation, suffering from the same 'problems'.
 
I'm sure MS prefers the PS2 "problems" to the Xbox "problems".

The Xbox (1) lots tons of money, Xbox 360 makes them money.

The Xbox and Playstation brands really reversed themselves in terms of business strategy this year, which is perplexing -- why did Sony mess with what they have? I can see why MS would do what they do (and it is working), but Sony is just perplexing.
 
I'm sure MS prefers the PS2 "problems" to the Xbox "problems".

The Xbox (1) lots tons of money, Xbox 360 makes them money.

The Xbox and Playstation brands really reversed themselves in terms of business strategy this year, which is perplexing -- why did Sony mess with what they have? I can see why MS would do what they do (and it is working), but Sony is just perplexing.

Pretty sure that Microsoft still isn't out of the red from losses they incurred with the original Xbox. Sony is likely to be in the same position. The Difference between the two is MS spent loads of money on marketing and securing third party exclusives, Sony's losses thus far stem from hardware costs and low software sales.

That said, I would much prefer to see a shifting in power from company to company (even if one is borderline "Monopoly" driven) than I would see one remain in power for long periods of time.

I exclude Nintendo from the comparison of the two because they've had a good history of consumer support (even though the Wii is still $250...but then again, it has WiFi).
 
Sony and Microsoft are both actually alarmingly similar when talking about things like "monopoly" driven. I don't suppose you ever owned a Sony "network walkman" or whatever they called it? That was even more restrictive than any product in MS' history. Both Sony and MS historically acted similarly, the only real difference is MS has been more successful at what they try to do.

MS charges extra for the wireless because it brings in money. It's what they do. Sony does the same thing by charging $80 for an "official" PS3 HDMI cable, and if you think their controllers cost close to $55 to make you're very mistaken as well. Peripherals are a cash cow, it's to be expected. Sony included wireless because the game console is already ridiculously expensive, so they NEED to bundle "cheap" features to increase the value proposition. You can bet if they could, they would charge extra as well. They just can't.
 
IT would be very costly for them. First they have to pay for the liscense which i guess is $1-3 per device ? Then they actually have to include wifi into the south bridge of the console which would require A) More tranistors B) engineers to nclude it C) fab costs ( masks , tap outs , what have you)

I think it be very costly and I bet we wont see it till they shrink the console .

Im sorry I didn't mention it in the OP, but they have changed the south bridge.

Xbox 360 southbridge pre Jasper:

X5B
X02047-012
B-G0
9537PQD4241
A Taiwan

Xbox 360 southbridge post Jasper

P5B
X817692-001
B-A0
0837PTD4003

http://flickr.com/photos/31903705@N05/3097324271/in/set-72157610933360483/ <--- Jasper

http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/system/microsoft/xbox360/sb.jpg <-- Xenon.
 
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