Alternative distribution to optical disks : SSD, cards, and download*

[Fox5]

You're right. Never using Raid I forget all the options, but redundancy is ther for security, not performance. Raid-0 increases performance at the same HDD capacity.

RAID-0 allows the full size of each harddrive to be used. I'm not exactly sure, but I think it stores odd and even bits on the two drives, essentially doubling throughput.

BTW, why flash? Surely there must be a similar, possible non-rewritable tech that would be cheaper? How are mask roms doing?
Or perhaps build the RAID hardware into the system, and then use a custom flash package where the game developers can use as many chips of their choosing.

Nintendo is the company I'd see most likely to go a path like this, but even then, they're not overly concerned with load times anymore. They'd probably rather cut down on resources to a level a dvd can handle, then use a faster storage method.

 

[aaronspink]

BTW, why flash? Surely there must be a similar, possible non-rewritable tech that would be cheaper? How are mask roms doing?

while mask roms are slightly cheaper per bit, they require fab capacity and mask sets to be used so they likely end up being more expensive than flash. AFAIK, all application that used to use mask roms have switched to either NOR and NAND based flash because its generally cheaper overall with the added bonus of the ability to fix mistakes/bugs late into the design cycle instead of waiting 6+ weeks for new mask chips.

 

[Blazkowicz]

thats funny, I have a hard time finding any 4 gig flash for less than $9. Then again, I want my flash to actually be faster than a CD drive from 1990!

I understand what you say. I got my first USB drive in years, a cheap but "readyboost" 4GB one and its write speed goes lower than 10KB/s when copying many very small files! that was some DOS software junk. write speed is 5.2MB/s for a big file.

 

[fehu]

Shifty for some reason directed me to this thread

Nextgen spin off: ssd internal drive and not as a media distribution
I want to talk about this particular aspect of the next generation of consoles.
Considering that a mass storage is needed, for marketing o real use, and that the instalation/caching will be needed due to inevitably slow storage media, what are the real pros and cons of the inclusion of an ssd?

It must not be the fastest and the biggest, for pricing reasons, but good enought to be faster than a regular hdd.
Think about an api that let you cache the data in a fast large (8GB?) and relatively cheap memory from the BR-Next or from the installation in the regular hdd.

Will be redundant? Or a natural step between hdd/mediadisc and the memory?

 

[MrFloopy]

Wouldn't the biggest impediment to widespread or even majority digital distribution be the retailers?

Why would they stock the hardware if they can't get a share of the software? Sure they could sell the hardware at a profit, but I doubt they'd waste the shelf space for it and would likely hold out as a protest anyway.

 

[Squilliam]

Wouldn't the biggest impediment to widespread or even majority digital distribution be the retailers?

Why would they stock the hardware if they can't get a share of the software? Sure they could sell the hardware at a profit, but I doubt they'd waste the shelf space for it and would likely hold out as a protest anyway.

If they could sell more units using less shelf space im pretty sure they would be all for it. Say, using a kiosk system that lets you charge up an SSD disk for use in a console.

 

[MfA]

And lose their lucrative second hand games business?

 

[eastmen]

And lose their lucrative second hand games business?

Gamestops wouldn't matter if Microsoft / sony / nintendo can have their own kiosks in malls and in other stores. Just think about it. Instead of going to gamestop and dealing with an idiot clerk you go to a kiosk in your mall that has a video screen and shows you a short video of what your buying , gives you all the esrb ratings and explains it and downloads the item to your drive in a minute or two. Whatever game company does it can rent out space for kiosks every where. I'm sure bestbuy would love a kiosk for the xbox next that would allow them to store all the content remotely and just have a small display foot print than the amount of space that the current 360 library offers. They can easily team up with diffrent places that never carried games before. Shoprite , Stop and Shop , Rite aid , CVS and what have you because the space foot print would be extremely small. 7-11s would be another great place for them.

 

[Silenti]

So the idea is that the system comes sans optical drive, optional hard drive, and say a 32gb memory stick. I purchase more or larger memory sticks if I run it out of space. That way there is no stock of unused games like back in the cartrideg days and the additional price of any sticks are on me, the consumer. Hell, you could probably make it so that I can download to the hdd to clear space. Unless everyone plans on depending on the higher speeds some flash can provide.

I kind of like that. Download anywhere, anytime really. Hell, you could put them in late night fast food joints (hello Taco Bell.) The developers are not out any more money certainly. Hmmm.

 

[ban25]

The kiosk idea is straight out of 1980s Japan. The future is digital distribution, just like what we have today with Steam, XBL, PSN, etc.

 

[Silenti]

Sure, but then you have to worry about broadband adoption and availability. A kiosk isn't a bad back up to have.

 

[Squilliam]

There are a lot of compelling advantages for a console using a SSD type drive.

On the console side:

It will lower the fixed costs immensely over the lifetime of the console. If you have an Arcade type SKU and you can do without both a HDD and an optical drive, you could save up to $50 per unit over the lifetime of the console, and it absolves the need to use a memory card to save the games as well.

The console manufacturer can package the console easier, and infact they could easily use the console itself inside other consumer electronic devices such as TVs as there are no moving parts to break down and no optical drive to position on the machine.

On the development side:

Faster data throughput is obviously going to be a big plus as well as not having to deal with optical drive latencies. Also they will know that every SKU can be treated pretty much identically.

Data quantities available can scale easily with process generations, with the transister count doubling ever 2 years they could expect 4x the space will become available at the same price within a generation.

On the consumer side:

It will make the console quiet, dealing with a Blu Ray drive spinning at 6x speeds isn't going to sound very pretty as wel've seen from the Xbox 360. HDD installs aren't going to be as easy to manage with data densities as they are and install times getting longer.

The drives themselves are practically indestructable compared to the disc based media. No more scratches or fingerprint marks on discs will be a plus.

Lowering the initial purchase price of a console by making it simpler is going to be a plus for consumers. Also a lot of people hate things breaking down, so making the console far more reliable will be a big plus for some people.

On the Down side:

Expense! How much will one of these drives cost if you want to get the required data densities? Granted, by 2011,2012 we will have likely moved onto the 32nm process at least, so couldn't it be expected that the cost of the flash will be 3-4* lower than it is currently? The actual expense of the disks isn't a problem because publishers pay the console owner fee per disc produced and get a refund on unsold stock, so obviously the disks could easily be reused again if they aren't sold.

 

[grandmaster]

The downside is that with games using upwards of 7GB on average, you can't conceivably store all your games on your unit. And the size is still prohibitive for downloading them as you want them. Further, any kind of memory management also brings with it the sizeable risk of alienating the casual gamer.

The bottom line is that the next gen consoles WILL have an optical drive, especially as developers WILL want to be using that 25/50GB on the BDs.

I only see flash memory as good for caching in the way that the 360 HDD works now.

 

[Squilliam]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820609350

16gb SSD on a PCI-E bus for $47

40mb read/15 write.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227359

30gb SSD on a USB bus for $70 on Newegg

170 MB/Sec read, 100 MB write.

In 2-3 years time when its time to start a new generation you could easily see the costs of those devices come down markedly. We're looking at up to two process shrinks between now and then, and the control circuitry itself doesn't need to be duplicated as it can be installed inside the console itself.

If the console manufacturer is saving money on not installing a drive they can obviously subsidise the early disks anyway. A saving of $30 here, could pay for a subsidy of $6 over 5 disks for the first year until the prices come down enough.

 

[PalmiNio]

Looking at the semiconductor industry there is a bigger gain of economies of scale then the mechanized nature of normal HDD.

If the next Xbox or PS should have a drive it should be SSD and nothing else. The expansion is now beginning go get speed and with full scale use like in a console the cost reduction could be really fast. In the end there is vastly more space for reduction of cost in SSD then in today’s HDD.

Semiconductors price always walks towards zero, in mechanized products like HDD this is not possible.

My dream is that they will use a SSD with around 16-32gb for the OS-patches-Cache and so on and have an option to connect a external USB disk for saving content. These external drives should be the standard which is used on the PC market but ofcourse there will some requierment sequrity in them.

 

[eastmen]

The kiosk idea is straight out of 1980s Japan. The future is digital distribution, just like what we have today with Steam, XBL, PSN, etc.

Exept not everyone can do that. Can you imagine having to download a 30 gig game ?

There are a lot of compelling advantages for a console using a SSD type drive.

You also loose the bulk and weight of the drive. You suddenly have a 5 1/2 inch space inside your cnosole that is freed up. Either improving air flow or allowing you to make a much smaller system.

The downside is that with games using upwards of 7GB on average, you can't conceivably store all your games on your unit. And the size is still prohibitive for downloading them as you want them. Further, any kind of memory management also brings with it the sizeable risk of alienating the casual gamer.

The bottom line is that the next gen consoles WILL have an optical drive, especially as developers WILL want to be using that 25/50GB on the BDs.

I only see flash memory as good for caching in the way that the 360 HDD works now.

depends on the system you set up.

The console owner can simply buy more memory cards to store games on. Price them properly and there you go ms has a money maker on it. As the generation goes on and ssd prices drop ms can cange the options out there.

 

[ban25]

Exept not everyone can do that. Can you imagine having to download a 30 gig game ?

Sure, it takes less than half an hour. I have to wait longer than that just for the muni sometimes.

 

[Rangers]

Sure, it takes less than half an hour. I have to wait longer than that just for the muni sometimes.

What kind of connection is that??? That's what, 64 mbps??

 

[grandmaster]

The console owner can simply buy more memory cards to store games on. Price them properly and there you go ms has a money maker on it. As the generation goes on and ssd prices drop ms can cange the options out there.

Games will need to drop their retail prices significantly as you're effectively asking the consumer to buy both hardware and software. It also introduces consumer confusion.

If we want to unchain developers, we need to give them the storage space BD provides. If developers are making 25GB games, you may as well cut out this whole hardware+software approach and simply ship the games on flash media.

Then it becomes a matter of economics: ship games on an optical disc that costs pennies to make or else effectively go back to cartridges.

Much as I want as optimal a gameplay experience as possible, I just don't see the money side of things adding up in SSD's favour. What I can see is the inclusion of flash media as an HDD-style cache, but within the console itself.

 

[specwarGP2]

BD is the only option for retail hidef movies. It is insane to think that PS4 will not have a BD drive. I'm certain the next xbox will have it too. There's no way MS will concede that bullet point. Remember how MS downplayed HDMI?

Shipping games on flash media will never be cost effective compared to optical disk, and while the kiosk idea sounds like it could work, it's not idiotproof like simply buying a prepackaged game on BD. Companies would have to set up dedicated support lines for resolving issues like the kiosk machine didnt load the game, or why doesn't this particular media work. You could solve that issue by having only one type of official sanctioned media, but then there would be the issue of counterfeits. Case in point: many memory sticks sold on ebay are actually cheap knockoffs.