New interview about Ps3 CM:Dirt

[blakjedi]

I can't see how MS with 1/3rd the 1st party developers (or whatever it is) at their disposal can produce as much platform-pushing software as Sony. They're not 3x as talented, and they haven't got 3x as much investment from the parent company either, seems to me.

I dunno... I accept your line of thought...but I just dont think that its really quantitative at all... I think most of processes for reproducing 3d fidelity on screen are either a)Unknown, b)known and not feasible, c) known and doable not so well or, d) well known and doable... I think in terms of research and patents both companies may be equal in resources to bring out "A". "B" is function of hardware power methinks. "D" is being done using broad engines. "C" is the place where Hacks and tricks like NAO32 would come into play.

The answer to the question is probably not necessarily manpower... because the efficient implementations for software algorithms are heavily based on a games design, so your design needs define your software programming needs...so either you solve your own problems or you ask and I would think that programmers regardless of platforms share their tips and secrets....

 

[swaaye]

You talk aboiut facts, yet offer none, just your limited appraisal and heavily biased perspective. You're not just looking at screenshots? Oh, well, that makes you automatically an authority and you've played every signifcant 360 title and even "gasp" own a few. Wowzer! Here's a stick of gum, maybe you can show us how to chew it.

I'm biased? How, exactly? I just see here the usual dreamy consoler mentality that somehow hardware can be pushed to infinity. Reminds me of my N64 days.

Sure things will incrementally improve as devs figure little things out and optimize more. But the hardware of every console is being pushed right now. Thinking that the devs have no idea how to make the machines push near their potential is rather idealistic. You've seen what the machines can do at the new 720p console res. The released AAA games are basically what you can expect from this generation. We've seen lots of games struggling to keep playable framerates and what devs do to keep high frame rates in some games.

Does PS3 have untapped potential? Yeah, I guess. Right now it's gimped because of the odd, new CPU it has. Middleware isn't working well at all on it. So in the future it has some potential to grow there. Just what potential that relates to, who knows. PS3 has also shown to have possibly less GPU capability, though, where in some ports visual quality has been reduced. Oblivion and Rainbow Six for example, from what I've read.

I promise that I have no giddy vested interest in any of the machines. But, 360 is the only console so far with a game or two I want to play (Mass Effect and a couple of racers)... I don't even own 360. A friend went off to China and let me borrow it with his games. I bought Forza 2 and Dirt for it. I do own a Wiiiiaste of money (in the closet, unused for months)

All IMO, of course, heh heh.

 

[patsu]

I see where you're coming from, but I don't see how you can jump from square 1 to the end game just like that. In my mind, there seems to be many variables still (on _both_ PS3 and Xbox 360 developers' plates). In addition, 360 and PS3 are very different from past consoles. I don't think one can rely solely on past console history to forecast progress.

In my view, Mr. Wibble's post here (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1037212&postcount=96) addresses some of your doubts.

You also seem to answer your own questions:

Does PS3 have untapped potential? Yeah, I guess. Right now it's gimped because of the odd, new CPU it has. Middleware isn't working well at all on it. So in the future it has some potential to grow there. Just what potential that relates to, who knows. PS3 has also shown to have possibly less GPU capability, though, where in some ports visual quality has been reduced. Oblivion and Rainbow Six for example, from what I've read.

If you're so uncertain about your assessment, why the strong belief and language ? It seems there is little to back up your conclusion (Like I said, it may speak more to your current experiences with the consoles, demoes and trailers).

Comparisons between versions of Oblivion, Rainbox Six and Dirt are available elsewhere in this forum. You might want to re-read them to gain more insights about whether they can help you gauge future next-gen games.

 

[wowfactor]

I second that patsu.
It's the first time ever that someone took Oblivion as an example of downgrade. Maybe he lives in an opposite world.

 

[sevanig]

Yer he sounds very biased, maybe you should borrow a ps3 and then judge which is better...

 

[archangelmorph]

I dunno... I accept your line of thought...but I just dont think that its really quantitative at all... I think most of processes for reproducing 3d fidelity on screen are either a)Unknown, b)known and not feasible, c) known and doable not so well or, d) well known and doable... I think in terms of research and patents both companies may be equal in resources to bring out "A". "B" is function of hardware power methinks. "D" is being done using broad engines. "C" is the place where Hacks and tricks like NAO32 would come into play.

The answer to the question is probably not necessarily manpower... because the efficient implementations for software algorithms are heavily based on a games design, so your design needs define your software programming needs...so either you solve your own problems or you ask and I would think that programmers regardless of platforms share their tips and secrets....

Just a few points to throw at you:-

- Budget/Time conquers all.. So basically your not going to be able to spend 4 months getting that brand-spanking new fake Global illumination model (you learned at GDC last yr) setup and running for your next if you don't have the resources to do so (AND ship your product on time).. So in the end you're forced to try and work some improvements into your existing lighting engine and hope that when the next project rolls around you'll have the time and resources to build a new one from scratch..
- Time = Money & is defined by "a resource that you really can't afford to waste", expecially when too many delays to your project puts it in danger of being either shipped unfinished or canned altogether..
- Money = sum of manhours available and so the more you have the longer your developers can spend on the project [scope] which includes longer pre-production, more R&D, more time for tools etc..
- Money = sum of manpower available and thus the more you have, the more devs you can use to work concurrently on different areas of the code to get things up and running quickly..

In short, quantity matters not because having 100 developers working on 50 games (as opposed to 60 devs working on 10) somehow makes each developer work smarter/better but because 100 developers working on 50 games provide a greater potential of at least 10 of them being any good AND because that same budget can be focused to provide 80 devs spending even more time to make even more of those 50 games awesome..

Time = money = more manpower = more man hours = more game awesomeness

 

[blakjedi]

... 100 developers working on 50 games provide a greater potential of at least 10 of them being any good AND because that same budget can be focused to provide 80 devs spending even more time to make even more of those 50 games awesome..

Time = money = more manpower = more man hours = more game awesomeness

Uh.. I think rather than spend money on 100 developers looking for 10 great ones... you just find ten great ones. In fact, I think by definition console makers make those 10 great developers first party developers if at all possible and let the third party market do the 10 to 1 shakedown on its own.

Shifty and other peoples' points were that Sony has 100 great in-house devs versus MS' 33. My issue then became that MS and Sony have the the same problems. If you can solve the problems with 33 engineers versus 100... you end up in the same place.

 

[archangelmorph]

Uh.. I think rather than spend money on 100 developers looking for 10 great ones... you just find ten great ones. In fact, I think by definition console makers make those 10 great developers first party developers if at all possible and let the third party market do the 10 to 1 shakedown on its own.

Shifty and other peoples' points were that Sony has 100 great in-house devs versus MS' 33. My issue then became that MS and Sony have the the same problems. If you can solve the problems with 33 engineers versus 100... you end up in the same place.

I meant 10 great "games" not "developers"..

 

[blakjedi]

I meant 10 great "games" not "developers"..

OK so we have different points altogether.

Personally I like MS' catalogue since 2005. Folks may not find Kameo, PDZ, Condemned, PGR3 and CoD2 exceptional... sure they arent brand names like FFXIII, and MGS but those were five launch games which each have elements which frankly havent been surpassed on any console yet... the texture quality on Kameo is unrivalled for example... Then Graw and Oblivion then Gears and Crackdown.

I didnt get the same quality of software at launch from the other two consoles. One of which may never achieve that quality and the other has at least a month before it starts to match the catalogue from a year and a half ago. I would love to see the second round of x360 games from the same developers (Bizarre, Monolith, IW, Rare and Epic) go up against the 100 developers and 10 Games from Sony which by all counts in this thread should be better...

CoD4 looks like a winner already. Condemned 2 is coming. PGR4 seems headed in the right direction, and Rare and Epic are on blackout status at least until the fall if not next year's E3. Heres to hoping!

 

[Arwin]

There are so many things going on here, it's almost useless to talk about it. One very important aspect is obviously how well code is shared between the different developers. This can make a huge difference all on its own. I think Phil Harrison is making good progress with that, and I'm sure Microsoft is doing similar stuff. Investing in making middle-ware run well on the system is another example.

 

[Darkon]

OK so we have different points altogether.

Personally I like MS' catalogue since 2005. Folks may not find Kameo, PDZ, Condemned, PGR3 and CoD2 exceptional... sure they arent brand names like FFXIII, and MGS but those were five launch games which each have elements which frankly havent been surpassed on any console yet... the texture quality on Kameo is unrivalled for example...

Uncharted says hi

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Uncharted isn't out yet is it?

 

[almighty]

Uncharted isn't out yet is it?

Whats that got to do with anything? Its not like its going to have a massive downgrade to the textures, infact they will more then likely be improved for final release.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Whats that got to do with anything? Its not like its going to have a massive downgrade to the textures, infact they will more then likely be improved for final release.

Im not saying they are going to, im saying it isn't out yet. Therefore, the "Kameo textures are still unrivaled" is still a perfectly valid argument.

As far as uncharted textures goes, i cannot comment on it, as i haven't looked at much footage.

 

[Nesh]

Textures in Kameo were hiding the hugely low polygon models and environments. I sometimes felt that the models came out of an XBOX game and then "pasted"on them huge quantities of normal mapping to hide this. I dont feel that Kameo is a visual achievement.

 

[archangelmorph]

Textures in Kameo were hiding the hugely low polygon models and environments. I sometimes felt that the models came out of an XBOX game and then "pasted"on them huge quantities of normal mapping to hide this. I dont feel that Kameo is a visual achievement.

Amen to that.. I own the game and I really don't think it's so great texture-wise..

 

[blakjedi]

Amen to that.. I own the game and I really don't think it's so great texture-wise..

See! I told you so! But I do! :shrug:

In the near future, I do see possibly Uncharted, Heavenly Sword and definitely LBP demolishing Kameo's textures... however Rare has been pretty silent since dropping their launch games... The Fall games shows are coming and we have very little info on whats instore for '08. Point is, considering that Rare's games for example were rushed launch games from TWO YEARS ago, developed on brand new unfinished hardware for the most part, they did an excellent job of achieving next gen visuals which have stood up to newer games and consoles. Now with proper time, budget, knowhow and tools lets see what they do.

To me PGR4 and CoD4 are the first of the xbox360's second generation offerings (Halo3 ISNT imho). By all accounts both of those games are fairly exceptional in their genres.

 

[patsu]

See! I told you so! But I do! :shrug:

In the near future, I do see possibly Uncharted, Heavenly Sword and definitely LBP demolishing Kameo's textures... however Rare has been pretty silent since dropping their launch games...

Heavenly Sword and LBP are first generation PS3 games right ? Lair is showing some good potential as well. Even Uncharted is NaughtyDog's first attempt on PS3.

The Fall games shows are coming and we have very little info on whats instore for '08. Point is, considering that Rare's games for example were rushed launch games from TWO YEARS ago, developed on brand new unfinished hardware for the most part, they did an excellent job of achieving next gen visuals which have stood up to newer games and consoles. Now with proper time, budget, knowhow and tools lets see what they do.

Heavenly Sword was in development (on unfinished hardware) since X YEARS AGO too. The difference is: While MS/Rare chose to rush Kameo out, Sony decided to delay titles such as Lair (and perhaps Heavenly Sword) to achieve their desired standards. Doesn't this illustrate that besides more first party studios, Sony is also committed to quality -- as opposed to corporate timeline and price differential -- to sell the brand ?

In addition to the PS3 games you mentioned, others like Resistance, MotorStorm, F1, Warhawk (beta) and Dirt are outstanding too.

To me PGR4 and CoD4 are the first of the xbox360's second generation offerings (Halo3 ISNT imho). By all accounts both of those games are fairly exceptional in their genres.

No idea what PS3 second generation games are. R&C and CoD4 probably are 2nd gen by your definition. But really, I don't see why and how we want to compare different games on the consoles. It's not as if we don't have enough games to play already.

 

[Phil]

I just love it when game A with textures B in genre C in compared to game X with textures Y in genre Z is compared... really shows the high quality of discussions as of late... Especially when considering that there's more to a game than just... textures?

 

[archangelmorph]

I just love it when game A with textures B in genre C in compared to game X with textures Y in genre Z is compared... really shows the high quality of discussions as of late... Especially when considering that there's more to a game than just... textures?

Hehehehe...

Especially when:-

B <> Y -> true;
C <> Z -> true;

and:-

( (A - C) * Z / X - Y^2 ) / B = ... ... ... Nevermind...