WiiGeePeeYou (Hollywood) what IS it ?

[PeterT]

The slowdown is most likely CPU related. Many rigid body physics engines generate a joint/joints to resolve interpenetration of objects, and if there are many objects colliding with each other, that means many joints. In that way, all the objects are interconnected, and thus the performance does not scale linearly with the number of objects involved in a collision, but worse (how much worse depends on the algorithm used for solving the system).

Edit:
Also, though I don't want to get into comparisons too much, since you asked: The same kind of action obviously would not cause slowdown on the other consoles. Wii has a 730 MHz G4-derived (?) single-core CPU. XB360 has a triple core 3.2 GHz CPU with real SIMD, and PS3 has 7 computational cores at 3.2 Ghz, each of which by itself is more powerful at the kind of single precision floating point number crunching that is required for the simulation than the Wii CPU.

 

[V3]

Just read a review about elebits:

During the 10+ hours that it requires to finish Elebits youll be hard pressed to find many issues. At times its a bit hard to open doors and shoot Elebits because of collision issues but that really doesnt detract much from the fun. The only real show stopper comes late in the game during the final two levels where some serious slowdown occurs. The areas are large, there are 100s of Elebits on screen, and a ridiculous amount of building and objects all colliding in one big physics equation. It essentially turns into a slideshow at this point, but its still playable.
http://www.gamebrink.com/nintendo-wii/1897-Elebits-reviews-2.html

slloowwwddddooooowwwwwwnnnnnnnn.........

I thought slowdown was a thing of the past especially because the Wii doenst have to worry about outputting in HD. Actually Im wondering if slowdown is due to the CPU or the GPU
As well, can anyone postulate if this the kind of action that would cause slowdown on 360s or PS3s? Is the slowdown due to sloppy programming?
Or is the slowdown intentional so the player does'nt get overwhelmed?- seriously, sometimes I like slowdowns in games reminds me of slow-mo in movies.

If you read the earlier interview, one of the dev said they have trouble keeping up the frame rate with all the physics that are going on. I forgot what their solution was, I think it was to make the game to 30 fps instead of 60 fps or maybe just the physics loop or tone down the physics, I forgot, it was sometime ago when I read it.

 

[matrix960]

If you read the earlier interview, one of the dev said they have trouble keeping up the frame rate with all the physics that are going on. I forgot what their solution was, I think it was to make the game to 30 fps instead of 60 fps or maybe just the physics loop or tone down the physics, I forgot, it was sometime ago when I read it.

For the time developpement, I think that slowdowns are not very revelant of the power of the machine.

 

[MDX]

If you read the earlier interview, one of the dev said they have trouble keeping up the frame rate with all the physics that are going on. I forgot what their solution was, I think it was to make the game to 30 fps instead of 60 fps or maybe just the physics loop or tone down the physics, I forgot, it was sometime ago when I read it.

maybe this from IGN?
We had another interesting experience with the Wii hardware when we started to implement our physics system. The strength of the Wii is controls rather than crunching computations, but we wanted to use a new physics engine to enhance the sense of realism in the game. It was challenging, but we pulled it off and our physics system is now a great showcase for the game. Every object has an appropriate weight and interacts realistically with the environment. Even though it's not the main object of the game, the physics system adds a lot of replay value to Elebits. It's fun to just fool around in the levels, tossing things around and building structures out of what you find. There's more than one way to trap and Elebit, I'll tell you that much!

In addition to what we already know about the Wii, there are a few features that are still relatively secret that make up the system's "X-factor." These include the WiiConnect24 feature, the speaker on the controller, the Wii Channels and Mii functionality. I am continually impressed and inspired by the functionality of the Wii.

 

[crystall]

Wii has a 730 MHz G4-derived (?) single-core CPU.

G3-derived.

 

[matrix960]

G3-derived.

It's a G3 with a lots of upgrade : the 64 bit fpu can be used as 2 32 bits fpu, a better cache control, compression (2x to 4x). Also there is library for graphics use.

 

[Teasy]

Also, though I don't want to get into comparisons too much, since you asked: The same kind of action obviously would not cause slowdown on the other consoles. Wii has a 730 MHz G4-derived (?) single-core CPU. XB360 has a triple core 3.2 GHz CPU with real SIMD, and PS3 has 7 computational cores at 3.2 Ghz, each of which by itself is more powerful at the kind of single precision floating point number crunching that is required for the simulation than the Wii CPU.

I agree (obviously) that the same kind of action would definitely run significantly better on 360's CPU. Though since your mentioning advantages of the 360 CPU like real SIMD ect, I just thought I'd mention that the CPU does have some sacrifices, in order processing for example (vs out of order for Broadway). Its definitely much faster but certainly not better in every way.

 

[wsippel]

Also, though I don't want to get into comparisons too much, since you asked: The same kind of action obviously would not cause slowdown on the other consoles. Wii has a 730 MHz G4-derived (?) single-core CPU. XB360 has a triple core 3.2 GHz CPU with real SIMD, and PS3 has 7 computational cores at 3.2 Ghz, each of which by itself is more powerful at the kind of single precision floating point number crunching that is required for the simulation than the Wii CPU.

OTOH, I don't remember seeing any similar complex, interactive, predictable physics on either Xbox360 or PS3 so far. In fact, the physics in most "next-gen" games are so completely wrong, it's simply laughable...

 

[PeterT]

Its definitely much faster but certainly not better in every way.

Certainly. In fact, one piece of hardware is almost never "better" in every way than another one. I would never seek to imply that. I was talking specifically about physics simulation in a game environment. And that requires mostly (single-precision) FP performance.

OTOH, I don't remember seeing any similar complex, interactive, predictable physics on either Xbox360 or PS3 so far. In fact, the physics in most "next-gen" games are so completely wrong, it's simply laughable...

While this has nothing at all to do with the capabilities of the respective hardware platforms, and everything to do with what kind of software you choose to run on it, I'd like to remark 2 things:
- Elebits' physics are certainly interactive and predictable, but I wouldn't call them complex. It seems like a basic rigid body simulation with coarse convex collision hulls and a very simple friction model.
- The water + ships + lots of rubber duckies demo on PS3, while not a game, was not just similarly interactive and predictable, it was also more complex in terms of quantity (number of duckies/water particles) and quality (ie. detail of collision primitives, water simulation) than what I've seen of Elebits so far.

I'm a big fan of the Wii (In fact I'll start queuing for one in less than 10 hours!) and Elebits seems like a very innovative and fun game, but I still find myself arguing again and again in this thread because people try to make Broadway and Hollywood something they simply are not.

 

[matrix960]

Certainly. In fact, one piece of hardware is almost never "better" in every way than another one. I would never seek to imply that. I was talking specifically about physics simulation in a game environment. And that requires mostly (single-precision) FP performance.

While this has nothing at all to do with the capabilities of the respective hardware platforms, and everything to do with what kind of software you choose to run on it, I'd like to remark 2 things:
- Elebits' physics are certainly interactive and predictable, but I wouldn't call them complex. It seems like a basic rigid body simulation with coarse convex collision hulls and a very simple friction model.
- The water + ships + lots of rubber duckies demo on PS3, while not a game, was not just similarly interactive and predictable, it was also more complex in terms of quantity (number of duckies/water particles) and quality (ie. detail of collision primitives, water simulation) than what I've seen of Elebits so far.

I'm a big fan of the Wii (In fact I'll start queuing for one in less than 10 hours!) and Elebits seems like a very innovative and fun game, but I still find myself arguing again and again in this thread because people try to make Broadway and Hollywood something they simply are not.

Huuummm I agree with you, the Cell is as expensive as the Wii console in total... So Wii will never achieve that level of performance. I think that Nintendo has done a good thing : reuse an architecture to exploit it to its maximum and force developpers to think more about gameplay, history, wiimote, fun than high rez textures, games non playable by everybody, surround sound, games with so much CG in 1080p (thanks the Bluray)... I will buy my Wii tomorrow (release date in France)

 

[swaaye]

I tend to see it a bit less idealistically. Publishers will more likely see the Wii as a cheap cash in for ports and low-cost-development titles. IMO. I guess we'll see how it goes. I don't want to see a zillion cross platform games.

 

[fearsomepirate]

people try to make Broadway and Hollywood something they simply are not.

I said explicitly again and again, "Better than Gamecube." What was the implication there?

 

[Megadrive1988]

I just think of the Wii as the Project Dolphin system released, without the downgrades, and I am not just talking about the GPU core clockspeed /bandwidth downgrade that GameCube went through in 2001.

if you go back to 1999 and 2000, the description of the Dolphin is basicly what the Wii is.

Dolphin was:

DVD based
~30 million textured, fully featured polygons/sec realworkd, in-game performance
more powerful than PS2, about as powerful as Xbox
upto 64 MB RAM
sensor-based controllers
online network / surf the web

sound familar ?

 

[MDX]

I agree (obviously) that the same kind of action would definitely run significantly better on 360's CPU. Though since your mentioning advantages of the 360 CPU like real SIMD ect, I just thought I'd mention that the CPU does have some sacrifices, in order processing for example (vs out of order for Broadway). Its definitely much faster but certainly not better in every way.

This sounds similar to what I read in this blog:
http://kingludic.blogspot.com/2006/11/agile-wii.html

My sources are mostly snippets of forum flak, but the saturation is good enough, with the precedent of the GameCube's chip, that I'm going to stick my neck out and say it is indeed an out-of-order chip. Xenon and Cell are in-order, which is bad for gameplay innovation, according to friend of game developers everywhere, Mr. Checker:

So, as you know, graphics and physics grind on large homogenous floating point data structures in a very straight-line structured way. Then we have AI and gameplay code. Lots of exceptions, tunable parameters, indirections and often messy. We hate this code, it’s a mess, but this is the code that makes the game DIFFERENT. Here is the terrifying realization about the next generation consoles: I’m about to break a ton of NDAs here, oh well, haha, I never signed them anyway.

Gameplay code will get slower and harder to write on the next generation of consoles. Modern CPUs use out-of-order execution, which is there to make crappy code run fast. This was really good for the industry when it happened, although it annoyed many assembly language wizards in Sweden. Xenon and Cell are both in-order chips. What does this mean? It’s cheaper for them to do this. They can drop a lot of cores. One out-of-order core is about four times [did I catch that right? Alice] the size of an in-order core. What does this do to our code? It’s great for grinding on floating point, but for anything else it totally sucks. Rumours from people actually working on these chips – straight-line runs 1/3 to 1/10th the performance at the same clock speed. This sucks.

So the great strength of the PS3 and Xbox 360 come at a cost, not just in terms of manufacturing, but in terms of performance, and consequently in terms of production costs relating to programming.

Wii can do stylized graphics and multi-threaded AI, it can provide a vast range of visual aesthetics and simulations. Wii is like a Ninja, while PS3 is like a Samurai and Xbox 360 is like a Knight wearing glasses. Who do you think would win in a fight?

 

[fearsomepirate]

I just think of the Wii as the rumor version of Project Dolphin system released, without the unfortunate dose of reality

5 or 6 years from now, people will be looking at those long-debunked rumors of what Wii would be that were the product of little more than fan imaginations and handwavy suggestions, and say that "Wii 2 is what Wii was originally intended to be without all the massive downgrades."

Whatever Gamecube was rumored to be was either exaggeration, speculation, or the specs of one of various prototypes. Imagining that this was what Gamecube was "really" supposed to be is just folly. You bring it up again and again, and I know you were crestfallen when the rumors turned out to be false, but you need to realize that they were just rumors.

 

[MDX]

You bring it up again and again, and I know you were crestfallen when the rumors turned out to be false, but you need to realize that they were just rumors.

Crestfallen.... wow, just wow.

 

[thejeek]

I went ahead and got a Wii this morning - I wasn't going to but then I thought what the hell.

Super Monkey Ball is definitely more graphically complex:
- better textures
- apparently better filtering (is it ansotropic when the amount of blur is dependant on the slope of a surface? anyway - looks better than SMB1/2 on Cube)
- depth of field effect
- alpha blending in what appears 24 bit framebuffer (no obvious dither or banding)
- maybe more polygons, not sure from memory and no longer have previous SMB titles to compare with

I can do screen captures if anyone's interested of this, Wii sports or Rayman (via composite video capture card tho). I haven't been able to determine the framebuffer resolution yet - it's outputting 576 lines, screen captures would probably reveal if there's any scaling going on.

 

[Iron Tiger]

I went ahead and got a Wii this morning - I wasn't going to but then I thought what the hell.

Super Monkey Ball is definitely more graphically complex:
- better textures
- apparently better filtering (is it ansotropic when the amount of blur is dependant on the slope of a surface? anyway - looks better than SMB1/2 on Cube)
- depth of field effect
- alpha blending in what appears 24 bit framebuffer (no obvious dither or banding)
- maybe more polygons, not sure from memory and no longer have previous SMB titles to compare with

I can do screen captures if anyone's interested of this, Wii sports or Rayman (via composite video capture card tho). I haven't been able to determine the framebuffer resolution yet - it's outputting 576 lines, screen captures would probably reveal if there's any scaling going on.

There's obvious dithering and banding in Red Steel, Zelda, and Excite Truck, but it's only obvious with the component cables. Composite blurs everything to hell.

 

[Megadrive1988]

5 or 6 years from now, people will be looking at those long-debunked rumors of what Wii would be that were the product of little more than fan imaginations and handwavy suggestions, and say that "Wii 2 is what Wii was originally intended to be without all the massive downgrades."

Whatever Gamecube was rumored to be was either exaggeration, speculation, or the specs of one of various prototypes. Imagining that this was what Gamecube was "really" supposed to be is just folly. You bring it up again and again, and I know you were crestfallen when the rumors turned out to be false, but you need to realize that they were just rumors.

well I have to at least partly disagree. SOME of it was rumor/speculation, but at least half of the things about Dolphin were actual reports / press releases. like the amount of RAM in the system. even a major company at the time, Sega, believed Dolphin would use sensor-based controls. if you want me to dig up the links I can, but why bother. It seems Nintendo significantly scaled back the scope of the system as GameCube.

I don't think I will be saying that Wii 2 is what Wii was originally going to be, because there was far less information / expection as far as what Wii was going to be, compared to Dolphin. I have almost no expectations right now about Wii2 other than Nintendo said it would be an HD-system.

 

[swaaye]

There's obvious dithering and banding in Red Steel, Zelda, and Excite Truck, but it's only obvious with the component cables. Composite blurs everything to hell.

Yeah, in Wii Zelda the night sky/sunset/sunrise is like a textbook example of what ordered dithering looks like. Ick. There are constant reminders of the color depth whenever you get into a dark area. But, hopefully this is just happening cuz it's a Gamecube game.

Does anyone else think it's strange that a GPU with even Flipper's complexity would have color depth limitations like that?