Do you think there will be a mid gen refresh console from Sony and Microsoft?

[Shifty Geezer]

There's been a really slow start with this gen and that makes me skeptical you could move to another generation anytime soon. They need to continue letting the install base grow and game engines mature for this gen and then selling into that.

As a new 'generation', the proposed Xbox would still run the same games, just better. You either buy XBSS or XBSX or XB:TNG depending on what quality experience you want. The new hardware would just avoid having to be byte compatible with the current XBS consoles as a mid-gen refresh conceptually would. Of course, with suitable extrapolation a new console with the latest silicon could be called an XBSX+ or an XB:TNG depending on what MS wanted to do regards positioning and perceived advancement of the hardware. If the progress was large enough, you could go 'new gen' route, and if it's only a moderate improvement over XBSS, call it a mid-gen refresh.

 

[mpg1]

As a new 'generation', the proposed Xbox would still run the same games, just better. You either buy XBSS or XBSX or XB:TNG depending on what quality experience you want. The new hardware would just avoid having to be byte compatible with the current XBS consoles as a mid-gen refresh conceptually would. Of course, with suitable extrapolation a new console with the latest silicon could be called an XBSX+ or an XB:TNG depending on what MS wanted to do regards positioning and perceived advancement of the hardware. If the progress was large enough, you could go 'new gen' route, and if it's only a moderate improvement over XBSS, call it a mid-gen refresh.

Yeah except new console development costs money and I don't think developers want a load of target specs. This is more or less what Phil Spencer said.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yeah except new console development costs money and I don't think developers want a load of target specs. This is more or less what Phil Spencer said.

As they already deal with the floating specs of Windows, I don't see how a new XBox hardware impacts that. This of course assumes moving from a console mindset, optimising forthe hardware, to a PC mindset, you get whatever experience based on the hardware you own. The devs can trot out a PC game with a few presets for the console experience having tested on that hardware. It'd mean a less optimal console experience versus the traditional and where PS is at the moment, but it'd allow a faster iteration of hardware, which might drive XB hardware faster than without. If there are 10 million XB owners who'd have the latest and greatest, if you release a new console every 7 years that's 10 million every 7 years. If you release a new console every 3 years, that's ten million every three years with the old units being sold or passed on. Extending that for the sake of argument, release a new console every year and that's 10 million sales every year, 70 million units over 7 years where MS are unlikely to sell that many units to individuals.

It really depends on the mentality of the enthusiast XB owner, how quickly they'd upgrade and what they'd expect from new hardware.

 

[Sonic]

There is zero chance - MS is not in the console business anymore.
They are failing harder than during PS4/ Xbone One Era.
They will probably not even release a new Xbox to compete with PS6...
Or - they make it dependend on the merger deal. If that goes through and they can therefore steal CoD from Playstation and having it on their new plattform then yes they might follow up with a console.
If the merger is stopped then so will be their new xbox.

They're still in the console business. They're likely working on new hardware. I take what Phil Spencer with a grain of salt. I've good reason to believe they're actively working on new console hardware. Whether that's a new Xbox gen or an upgrade to Xbox Series remains to be seen. It's plausible they decide nor to go forward with new hardware if they deem it against their business interests.

But then one has to wonder if that will hinder future growth of Gamepass or even shrink its current userbase due to no longer selling a dedicated platform and those gamers potentially moving over to PS. I suppose they could go to PC, but it won't be all the Xbox gamers.

 

[cheapchips]

This comment was from Eurogamer's interview, but he said something similar to IGN (I think). RoG Ally and Steamdeck haven't escaped his notice, he keeps name checking the former. Is a fourth model something they're considering alongside Cloud/Console/PC? Hardware or something from MS that bridges the Console and PC spaces in a way these handhelds are sort of doing.

"But if we get into a console world where, every two years, we now have three or four closed ecosystems that are upgrading their hardware every two years, I'm gonna wonder - how is that helping creators or players? To me it feels like we are creating a ton of complexity for creators and players in something that used to be very simple. And maybe there's another model for us."

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I read that as "business model", not releasing new hardware over and over.

 

[Seanspeed]

And we have no reason to think it should be dramatically different than with PS4 Pro. PS4 Pro was really well designed from the start, hardware + SDK. All PS4 games could very easily be upresed (with or without CBR helpled by notably the ID Buffer and a few others new hardware tech) and run about the same as on PS4 Pro. We even got a few bonuses in some cases (better framerate, up to 60fps, better settings). In the case of reconstruction Sony had included a few examples in their SDK with performance comparisons / optimizations hints of how to use CBR / reconstruction in different ways (including temporal injection used by Insomniac).

For PS5 Pro Mark Cerny will think about the same issues developers could face and he will make it easy for them to do PS5 Pro version of their games, whatever the new tech (both hardware and software) he as planned for that console.

I disagree PS4 was 'well designed'. It was ok, but I think fell well short of delivering on the brief of '4k gaming', which the XB1X clearly did much better. PS4 Pro had little memory or bandwidth increases to really make this happen, not that the GPU itself was really quite sufficient either. Best thing about it was the price point they managed to deliver it at.

Also, I dont think the comment you're responding to is really about 'ease of use'. I think any sort of mid-gen console wont be hard to develop for. Even the XB1X which went with a different fundamental memory setup than XB1 didn't seem to be any problem last generation. Their comments were more about timing, thinking that if Sony releases a PS5 Pro next year, that Microsoft would do well to basically just release a proper new generation console in 2025/2026 to counter instead of a Pro model of their own. I disagree with this reasoning 110%, just explaining what their comment was trying to say.

 

[eastmen]

No.

You don't think that Sony constantly releasing new systems would hurt the brand ? People who just shelled out x amount of money for a pro will now find themselves with an outdated system.

 

[eastmen]

Anybody who jumps very early trying to release a 'new gen' system will get punished heavily for it. It would also represent an incredibly underwhelming leap from this generation and set a frustratingly low bar for next-gen. Nobody would be happy with this. Microsoft also seem like the last company to do this right now, given how heavily they have leaned into cross-gen releases.

This generation needs to last longer. At least until like 2028. You guys acting like developers are already tapping out what the XSX/PS5 can do are being silly. There's a lot of life left here. We're just getting started.

I don't think I agree with you at all on that point

Zen 2 is a bottleneck in these systems. A 2025/6 console with zen5/6 in it would be a huge benefit. We can already see the gains of the 7x00 series (zen 4) over zen 2. A new console could take advantage of xillian (sp?) tech amd purchased along with perhaps big little cpu designs from amd

While its hard to know what is going on with radeon with rumors of rdna 3.5 and 4 canceled 2025/26 could bring you right into their new architecture which could drastically improve raytracing performance. We might also see improved FSR from amd that makes use of specialized hardware vs the current fsr technology.

Other things can be infinity cache to help with bandwidth , gddr 7 , much faster nvme drives and so on and so forth. IN terms of ram you could end up seeing MS expand their split ram speed and perhaps we would see 16gigs of fast gddr 7 and 4-8 gigs of slower gddr

For MS this could actually be a large advantage when it comes time to release the next COD games. If ps5 pro is just rdna2/zen 2 but faster it would be unlikely it would come anywhere near what a newer machine can do but would still maintain parity with xbox series consoles.

And we have no reason to think it should be dramatically different than with PS4 Pro. PS4 Pro was really well designed from the start, hardware + SDK. All PS4 games could very easily be upresed (with or without CBR helpled by notably the ID Buffer and a few others new hardware tech) and run about the same as on PS4 Pro. We even got a few bonuses in some cases (better framerate, up to 60fps, better settings). In the case of reconstruction Sony had included a few examples in their SDK with performance comparisons / optimizations hints of how to use CBR / reconstruction in different ways (including temporal injection used by Insomniac).

For PS5 Pro Mark Cerny will think about the same issues developers could face and he will make it easy for them to do PS5 Pro version of their games, whatever the new tech (both hardware and software) he as planned for that console.

My point isn' that ps5 pro would be badly designed. It is just zen2/rdna 2 but clocked higher and more cu's isn't the best way to scale performance esp in cpu bound situations and raytracing bound situations. New generations of zen and rdna would be much better suited for it hopefully. Like I posted above the ryzen 7000 series is already a large step up over zen 2

 

[Seanspeed]

I don't think I agree with you at all on that point

Zen 2 is a bottleneck in these systems. A 2025/6 console with zen5/6 in it would be a huge benefit. We can already see the gains of the 7x00 series (zen 4) over zen 2. A new console could take advantage of xillian (sp?) tech amd purchased along with perhaps big little cpu designs from amd

While its hard to know what is going on with radeon with rumors of rdna 3.5 and 4 canceled 2025/26 could bring you right into their new architecture which could drastically improve raytracing performance. We might also see improved FSR from amd that makes use of specialized hardware vs the current fsr technology.

Other things can be infinity cache to help with bandwidth , gddr 7 , much faster nvme drives and so on and so forth. IN terms of ram you could end up seeing MS expand their split ram speed and perhaps we would see 16gigs of fast gddr 7 and 4-8 gigs of slower gddr

For MS this could actually be a large advantage when it comes time to release the next COD games. If ps5 pro is just rdna2/zen 2 but faster it would be unlikely it would come anywhere near what a newer machine can do but would still maintain parity with xbox series consoles.



My point isn' that ps5 pro would be badly designed. It is just zen2/rdna 2 but clocked higher and more cu's isn't the best way to scale performance esp in cpu bound situations and raytracing bound situations. New generations of zen and rdna would be much better suited for it hopefully. Like I posted above the ryzen 7000 series is already a large step up over zen 2

Again, there's no reason they have to stick with Zen 2. Even if they did, it will not be this grand bottleneck.

The point also isn't 'could a new system be better?', you need to think much bigger picture than that. We're talking an entire new baseline for a new generation. You seem to be thinking only in terms of hardware specs, not the actual industry that such a release would affect.

Like, it's hard to even know where to begin to say how insanely awful a 'new generation' console releasing in 2025/2026 would be. It would be an absolute catastrophe.

 

[eastmen]

Again, there's no reason they have to stick with Zen 2. Even if they did, it will not be this grand bottleneck.

The point also isn't 'could a new system be better?', you need to think much bigger picture than that. We're talking an entire new baseline for a new generation. You seem to be thinking only in terms of hardware specs, not the actual industry that such a release would affect.

Like, it's hard to even know where to begin to say how insanely awful a 'new generation' console releasing in 2025/2026 would be. It would be an absolute catastrophe. You really have no mind for this kind of thing at all.

You can reread my posts in this thread. I specifically call out the fact that Sony can either go with a ps4 pro type approach that would be more zen2/rdna 2 or go with new generations of technology. However I also posted that Sony had to keep cu counts and other things in line between the ps4 and ps4 pro. Sony could have limitations in changing the hardware to a new generation of chips.

Also what would be the difference between a zen 4/rdna 3/4 ps5 pro and a new console in 2025/2026? Do you think developers are going to give up developing for ps5/xbox series ?

 

[Seanspeed]

You can reread my posts in this thread. I specifically call out the fact that Sony can either go with a ps4 pro type approach that would be more zen2/rdna 2 or go with new generations of technology. However I also posted that Sony had to keep cu counts and other things in line between the ps4 and ps4 pro. Sony could have limitations in changing the hardware to a new generation of chips.

Also what would be the difference between a zen 4/rdna 3/4 ps5 pro and a new console in 2025/2026? Do you think developers are going to give up developing for ps5/xbox series ?

Why aren't you asking YOURSELF this exact question? Cuz it's huge, but you just threw out the idea anyways without really considering it.

I mean jesus christ, if a new console in 2025/2026 was only about developers making 'enhanced' versions of XSX/PS5 games, then it's literally just a Pro version, aint it? How can you not understand that? And if it takes like three years before any 'new generation' games release for it, then it's the most pointless thing in the world. Why not just wait and make a better console later?

 

[eastmen]

Why aren't you asking YOURSELF this exact question? Cuz it's huge, but you just threw out the idea anyways without really considering it.

I mean jesus christ, if a new console in 2025/2026 was only about developers making 'enhanced' versions of XSX/PS5 games, then it's literally just a Pro version, aint it? How can you not understand that? And if it takes like three years before any 'new generation' games release for it, then it's the most pointless thing in the world. Why not just wait and make a better console later?

The utter irony. I came here cuz I wanted to deal with more informed and intelligent people, but then people like you make it clear that was misguided.

You are right what I am thinking. Obviously when Nintendo tried it with the switch they failed horribly and are now out of business right ? Man I really do miss nintendo games, don't you ? Imagine releasing a new console just 5 years after the last one. Oh yea and wouldn't it be amazing if MS made it past launching the xbox360 just 4 years after the xbox ?

If only there was a company out there that had a platform that could run software from the 1980s all the way up to present day. You know that same platform that constantly has new games taking advantage of the most cutting edge graphics and cpu hardware out there. Man wouldn't it be amazing if that same company was planning on at least 4 major releases a year and is now buying one of the largest IP's on console that gets yearly updates . Wouldn't be even more interesting if said company puts out a cutting edge console and is able to target that new hardware spec with all those games and that huge yearly franchise ?

But you are right, its not like I can give you examples of other times a company launched a new console early.

No you must be right because being a sarcastic asshole who doesn't actually care to read other posts or think hey maybe someone else has a different view point. Surely only you could be right

Man I really miss nintendo and MS making consoles. If only they didn't release new consoles so quickly into the life of their consoles. If only the wii u had a wii u pro surely they would have still stayed in the market. If only MS released an xbox pro and not the xbox 360 they certainly would have remained in the market. But hey this isn't going to go anywhere so good bye

 

[cheapchips]

I read that as "business model", not releasing new hardware over and over.

By hardware, really meant that they are in position to do something more with PC. The gaming equivalent of why Surface devices exist.

In hindsight, Valve have really shown MS Gaming up with the Deck. For the portable niche at least, they've successfully bridged console and PC gaming. To add insult to injury, it doesn't even run Windows.

The whole mid gen refresh exist in part because Sony started bleeding users to PC. As a hardware/software/partnerships effort, MS should be doing more to open that up and make PC gaming more accessible.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Why aren't you asking YOURSELF this exact question? Cuz it's huge, but you just threw out the idea anyways without really considering it.

I mean jesus christ, if a new console in 2025/2026 was only about developers making 'enhanced' versions of XSX/PS5 games, then it's literally just a Pro version, aint it? How can you not understand that?

That's not the way to debate it. Frame the argument in a proper, unemotional discussion.

@eastmen : What's the difference between a Zen 4/RDNA 3/4 PS5 Pro and a Zen 4/RDNA 3/4 PS6 in 2025/2026?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

By hardware, really meant that they are in position to do something more with PC. The gaming equivalent of why Surface devices exist.

In hindsight, Valve have really shown MS Gaming up with the Deck. For the portable niche at least, they've successfully bridged console and PC gaming. To add insult to injury, it doesn't even run Windows.

Yet MS won't care so long as it runs Game Pass. Although gaming Surface makes sense.

 

[eastmen]

That's not the way to debate it. Frame the argument in a proper, unemotional discussion.

@eastmen : What's the difference between a Zen 4/RDNA 3/4 PS5 Pro and a Zen 4/RDNA 3/4 PS6 in 2025/2026?

I have posted in this thread in the past and recently in the last day or so that a zen4/rdna3/4 ps5 pro would be a better option if that is what they go with. But I don't think any dev would commit to fully taking advantage of the ps5 pro with that hardware since it would lkely mean removing graphical featurs completely from the ps5 version of the game. If we assume a 2024 release of the ps5 pro the ps5 will be at over 50-60m units before the ps5 pro even releases. The other factor would be a shorter console life for the ps5 pro. If it releases in 2024 and a new generation starts in 2027/8/9 there wouldn't be a large window of time to support it.

Now if the ps5 pro was such hardware it would be better off getting named ps6. That way no one assumes any parity between the systems and devs could if they choose to only target the ps6. I don't believe sony would every do this because they don't have too


But for MS this would be a different story. I spoke in a prevoius post that MS was successful in moving from the xbox to the xbox 360 in only 4 years (2001-2005). Nintendo was successful going from the wii u to the switch (2012-2017).

I don't think for MS a zen4/rdna3 would be enough for a new console. But depending on release date the new console could be zen 6 or beyond that (zen 5 should be next year) It can also be post rdna 4. You also get some interesting things happening in the amd cpu space. They bought xillian I believe and now an ai company now for fpga.

Take a zen cpu circa 2025/6 with xillian fpga tech to accelerate MS's ai , couple that with a hopefully much better ray tracing gpu in a 2025/26 rdna gpu , plus some fast and higher quantity of ram and you could have a pretty good leap in performance.

IF MS would release something like that they could in theory target their releases at the time. Assuming the ABK purchase completes you'd have COD optmized for the console on release, you'd have likely outerworlds 2 and likely TES 6 ready to go around the launch also. All those can simply target the new console along with MS's other titles.

In such a senario it will leave sony between a rock and a hard place. A 2025/6 would be just 1-2 years after the ps5 pro. IF the ps5 pro ends up being just more zen2/rdna2 it wont be able to compete with the new console. Even if it was zen4/rdna 3 it wouldn't compete. So their option would be to bring out a next gen console after juts 1-2 years from the pro or wait longer and allow MS to take a larger foot hold in the market.

 

[Globalisateur]

I have posted in this thread in the past and recently in the last day or so that a zen4/rdna3/4 ps5 pro would be a better option if that is what they go with. But I don't think any dev would commit to fully taking advantage of the ps5 pro with that hardware since it would lkely mean removing graphical featurs completely from the ps5 version of the game. If we assume a 2024 release of the ps5 pro the ps5 will be at over 50-60m units before the ps5 pro even releases. The other factor would be a shorter console life for the ps5 pro. If it releases in 2024 and a new generation starts in 2027/8/9 there wouldn't be a large window of time to support it.

Now if the ps5 pro was such hardware it would be better off getting named ps6. That way no one assumes any parity between the systems and devs could if they choose to only target the ps6. I don't believe sony would every do this because they don't have too


But for MS this would be a different story. I spoke in a prevoius post that MS was successful in moving from the xbox to the xbox 360 in only 4 years (2001-2005). Nintendo was successful going from the wii u to the switch (2012-2017).

I don't think for MS a zen4/rdna3 would be enough for a new console. But depending on release date the new console could be zen 6 or beyond that (zen 5 should be next year) It can also be post rdna 4. You also get some interesting things happening in the amd cpu space. They bought xillian I believe and now an ai company now for fpga.

Take a zen cpu circa 2025/6 with xillian fpga tech to accelerate MS's ai , couple that with a hopefully much better ray tracing gpu in a 2025/26 rdna gpu , plus some fast and higher quantity of ram and you could have a pretty good leap in performance.

IF MS would release something like that they could in theory target their releases at the time. Assuming the ABK purchase completes you'd have COD optmized for the console on release, you'd have likely outerworlds 2 and likely TES 6 ready to go around the launch also. All those can simply target the new console along with MS's other titles.

In such a senario it will leave sony between a rock and a hard place. A 2025/6 would be just 1-2 years after the ps5 pro. IF the ps5 pro ends up being just more zen2/rdna2 it wont be able to compete with the new console. Even if it was zen4/rdna 3 it wouldn't compete. So their option would be to bring out a next gen console after juts 1-2 years from the pro or wait longer and allow MS to take a larger foot hold in the market.

What you are outlining is about what happened with PS5 having only RDNA1 and XSX using 'true' RDNA2. Now what actually happened is Sony used the most important RDNA2 feature (hardware accelerated intersection RT) and ignored the rest (the "RDNA2 hardware VRS") because they knew game engines wouldn't need it. And they were 100% right as history proved. RDNA2 hardware VRS is an half-baked feature (textures get blocky, now way around it) and devs actually have better results by doing their own software implementations (COD), and avoiding blocky textures by specifically not using the new hardware block.

And the fact that MS already announced they wouln't do a mid-gen console should be another hint of them knowing that "true RDNA 4" features wouldn't be enough to counter PS5 Pro console which will supposedly (from leaker and patents) use similarly the most important feature of RDNA4: hardware accelerated ray traversal.

 

[see colon]

Why aren't you asking YOURSELF this exact question? Cuz it's huge, but you just threw out the idea anyways without really considering it.

I mean jesus christ, if a new console in 2025/2026 was only about developers making 'enhanced' versions of XSX/PS5 games, then it's literally just a Pro version, aint it? How can you not understand that? And if it takes like three years before any 'new generation' games release for it, then it's the most pointless thing in the world. Why not just wait and make a better console later?

I think it's obvious, though. If you have a PS5Pro, it plays PS5 games, just better. A PS6 would play PS6 games. Perhaps it's just a marketing difference, but if they launch a PS6, they can make games that don't have to target the PS5 spec at all if they choose not to.

 

[Karamazov]

are there any reliable source confirming there will actually be a PS5 pro ?