Current Generation Games Analysis Technical Discussion [2023] [XBSX|S, PS5, PC]

[Inuhanyou]

@BitByte

Are you not being somewhat unfair? I do think Xbox needs significant restructuring but Nintendo is it's own beast. They make such good content that it would not matter what happens with wii or wii u. If they just make a simple enough machine like the switch it can let the software sing.

What Nintendo does isn't necessarily something you can just replicate across the industry, they have essentially perfected their model of content people will desire rain or shine

 

[Remij]

Problem is that Phil has been trying to "kumbaya" his way through the last half of the previous console generation and this one... when he should have been going balls to the walls exclusive content specifically for their console. He's absolutely right that the last generation was the worst possible generation to completely lose because now with the consoles essentially continuing on through backwards compatibility, people have locked themselves into ecosystems and they're harder to sway than ever to leave.

However, I completely disagree. They don't need to remove Sony marketshare.. they just need to build their own. Most people would have no issue owning multiple consoles IF the consoles all have enough unique content to make them worthwhile, and outside of Gamepass, Xbox hasn't been bringing much... So I disagree. If they would just build great games that people wanted, they would absolutely gain marketshare.

Now, buying exclusivity will cost them dearly because they're so far behind Sony... and let's face it.. their consumers are buying less games than ever as they are being conditioned into using Gamepass... so you have extra cost there as well for exclusivity because they have to take into account the "likely" lack of full price sales as well.

Now that said, I think the idea of focusing on building up these other platforms (PC, Cloud, Mobile) IS the right call. They have a much better chance at beating Sony in those areas... and they essentially have to get out in front of them... but still, they need great content to do that. So in the end it all comes back to great games.

They need to stop playing nice. Start making strategic deals for exclusive games. Court some Japanese developers and do what you can there. Hardcore gamers love Japanese games and knowing that your platform will have a steady stream of content from all over makes purchasing for that platform much easier.

 

[BitByte]

@BitByte

Are you not being somewhat unfair? I do think Xbox needs significant restructuring but Nintendo is it's own beast. They make such good content that it would not matter what happens with wii or wii u. If they just make a simple enough machine like the switch it can let the software sing.

What Nintendo does isn't necessarily something you can just replicate across the industry, they have essentially perfected their model of content people will desire rain or shine

No I don't think I am. Sony managed to completely replicate Nintendo's formula. They found their niche and perfected it. Now they're trying to expand from that base into multiplayer. Frankly, looking at Microsoft's slate of games to be released, they all look horrible imo.

Starfield - Technically incompetent from what we've seen so far. What is the game about? No one knows. From the footage, does it look fun and exciting? Absolutely not.

Hellblade 2 - Technically competent but is a sequel to a game that doesn't need one. Does the game look fun? Nope. Is it something that we haven't seen before? Nope.

Forza MS 8 - Technically competent but fails to advance Forza forward in any meaningful way. It has worse car models that older games from early screenshots and the art direction is... well it's something alright.

Fable - You couldn't make a new IP?

Everwild - Cool art direction but it's not technically impressive. A competent team could get it to run on the xb1. It looks like Kena bridge of spirits. It was announced in 2019 and it's now 2023. When's it coming out? Nobody knows. Will it attract users to the xbox platform? Unlikely.

Perfect Dark - Another pointless remake. The initiative was formed in 2018 and it's 2023. There's no game, there's no gameplay footage, there's no release date. So essentially those at the initiative have just been collecting a free salary for 5 years while having nothing to show for it.


Out of all the games i listed, there is only 2 new ips and both are thoroughly unimpressive. Nothing about this list of games signals to me that Xbox is serious about competing in this space. They're not taking any risks at all and they don't know how to create good games that capture the imagination of the audience. I mean, Phil Spencer looked at these games and gave them the greenlight? The only game on this list that should have seen gotten the green light is Forza MS 8. The other teams should have been sent straight back to the drawing board to come up with better ideas. Even EA, the king of releasing sequels and creatively bereft games recognized their problem and created the EA partners program. That's how they got It takes two, Apex and more.

Honestly, Steve Jobs said it best:

 

[function]

This is super off topic chaps. Would make a good discussion in the general forum though no doubt.

 

[BRiT]

Calling for people to be fired has no part to play for technical discussions.

Go take a breather.

 

[Flappy Pannus]

And here... we... go!

https://twitter.com/SheriefFYI

lol

 

[Flappy Pannus]

I'm actually very surprised that a AAA budget Star Wars game released by EA, and by a respected game developer (Respawn) would have these kinds of mistakes. I know a lot of people are leaving game companies to go into research or to work at Nvidia or UE where they don't have to be tied into game crunch and release cycles, so maybe some of these big studios really are losing their technical expertise.

Illustrating why it's not quite so simple to make the distinction between "bad devs" and "bad publishers" - they two are of course interlinked. The publisher sets the culture of the company and creates an environment when talent can be attracted and retained, if they don't value technical expertise then those that have it will leave for a company/industry that does. Poor implementations of tech are due to the choices the developer makes absolutely, but the skillset on retainer is reflected in the priorities of those paying the bills. It doesn't matter if you have extensive code review practices at your company if the person doing the review either doesn't have the knowledgebase to effectively audit your code, or rather doesn't have the authority to actually hold up a deeply flawed product from being released.

It also gets back to the critique I and others have with the media ecosystem of the PC DIY industry, there's just not nearly enough focus on the software side of things, it's largely left to DF. I think there are outlets that are definitely respectable and have a strong sense of ethics like Gamers Nexus, there's definitely a lot of chuff in this industry on the hardware sides that deserves to be called out. But by and large, the choice of vendors you make in building a PC will have a relatively minimal impact on your PC gaming experience, at least in terms of performance consistency that the end user has control over - you're not going to avoid traversal stutters by choosing Nvidia or AMD, or buying a Gigabyte vs. Founders Edition GPU. So much airtime is devoted to the minute differences in vendor components when it's the software implementation bottlenecking performance.

 

[Scott_Arm]

@Flappy Pannus Can't disagree with any of that.

 

[trinibwoy]

Illustrating why it's not quite so simple to make the distinction between "bad devs" and "bad publishers" - they two are of course interlinked. The publisher sets the culture of the company and creates an environment when talent can be attracted and retained, if they don't value technical expertise then those that have it will leave for a company/industry that does. Poor implementations of tech are due to the choices the developer makes absolutely, but the skillset on retainer is reflected in the priorities of those paying the bills. It doesn't matter if you have extensive code review practices at your company if the person doing the review either doesn't have the knowledgebase to effectively audit your code, or rather doesn't have the authority to actually hold up a deeply flawed product from being released.

It also gets back to the critique I and others have with the media ecosystem of the PC DIY industry, there's just not nearly enough focus on the software side of things, it's largely left to DF. I think there are outlets that are definitely respectable and have a strong sense of ethics like Gamers Nexus, there's definitely a lot of chuff in this industry on the hardware sides that deserves to be called out. But by and large, the choice of vendors you make in building a PC will have a relatively minimal impact on your PC gaming experience, at least in terms of performance consistency that the end user has control over - you're not going to avoid traversal stutters by choosing Nvidia or AMD, or buying a Gigabyte vs. Founders Edition GPU. So much airtime is devoted to the minute differences in vendor components when it's the software implementation bottlenecking performance.

Software is a much harder nut to crack though. The intersection of people who know how to competently use software profiling tools and people who want to talk about it on YouTube is probably a big fat zero. It’s much easier to benchmark hardware.

We’re lucky this one dude on Twitter had extra time on his hands. I’m pretty sure developers know about these issues because they have access to the same profilers. It comes down to whether it’s worth the risk & money to fix it.

 

[chris1515]

Software is a much harder nut to crack though. The intersection of people who know how to competently use software profiling tools and people who want to talk about it on YouTube is probably a big fat zero. It’s much easier to benchmark hardware.

We’re lucky this one dude on Twitter had extra time on his hands. I’m pretty sure developers know about these issues because they have access to the same profilers. It comes down to whether it’s worth the risk & money to fix it.

This is a Nvidia developer not a random guy. He made a patch for Arkham Knight too.

He has an interesting blog

Sherief, FYI

 

[function]

And here... we... go!

https://twitter.com/SheriefFYI

Between this and TLoU, I think it's time to re-evaluate just what it is that we consider a "God tier" developer.

In every business, and in every area of industry, organisations tend to move towards least effort for predicted acceptable returns. It's not so much capitalism as institutionalised rot.

Someone, at some point, must have known that the engineering was downright nasty but it paid to shut the fuck up and let the turd hit the market place.

 

[Shortbread]

PS4: 1600x900p/30fps (30~50fps with unlocked framerate)

PS4 Pro: 1920x1080p/30fps (30~60fps with unlocked framerate)

PS5:
- Quality Mode: 3200x1800p/30fps
- Performance Mode: 2560x1440p/60fps
- Balanced Mode: Dynamic 3200x1800p/30fps
- Ray-Tracing Mode: 2560x1440p/30fps
- HFR: 1920x1080p/~80fps

- This comparison is focused on the PS4/PS4 Pro versions. Comparison of the currentgen versions here: • Hogwarts Legacy |...
- PS4/PS4 Pro suffer from general downgrades in all settings as expected. However, the visual quality is acceptable.
- Drawing distance and lighting are the settings that affect the visual set-up the most, placing it at a lower quality than PS5's performance mode.
- PS4/PS4 Pro also remove some assets from the environment (vases, paintings and other furniture) to reduce the graphic load.
- PS4/PS4 Pro offer the possibility of unlocking the framerate, achieving up to 60fps indoors. Outdoors, the average does not exceed 45fps.
- PS4 Pro has trouble keeping the framerate locked outdoors.
- Loading times are undoubtedly the most negative point of the PS4 versions. 8 times slower than on PS5.
- These loading times also affect the menus and the exploration of the castle. Switching from one room to another can be really tedious. On PS4 this can cause problems in the face of textures or assets.
- As a personal recommendation, adding an SSD to PS4/PS4 Pro could considerably solve your problems with loading times.
- Avalanche Software has done their job and it looks like the months of delay for the Oldgen version of Hogwarts Legacy have been worth it. With assumable visual cutbacks and okay performance, the PS4 versions are enjoyable.

 

[DavidGraham]

Interesting comments regarding the decline in proprietary engines.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1654078095534567425

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1654082821047058432

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1654075162579570688

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1654088874354962433

 

[Inuhanyou]

Interesting comments regarding the decline in proprietary engines.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1654078095534567425

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1654082821047058432

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1654075162579570688

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1654088874354962433

This take is really dumb and shows how elitism and snobbishness even runs in the gaming dev circles. It's the realities of game development! You adapt your toolkit to what can churn out games faster. It's unviable for most teams to have their own engines due to the complexity of moden games. It's just a fact.

I have most sympathy with Alex and John's take on the situation, but these types of guys quickly dry it up.

"Every unreal engine game looks the same!" Am I back in 2009 or something? Guilty gear strive doesn't look a single bit like Tekken 7. Final fantasy 7 remake doesn't look a single bit like kingdom hearts.

And that's before we get to ue5 which has vastly more reach in graphical fidelity to create ones ideas.

Don't blame the tools, blame the artists.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm actually very surprised that a AAA budget Star Wars game released by EA, and by a respected game developer (Respawn) would have these kinds of mistakes. I know a lot of people are leaving game companies to go into research or to work at Nvidia or UE where they don't have to be tied into game crunch and release cycles, so maybe some of these big studios really are losing their technical expertise.

Employing anyone with a proper education should result in a higher level of competency than this. This points a finger at either eduction being useless, or recruitment being sub-par and accepting people who aren't up properly educated.

And I'm willing to think it's computer education that's lacking with it too high-level and people passing so long as they are able to write simple functional C/Python code with no real understanding of how it fits to realtime operations.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Employing anyone with a proper education should result in a higher level of competency than this. This points a finger at either eduction being useless, or recruitment being sub-par and accepting people who aren't up properly educated.

And I'm willing to think it's computer education that's lacking with it too high-level and people passing so long as they are able to write simple functional C/Python code with no real understanding of how it fits to realtime operations.

Let's let the javascript intern touch the render thread. There are definitely a lot of programmers that don't really understand how computers work at all, especially with so many coding bootcamps in the USA. I just wouldn't have expected that those people would end up in a role where they'd make critical decisions that would affect performance that way.

 

[neckthrough]

Employing anyone with a proper education should result in a higher level of competency than this. This points a finger at either eduction being useless, or recruitment being sub-par and accepting people who aren't up properly educated.

And I'm willing to think it's computer education that's lacking with it too high-level and people passing so long as they are able to write simple functional C/Python code with no real understanding of how it fits to realtime operations.

A degree in computer science isn't intended to make one an expert hacker. It's intended to impart the fundamental principles of what it takes to build the entire stack of a computer system from scratch, starting from transistors all the way up to programming systems. Building expertise to deftly manage the idiosyncrasies of contemporary shipping products (whether in hardware, OSs, networks or general software) is a valuable skill, but is often not an explicit objective of a CS degree. That said, many students (especially at higher-tier colleges) pick up those skills anyway, often out of personal interest. I would lay the blame on recruitment, mentoring and team management. You can't just hire a NCG and have them coding real-time mission-critical subsystems.

 

[mr magoo]

This take is really dumb and shows how elitism and snobbishness even runs in the gaming dev circles. It's the realities of game development! You adapt your toolkit to what can churn out games faster. It's unviable for most teams to have their own engines due to the complexity of moden games. It's just a fact.

I have most sympathy with Alex and John's take on the situation, but these types of guys quickly dry it up.

"Every unreal engine game looks the same!" Am I back in 2009 or something? Guilty gear strive doesn't look a single bit like Tekken 7. Final fantasy 7 remake doesn't look a single bit like kingdom hearts.

And that's before we get to ue5 which has vastly more reach in graphical fidelity to create ones ideas.

Don't blame the tools, blame the artists.

About game engines

“Is it better to have your own technology for making games, or should you license an engine?” is a question that I get asked now and then.

www.remedygames.com

Here is great take on the subject from people who develop own engine.

 

[Scott_Arm]

@neckthrough I don't even know that CS degrees generally teach people about the hardware anymore. I'm not sure they all have asm courses. Operating systems is usually optional. I think generally they're tailored to the markets, which means there's a much bigger focus on web focused technology, ai. If you study computer engineering you'd probably have a better grasp of the whole picture of computing.

 

[Scott_Arm]

@Inuhanyou I agree about UE visuals. There's no distinct "UE look" anymore. I've played so many UE games that look completely different. You don't know it's UE unless you see it on the splash screen.