PS4 Longevity

Could the PS4 actually outsell the PS2?

  • Yes!

    Votes: 14 31.1%
  • No!

    Votes: 15 33.3%
  • This generation will be shorter (6-7 years)

    Votes: 16 35.6%

  • Total voters
    45
I wonder how the recent hack in Brasil could affect future PS4 sales.

In reality, PS4 was not really hacked. They just use an Raspberry Pi to bypass system recognition and clone a PS4 content to another PS4. And any future install must be made on the original PS4 and then re-cloned (all of this payed to the hacker).
But regardless, Brasilians are already resorting to the method for piracy.
Hope Sony can block this before the exploit is improved!
 
The users of the GPUs and cards you are talking about are gonna be very very few in number, until well beyond 2019-2021 when Sony will be naturally looking to refresh their console cycle anyway. Just because a 10Tflop GPU exists, doesn't mean that any meaningful majority of gamers (read: sufficient in number to warrant game devement targeting their kit) will own one.

VR being only a single person experience, enclosed in it's own headset, is such that whatever extra bells and whilstles these 10Tflop GPU card rocking PC gaming niches are enjoying, the majority of mainstream gamers on consoles will be entirely oblivious to.

Additionally, given the current state of high end game development, with practically all titles being made with asset quality levels tailored to the largest market (i.e. consoles), there's little reason to believe that AAA VR game market will be any different. In which case it doesn't matter what new flavour of hextuple-SLI Giga-Terraflop Titan X(treme) GPU a small cross section of PC gamers will be sporting, as most VR games will continue to target the most common and lowest common denominator, i.e. consoles, mobile and low end PC HW.

If anything, mobile-based VR (ala GearVR) is far more likely to be the most dominant VR platform for the majority of people. It will almost certainly end up being the most lucrative for big game publishers; who can regularly shit out micro-transaction-riddled shovelware for maximum profits. In that light Morpheus on PS4 is gonna seem like a generational leap already to gamers who have come from mobile VR. VR on PC on the highest end HW is not really going to be relevant to the mainstream adoption of VR at all.

I really think that the business and economic realities get missed far too often in these discussions.

You say the numbers will be small. But a 290x is now only $300 and offers almost 5Tflops of performance but more than the 1.8tflops of the ps4. Its numbers are climbing and has been avalible since shortly after the ps4 launch. Post 390x launch the 290x should be cheaper than $300 and a user who has a 290x can then have 10tflops of performance. I also suspect that while the 390x will be expensive at around $600 when it launches by the time they transition to a smaller micron process I would wager the 10tflops number will cost $300 in a single card package .

Even on the mobile front its a speeding bullet of upgrades gear vr 2 is already much better than the first launch of it. You will run into a point where the screens are of higher quality than on the Morpheus quickly

Which is to my point the ps4 is a snapshot of 2013 hardware. The pc is going continue to out perform it by leaps and bounds that only get larger while mobile will be on a head long collision with the performance of the ps4. Then you have competitors who fell behind the ps4 who will want to take advantage of both sides of the equation.

A 1920x1080p Morpheus is 960x1080p per eye. Valve is already offering 1200x1080 before the launch of the Morpheus . Oculus may have better for a launch aligned with Morpheus. That's in 2015/16 . Move to 2018 say and 2 4k screens might be possible. Then you add that to a console that leverages a new micron drop (or maybe two) much more powerful cpus , brand new gpu designs and hbm2 and perhaps dirt cheap ssds and you then have the ps4 stuck in in a very weird spot.

If the BOM of Morpheus and of headsets in generation are static with little room to drop , you may end up with a $200 ps4 with a $200 head set vs a $400 console with a $200 much improved head set.
 
You say the numbers will be small. But a 290x is now only $300 and offers almost 5Tflops of performance but more than the 1.8tflops of the ps4. Its numbers are climbing and has been avalible since shortly after the ps4 launch. Post 390x launch the 290x should be cheaper than $300 and a user who has a 290x can then have 10tflops of performance. I also suspect that while the 390x will be expensive at around $600 when it launches by the time they transition to a smaller micron process I would wager the 10tflops number will cost $300 in a single card package .

Regardless of how much they cost, these cards at any price will sell at most in the hundreds of thousands to actual PC gamers (as opposed to enterprise or crytocurrency mining). No where near console levels, and even console sales will be dwarfed by VR-capable mobile device sales. So in terms of being a driver for VR adoption, PC is pretty irrelevant to the discussion (consoles will prob be too in the grand scheme of things), and the majority of the gaming consumer market will not even concern themselves with what is going on on that platform.

Even on the mobile front its a speeding bullet of upgrades gear vr 2 is already much better than the first launch of it. You will run into a point where the screens are of higher quality than on the Morpheus quickly

Again you're missing the point quite a bit. Screen quality will probably eclipse that of Morpheus, just as phone screen resolution is now much higher than the screens we watch TV on in our living room. That's all well and good, but the point is Morphues may be "good enough" for the mainstream consumer, who is the section of the market the bulk of development investment in games and software will be going towards catering to.

Morpheus will be able to spit out VR games at an order of magnitude higher visual fidelity and gameplay complexity than any mobile VR game, for the foreseeable future, or at least certainly until the natural successor of PS4 launches. So the point you're making here is moot. Mobile will never offer the same kind of VR gaming experience that Morpheus and PC will, and Morpheus may well outsell PC VR headsets by a significant margin (I certainly expect it too at least for gaming experiences).

With Facebook owning Occulus, I can see alot of non-gaming VR apps blowing up hugely on mid/low/end PCs and mobile, being much bigger than Morpheus. But then that won't in anyway affect PS4, Morpheus nor Sony's position on whether or not to wait out a natural console upgrade cycle. We are talking PS4 logevity after all.

Which is to my point the ps4 is a snapshot of 2013 hardware. The pc is going continue to out perform it by leaps and bounds that only get larger while mobile will be on a head long collision with the performance of the ps4. Then you have competitors who fell behind the ps4 who will want to take advantage of both sides of the equation.

Mobile will never reach a point where they outperform a PS4. They're just barely outperforming PS360's now, and even then gaming software at last-gen fidelity STILL isn't even a thing on mobile platforms! VR will be even worse.

Console competitors coming out with a new console, too early in the cycle, to try to out compete with Sony who has enjoyed 2+ years already of free, uncontested console VR monopoly, are going to see such a strategy crash and burn woefully, just like the OG Xbox and WiiU did.

From a Ninty/MS perspective, launching a new VR console in 2017 to compete with the PS4 is going to be suicide. By then PS4 will be the defacto dominant platform for VR on consoles, with all the awards for being first to market with their product, like having an already established software library for their box. By doing a mid-gen update Nin/MS will run the risk of

a) pissing off their existing userbase who will be upset that you just killed off their shiny new XB1 (more in the case of MS),
b) driving more gamers towards your oponent's platform as you start to divert dev resources to the new platform and gamers start feeling neglected by the lack of first party support (XB360 says hi),
c) launching a box that simply isn't enough of a technological leap forward that gamers feel it isn't worth the price of entry (OGXbox/WiiU says hi).

I honestly don't see MS sitting on their asses and letting Sony rule the console VR market as the sole player for the next two years. It would be beyond foolish.

A 1920x1080p Morpheus is 960x1080p per eye. Valve is already offering 1200x1080 before the launch of the Morpheus . Oculus may have better for a launch aligned with Morpheus. That's in 2015/16 . Move to 2018 say and 2 4k screens might be possible. Then you add that to a console that leverages a new micron drop (or maybe two) much more powerful cpus , brand new gpu designs and hbm2 and perhaps dirt cheap ssds and you then have the ps4 stuck in in a very weird spot.

No, what you will have in reality is a situation where Occulus/ValveVR compete with each other for the scraps of the miniscule high end PC gamer market. Sony making bank on consoles after already selling a metric crap tonne prior to Morpheus launching, they now begin a new VR gaming craze on the most accessible of the two platforms (console and PC), and enjoy a free lunch as MS scrambles in the background with Hololens trying desperately to convince us that it can actually do what the original concept videos showed... honest. Whilst your hypothetical new VR console gets released, after two years of PS4 Morpheus dominance, and is seen as "nothing new" and "mee too™" and "a stop-gap console", enjoying only meagre sales whilst the rest of the mainstream gaming industry waits for the PS5.

It would be MS/Ninty who would be in the weird place not Sony.

The launch of the OG Xbox against the PS2's success is a lesson that mid-gen/early HW updates are a risky proposition. MS certainly learned that the hard way.
 
Regardless of how much they cost, these cards at any price will sell at most in the hundreds of thousands to actual PC gamers (as opposed to enterprise or crytocurrency mining). No where near console levels, and even console sales will be dwarfed by VR-capable mobile device sales. So in terms of being a driver for VR adoption, PC is pretty irrelevant to the discussion (consoles will prob be too in the grand scheme of things), and the majority of the gaming consumer market will not even concern themselves with what is going on on that platform.

Except there is the whale mentality. There are people very willing to pay for $1500 titans or multiple $600 video cards. Yes its a minority but at the same time they will drive the cost down for the others and will be willing to support the software for it.

Cheap video cards will drop in price quickly. It also wont take long for low end laptops to catch up or surpass what the ps4 is capable of.

Out of the 200m or so people who are willing to buy a console a large portion are also extremely price sensitive. We saw the failure of the ps3 at $500/$600 and the xbox one at $500 Morpheus will have an additional cost over the ps4. We don't know what it is, but at $200-$400 for Morpheus your looking at a ps4 vr experience being $600-$800


Again you're missing the point quite a bit. Screen quality will probably eclipse that of Morpheus, just as phone screen resolution is now much higher than the screens we watch TV on in our living room. That's all well and good, but the point is Morphues may be "good enough" for the mainstream consumer, who is the section of the market the bulk of development investment in games and software will be going towards catering to.

But for the average consumer Morpheus and a ps4 may be good enough but its also more expensive and tethered. In the united states you can get a galaxy s6 for $200 plus $200 for the gear vr. That's the cost of the naked ps4 before a camera and Morpheus.

Morpheus is going to launch q1/2 of 2016 and by then the galaxy 7 will be launching which means you'd be able to get a galaxy s6 in the states for $100 with $200 for the gear vr bringing you to $300. Which is most likely what Morpheus itself will require. You can then get an s7 for $200 with the newest gear vr for $200.

At that lower entry price you also get a wireless experience .


Morpheus will be able to spit out VR games at an order of magnitude higher visual fidelity and gameplay complexity than any mobile VR game, for the foreseeable future, or at least certainly until the natural successor of PS4 launches. So the point you're making here is moot. Mobile will never offer the same kind of VR gaming experience that Morpheus and PC will, and Morpheus may well outsell PC VR headsets by a significant margin (I certainly expect it too at least for gaming experiences).

But like I said it will be sandwiched in between phones and consoles. Phones at least in some markets will be cheaper and most likely have higher quality screens. Morpheus will have a higher refresh rate and better looking games and then you have the pc which will have a leap again of graphical power and then better screens and perhaps a similar refresh rate.

Each year mobile hardware will chip away at the power of the ps4 while the screens get better. At some point the graphics will be near enough and the screens will be far enough away in quality and of course the convincence of not being tethered to a large box in your living room or bed room becomes enough that the ps4 is no longer an attractive experience for vr . I bet its way before the ps5 comes out

With Facebook owning Occulus, I can see alot of non-gaming VR apps blowing up hugely on mid/low/end PCs and mobile, being much bigger than Morpheus. But then that won't in anyway affect PS4, Morpheus nor Sony's position on whether or not to wait out a natural console upgrade cycle. We are talking PS4 logevity after all.
we are talking about the ps4 longevity and I think your wrong on that end. The phone side will provide a portable experience that will improve with each upgrade cycle you enter. So every 2 years people will be walking into new phones with better hardware and a better vr experience.

If a competitor jumps on a new console early and focuses on vr then Morpheus is dead in its tracks


Mobile will never reach a point where they outperform a PS4. They're just barely outperforming PS360's now, and even then gaming software at last-gen fidelity STILL isn't even a thing on mobile platforms! VR will be even worse.

That's more an issue of battery life , budget and controls. My year old note 3 should easily out perform a 360.

Console competitors coming out with a new console, too early in the cycle, to try to out compete with Sony who has enjoyed 2+ years already of free, uncontested console VR monopoly, are going to see such a strategy crash and burn woefully, just like the OG Xbox and WiiU did.

Or they could find success like the xbox 360.

From a Ninty/MS perspective, launching a new VR console in 2017 to compete with the PS4 is going to be suicide. By then PS4 will be the defacto dominant platform for VR on consoles, with all the awards for being first to market with their product, like having an already established software library for their box. By doing a mid-gen update Nin/MS will run the risk of

a) pissing off their existing userbase who will be upset that you just killed off their shiny new XB1 (more in the case of MS),
b) driving more gamers towards your oponent's platform as you start to divert dev resources to the new platform and gamers start feeling neglected by the lack of first party support (XB360 says hi),
c) launching a box that simply isn't enough of a technological leap forward that gamers feel it isn't worth the price of entry (OGXbox/WiiU says hi).

THe xbox 360 was launched 4 years after the xbox . It was a huge success for MS

A) if they stay with amd they can continue to easily support the xbox one and the similaritys between the one and ps4 will make sure it continues to get ports. There shouldn't be a reason why a $200 or less console couldn't existg next to a $400 console. The psone still sold extremely well into the life of the ps2

B] like I said above , support for the xbox one should be fine as its very similar to the ps4 a 2017/18 next box would be 4 to 5 holidays the xbox one would be the main console from ms , more than enough support

C) 2017 would allow for either 2nd gen 14nm parts or 1 gen 10nm parts , hbm 2 , ssd drives. 2017 could also mean on the head set side 4k screens

And don't forget that you assume sony would be the one in the dominate postion , however it could also just as likely put sony in the akward postion of being off the schedual. Sony could 2 years later release a ps5 but you'd be 2 years into a new console cycle and that 2 years on the market could easily cause the core to move on. The core doesn't mind faster moves and better tech

I honestly don't see MS sitting on their asses and letting Sony rule the console VR market as the sole player for the next two years. It would be beyond foolish.
I believe one of two things will happen at e3 for ms's vr front. 1) they have a gaming only hololens that ties into the xbox one or 2) they have a deal with facebook for oculus


No, what you will have in reality is a situation where Occulus/ValveVR compete with each other for the scraps of the miniscule high end PC gamer market. Sony making bank on consoles after already selling a metric crap tonne prior to Morpheus launching, they now begin a new VR gaming craze on the most accessible of the two platforms (console and PC), and enjoy a free lunch as MS scrambles in the background with Hololens trying desperately to convince us that it can actually do what the original concept videos showed... honest. Whilst your hypothetical new VR console gets released, after two years of PS4 Morpheus dominance, and is seen as "nothing new" and "mee too™" and "a stop-gap console", enjoying only meagre sales whilst the rest of the mainstream gaming industry waits for the PS5.
what you'll have is everyone and their grandma buying pc vr to use to surf vr facebook on pc while everyone looks at the amazing pc experiances for gaming and wonders why their ps4 can't do the same. You then have MS becoming the defacto company making wearables for the business world
It would be MS/Ninty who would be in the weird place not Sony.

The launch of the OG Xbox against the PS2's success is a lesson that mid-gen/early HW updates are a risky proposition. MS certainly learned that the hard way.

From a certain point of view. You could make the case that the OG xbox was a lesson that late more powerful hardware looses to weaker early hardware. The xbox 360 shows that early hw updates allows you to go forom selling 24m units to 80m units

If you really want to get into it. Look at Nintendo. The nes came out when everyone else failed. But Sega put out the genesis 18 months before the super nes. It allowed them to go from selling 13m consoles with the master system to 40m with the genesis. Nintendo went from 61.91m to 49.1m that generation. Then they waited on the n64 that came out roughly 18 months after the ps1 and sony out of no where went from 0 to 102m while Nintendo went from 49.1m super nes to 32.92m on the gamecube. Then Nintendo went second again by a year with the game cube and fell further behind to 21.74m while sony went up to 155m. MS entered in 2001 also and outsold the gamecube. Then it launched before sony and ended up in a dead heat with them.
 
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Uh... "everyone and their grandma" only have integrated graphics. Let alone a GPU that can push significantly more than 1080p/120Hz.

I want to see a 2017 MS launch, where vgleaks tell us everything next year, and February 2017 MS announce they fucked up so badly that they start over. This is not a good business decision.
 
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Things ebb and flow. This generation they both went with lower powered apu's but that doesn't mean next gen they have to do the same.

Honestly, to me this gen has showed that they never need bother with high end hardware ever again. The found the successful formula, simply starve console gamers by making a gen last excruciatingly long, then release "new" but low end hardware at $399 fueled mostly by remasters of old games for the first year or so and presto, console gamers will buy it in droves. I mean really, why ever bother going with high end lossy hardware ever again? This way they make profit on the hardware from day one and they can print money by selling the gamers remasters of old games which are zero risk and uber low cost to them. They may as well run that playbook all over again next gen.
 
Uh... "everyone and their grandma" only have integrated graphics. Let alone a GPU that can push significantly more than 1080p/120Hz.

I want to see a 2017 MS launch, where vgleaks tell us everything next year, and February 2017 MS announce they fucked up so badly that they start over. This is not a good business decision.

For surfing virtual facebook they wont need more , nor for youtube playback.

Also ms doesn't have to say anything of the sort , they can simply move to a two console approach where they have a low end (xbox one ) and high end

Honestly, to me this gen has showed that they never need bother with high end hardware ever again. The found the successful formula, simply starve console gamers by making a gen last excruciatingly long, then release "new" but low end hardware at $399 fueled mostly by remasters of old games for the first year or so and presto, console gamers will buy it in droves. I mean really, why ever bother going with high end lossy hardware ever again? This way they make profit on the hardware from day one and they can print money by selling the gamers remasters of old games which are zero risk and uber low cost to them. They may as well run that playbook all over again next gen.
Last gen all 3 enjoyed high sales. This gen one is sky rocketing , one has better sales in the same period as the previous hardware and one has completely tanked. I doubt anyone but sony will be c ontent with waiting 8 years for a console

This makes no sense, the mid-range PC GPUs coming out in 2012 were 10 times more powerful than the PS3, and the sales volume of PS3 didn't change.

Why is this PC versus Consoles discussion coming back over and over?
because this is about the ps4 longevity , it doesn't exist in a vacuum.
 
Personally speaking, the PS4 longevity has nothing to do with powerful PC components.

Consolites buy consoles for much more than just the amount of power they may or may not have. The games matter a hell of a lot more, the ecocystem and services too.

The reasons i have a PS4 is because i like Sony's game output generally, with a lot of Japanese focus as well as western focus, i like that variety and mix, and now with tons of indies as well, its a triangle.

I was a big 360 guy, and i owned OG Xbox too(until it broke earlier this year :( ), but MS's overly western approach this gen(among other issues) doesn't gel that good with me, and Nintendo has less than a handful of games i would want a year on Wii U, which made it very hard for me to justify owning the console(which is why i sold mine on top of not having a standardized controller, can't stand that tablet)
 
is there a way you can prove that statement ?

Sales data may provide evidence to support this claim. It's not like PS3 sales dried as more powerful PC's came out. And neither did 360's. Sales data of PS4 also suggests the main factor in declining PS3 hardware and software sales is the PS4 and not high end PC's.

As far as sales of Morpheus are concerned, I have a wait and see attitude. If Sony is able to release compelling content that offers a compelling VR experience then I see no reason why Morpheus can't at least some type of marginal success. If they aren't able to do so then I fear Morpheus may not fare well. Whether the hardware is adequate time will tell. Sony's main advantage with Morpheus is a growing PS4 userbase so if hey can't capitallize on that then that is one major screw up. I really hope they don't release hardware and not give me a reason to purchase it, game wise. That would be horrible.

I'm eager to try out different VR experiences. The beauty of a PC is I can continually upgrade the hardware and get the best out of it. I'll wait for reviews or my own hands on try before taking the plunge. But yeah I can see VR taking off on PC and possibly increasing the number of high end enthusiasts further down the line.
 
is there a way you can prove that statement ?
Not absolutely, as the absence of PC hardware may have resulted in more PS3 sales. However, the PS3 sales remained fairly constant despite more and more powerful PC components releasing.

Is there any way you can prove that PC components impacted sales of the last gen consoles as evidence that they'll do the same this gen, only faster because the consoles launched at a lower power point? It's not as though a drop in sales can even be attributed to competition in the PC space as there's any number of reasons sales of an old console would start to dwindle.
 
This makes no sense, the mid-range PC GPUs coming out in 2012 were 10 times more powerful than the PS3, and the sales volume of PS3 didn't change.

Why is this PC versus Consoles discussion coming back over and over?

As stated the consoles are not in a vacuum, also this isn't like last gen - people can already build a PS4 (power) like PC for around the same price, so what do you think things will be like in 2 years?

Also this shows PC sales are steadily rising whereas consoles have been more 'consistent';

http://hexus.net/gaming/news/pc/81292-pc-games-software-market-exceed-35bn-2018-says-oga/

Also, I didn't mean PCs literally, but in a couple years I expect 'steambox' style PCs to be a real option for gamers if the consoles are looking 'long in the tooth...it's a potential option if the exclusives dry up further. I'm not saying consoles are doomed I'm just saying these things might force Sonys hand.
 
Not absolutely, as the absence of PC hardware may have resulted in more PS3 sales. However, the PS3 sales remained fairly constant despite more and more powerful PC components releasing.

Couple of things.

Firstly the PS3 price was relatively low - this time round whilst PS4 isn't expensive PCs aren't either.
Secondly PCs are forever becoming easier to build/use and we're seeing steambox style boxes.

I'm just giving my opinion, of course a lot can happen in the next year years either way to change the way things end up.
 
The availability of 10 times or 20 times more powerful PCs didn't impact PS3 longevity. It won't impact PS4 longevity either.

I agree.

I think the failure of those arguing otherwise, lies in0. their seeming inability to see that price isn't the single defining factor involved in purchase of hardware to play video games.

For most consumers, even some of those with ample disposable income, the convenience and "plug-and-play" quality of a console means that a gaming PC will never even be a consideration in the choice of HW purchase for their gaming hobby.

If you can agree that the people who buy consoles do so because they want to play console games (as opposed to Mobas, MMOs, RTS and other traditionally popular PC game genres), then the only meaningful data to analyse that will give us any indication of PC gaming ability to affect console sales, is the financials of the big console game publishers; the same who control the majority share of the console gaming software market:

Code:
From the financials of EA:
 
Revenue share by platform over the last 3 years:
 
                         FY2015     FY2014       FY2013
Total Console            67%            56%             61%
(PS4/XB1/PS360/Wii/U)
Mobile                   11%            11%             11%
PC / Browser             19%            29%             24%
 
From the financials of Activision Blizzard:
 
Revenue share by platform over the last 3 years:
 
                           FY2014       FY2013       FY2012
Total Console              54%            56%            48%
(PS4/XB1/PS360/Wii/U)
PC                        14%             8%             15%
WoW                       22%            21%            22%
Mobile                    11%            15%            15%
 
From the financials of Ubisoft:
 
Sales (in units) share breakdown by platform over the last 2 years:
 
                           FY2014          FY2013
Total Console               83%             81%        
(PS4/XB1/PS360/Wii/U)
PC                          12%             15%
Mobile & Others              5%              4%

I think the numbers speak for themselves. There's essentially no real gain on the PC side over consoles in revenue generation for the 3 biggest game publishers of the AAA game industry, rather the converse in most cases. Even mobile revenues/sales seem to be either flat or dipping. So I can't see how VR will make much of a difference in that regard.

Ultimately which ever platform generates the most sales revenue for the game-makers, will be the one that gets the majority of the development investment. And so whoever gets the most dev dollars will get the most games.

Modern PC GPU prices can be whatever they like, as can the price of GearVR and a new mobile contract, but if those platforms don't get the dev support for the big tentpole VR games, then they simply won't matter for the majority of mainstream consumer looking to get into VR gaming.

Edit:
An additional note is that EA in FY2015 still made about a third of their revenue from PS3 and XB360 (down from 50% last FY). So the idea that the existence of more powerful HW available will kill a platform sales entirely is still fairly untrue. As much as HW shipments might have slowed for Gen 7 consoles in the major territories, software sales at least for EA are still strong.
 
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So you're cherry picking sales figures to backup your side of the argument vs my 'industry wide' figures that show PC software sales are growing and have now overtaken consoles?

I'm confused, please explain what is wrong with the data I provided.

Also, I never said price is the single most important thing, I stated the fact that PCs are becoming more user friendly and in will become even more so in the future.
 
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