A comparison of PS3 and 360 as media players

[joker454]

ETA of arrival, installation, and impressions?

Sept. 28 is the ship date, so a few days after that I guess. we'll see. I've got ~70 blu-rays ripped raw on raid to test out (each pruned to just the movie track, best audio track and chapter stops). The PC in the tv room plays them to perfection, at just 1 second to come out of sleep, 1 second to launch TMT3, and 2 seconds to launch right into the pristine blu-ray movie, no nag screens, trailers, fbi warnings, nothing. I can even make my own custom book marks for every single blu-ray with the same interface, and I don't have to fumble around picking the right audio track since it always plays the right one. I'm so happy with the PC hooked to the plasma, it's amazing and just works with everything.

So far nothing has been able to even come close to competing with PC, certainly not the consoles. But this c-200 looks like is has the potential to do so. If if does, then it'll replace the 360 Arcade in the bedroom and I won't need to do re-encodes anymore. I'm hopeful, since unlike Microsoft which wants to protect downloads, and Sony which wants to protect discs, the popcorn hour dudes don't have other interests to protect. So they might be able to pull it off after all. We'll see!

 

[Crono]

Tried PS3mediaserver for the first time yesterday and im very impressed! Things have come a long way since i last looked into media streaming. All my 1080 and 720p mkvs worked without a hitch.

PS3 and 360 both worked great using it. Only problem i had was 360 would only output 2ch sound, PS3 was outputing 5.1 AC3/DTS with the same settings. Is this a limitation with the 360 or with PS3mediaserver? Or have i just not set things up correctly?

As far as I know, the Xbox doesn't support 5.1.

@ Asher: use Mediainfo to check the details of those files. Or post your logs. It could be that the file is H.264 profile 5.1 which is incompatible with the PS3. Many TV shows use this. I believe you can use mkv2vob @ default settings to test whether the file needs transcoding or not.

WDTV is a standalone disconnected alternative to Popcorn Hour.

 

[ShadowRunner]

Sept. 28 is the ship date, so a few days after that I guess. we'll see. I've got ~70 blu-rays ripped raw on raid to test out (each pruned to just the movie track, best audio track and chapter stops). The PC in the tv room plays them to perfection, at just 1 second to come out of sleep, 1 second to launch TMT3, and 2 seconds to launch right into the pristine blu-ray movie, no nag screens, trailers, fbi warnings, nothing. I can even make my own custom book marks for every single blu-ray with the same interface, and I don't have to fumble around picking the right audio track since it always plays the right one. I'm so happy with the PC hooked to the plasma, it's amazing and just works with everything.

So far nothing has been able to even come close to competing with PC, certainly not the consoles. But this c-200 looks like is has the potential to do so. If if does, then it'll replace the 360 Arcade in the bedroom and I won't need to do re-encodes anymore. I'm hopeful, since unlike Microsoft which wants to protect downloads, and Sony which wants to protect discs, the popcorn hour dudes don't have other interests to protect. So they might be able to pull it off after all. We'll see!

Havent used a popcornhour but have some experience with the Western Digital Media player which is a similar device (i believe they use the same decoder chip?). They are pretty great just plug it in and everything works straight away. Out of around 80 media files of various types tested only 2 mkv files had issues, one with stuttering audio and the other had green block artefacts. With the popcornhour simply being a better piece of kit id expect these fringe cases be reduced even further. I think you will be more than happy with your purchase

 

[-tkf-]

With the popcornhour simply being a better piece of kit id expect these fringe cases be reduced even further. I think you will be more than happy with your purchase

The WDTV and Popcorn used to use the same chip, of course the C-200 (is it a new model?) may be using something never and better.

 

[joker454]

The WDTV and Popcorn used to use the same chip, of course the C-200 (is it a new model?) may be using something never and better.

Yup the c-200 is new, pre-orders started August 27. The site lists the older a-110 as using the SMP8635C chipset, whereas the c-200 uses the SMP8643. No clue what the difference is though spec wise. It's supported formats though include every format that has come up in this thread, so I figured I'd mention it as a plug and play low power alternative to the consoles. Assuming it works as advertised though...which I'll find out soon enough.

 

[Arwin]

Yup the c-200 is new, pre-orders started August 27. The site lists the older a-110 as using the SMP8635C chipset, whereas the c-200 uses the SMP8643. No clue what the difference is though spec wise. It's supported formats though include every format that has come up in this thread, so I figured I'd mention it as a plug and play low power alternative to the consoles. Assuming it works as advertised though...which I'll find out soon enough.

A colleague of mine bought a similar box ... I think these boxes can do pretty well generally, especially as they also seem to feature a pretty decent auto-codec update/install system. Considering your pretty extensive requirements I reckon it should suit you pretty well. For what I do (play mostly legal discs, and only very occasionally watch anything downloaded - typically only when it's not available in our region), it wouldn't be worth it but for you I'd say yes, definitely, you're going to like this box I think.

 

[patsu]

Yap, an all-in-one box like that is great if people are willing to pay for it.

As they gain market momentum, it may prompt someone to offer chargeable solutions on 360 and PS3. It'd be a full-time, dedicated job because the software will be updated regularly to keep pace with tech advancement and incompatible content in all the supported media format.

From the specs, it looks like the C200 only supports MS DRM schemes. I think other solutions also support DTCP-IP (supposedly from DVRs) and additional DRM platforms.

 

[joker454]

A colleague of mine bought a similar box ... I think these boxes can do pretty well generally, especially as they also seem to feature a pretty decent auto-codec update/install system. Considering your pretty extensive requirements I reckon it should suit you pretty well. For what I do (play mostly legal discs, and only very occasionally watch anything downloaded - typically only when it's not available in our region), it wouldn't be worth it but for you I'd say yes, definitely, you're going to like this box I think.

Yeah for sure, it depends on peoples needs. Mine are mostly painfully simple though, I just want to be able to watch my blu-rays around the house mostly. You'd think that would be easy for the consoles to support. I guess not though. It would also be nice to be able to play videos from friends and family. I suspect my mom won't understand how to put her videos in the correct codec profile, or even what a codec is for that matter, so all formats really just need to work if they want any hope of mass adoption. Still though, the political bullshit is just nauseating. The 360 isn't that great with h264, and the PS3 isn't that great with VC-1, it's just so tiresome sometimes.

As they gain market momentum, it may prompt someone to offer chargeable solutions on 360 and PS3

Hope so (for solutions, not the chargeable part), the console guys need some outside pressure, they are getting complacent.

 

[Mobius1aic]

I prefer the PS3, it's more open, and I can copy files directly onto it. But most of all I still greatly prefer my computers.

 

[patsu]

Yeah for sure, it depends on peoples needs. Mine are mostly painfully simple though, I just want to be able to watch my blu-rays around the house mostly. You'd think that would be easy for the consoles to support. I guess not though. It would also be nice to be able to play videos from friends and family. I suspect my mom won't understand how to put her videos in the correct codec profile, or even what a codec is for that matter, so all formats really just need to work if they want any hope of mass adoption. Still though, the political bullshit is just nauseating.

That need is far from simple. They are made complicated by the plethora of codecs, container formats and profile settings (device support). The industry has itself to blame partially.

The 360 isn't that great with h264, and the PS3 isn't that great with VC-1, it's just so tiresome sometimes.

I don't see why they are bad with H.264 and VC-1. Afterall, the same 2 codecs are in Blu-ray. The problems are multi-layered. From basic format ambiguity, network protocol differences, container features/extensions, implementation shortcuts to not-invented-here syndrome. I have seen companies and early open source software churning out bad movies as they learned/misinterpreted the specs too.

All these add up to a high development and support cost.

 

[joker454]

That need is far from simple. They are made complicated by the plethora of codecs, container formats and profile settings (device support). The industry has itself to blame partially.

Maybe, but then how do relatively small operations like the popcorn hour people (and others) manage to make it work with lesser hardware, but the big boys with their unlimited resources and better hardware (consoles) somehow fail at it, even though these same big boys were involved in designing these codecs and standards to begin with?

I don't see why they are bad with H.264 and VC-1. Afterall, the same 2 codecs are in Blu-ray.

That just makes it all the more frustrating. On Blu-ray/Hd-dvd the consoles can magically play both h264 and vc-1 with no problem. But try playing your own home made h264 videos on 360, or home made vc-1 videos on PS3, at specs lower than what the hd disc formats demand, and somehow they both stumble. I guess I just find it unacceptable that we're four years into this generation, yet video playback remains at the hobbyist level.

 

[patsu]

Maybe, but then how do relatively small operations like the popcorn hour people (and others) manage to make it work with lesser hardware, but the big boys with their unlimited resources and better hardware (consoles) somehow fail at it, even though these same big boys were involved in designing these codecs and standards to begin with?

They don't do it alone. They use chipsets and also existing code ? Even with these, I don't expect it to open all movies.

I have looked at the source of some of these media decoders. There are still many issues between different recorders and players. A friend is maintaining one. They range from various degree of syncing problems, unrecognized atom values, old assumptions, etc. This is especially challenging for transcoding (The transcoded files may playback badly even on pristine players).

That just makes it all the more frustrating. On Blu-ray/Hd-dvd the consoles can magically play both h264 and vc-1 with no problem. But try playing your own home made h264 videos on 360, or home made vc-1 videos on PS3, at specs lower than what the hd disc formats demand, and somehow they both stumble. I guess I just find it unacceptable that we're four years into this generation, yet video playback remains at the hobbyist level.

Because Blu-ray has much tighter enforcement. Random Internet content and codecs have no QA (or rather they have user QA). It is an open ended problem. These are not standalone software or content. Interoperability is a big part of it. Essentially for C200, you are paying the full price of a PS3 Slim/Xbox 360 Elite to get someone to handle the crap.

 

[RobertR1]

That just makes it all the more frustrating. On Blu-ray/Hd-dvd the consoles can magically play both h264 and vc-1 with no problem. But try playing your own home made h264 videos on 360, or home made vc-1 videos on PS3, at specs lower than what the hd disc formats demand, and somehow they both stumble. I guess I just find it unacceptable that we're four years into this generation, yet video playback remains at the hobbyist level.

If I recall properly, MS was using Xenos for AVC HD decoding in the 360. Chances are, that code was only used for HD DVD playback and does not work for what you're doing.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Because Blu-ray has much tighter enforcement. Random Internet content and codecs have no QA (or rather they have user QA).

Which to me identifies a fault in the CODECs themselves. Why do they need so many variables and features to screw around with players?! What's wrong with a far simpler format that works?* MP3 works, because it's a clear standard. JPEG works. USB works. VHS worked. DVD worked. VGA cables worked. But these days everything's stupid. Even something as simple as wiring your device to your TV has gone wonky. HDMI cables can sometimes not work! Video playback can sometimes not work. Audio through your lovely new amp can sometimes not work. And all because people are large are incapable of sitting down and drawing up a protocol or three, and adhering to it, that'll work for everyone and make our lives as consumers as easy as it should be.



*I wonder if this is the ultimate antipiracy measure - a spaghetti mess of settings and options that makes playback of pirated media such a nightmare everyone would rather buy the original? :megreem:

 

[Asher]

As far as I know, the Xbox doesn't support 5.1.

@ Asher: use Mediainfo to check the details of those files. Or post your logs. It could be that the file is H.264 profile 5.1 which is incompatible with the PS3. Many TV shows use this. I believe you can use mkv2vob @ default settings to test whether the file needs transcoding or not.

WDTV is a standalone disconnected alternative to Popcorn Hour.

Thanks for the app recommendation, it's pretty cool.

The files in question are, indeed, AVC 5.1 (I think).

AVC (Container profile=Unknown 5.1) (High@L5.1)(CABAC / 8 ref frames)

Audio:
384Kbps, 48 KHz, 6 channels, AC-3

What is AVC 5.1 and why doesn't the PS3 support it if Sony's all big on h264? I see here it's the highest level of the AVC profiles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC

What does the PS3 support?

 

[patsu]

That's the problem right there... the movie is level 5.1. PS3 only supports up to high profile level 4 (or 4.1, I can't remember). [EDIT: It's 4.1 according to the net]

It's a design choice (based on resource usage). Level 5.1 allows even higher bandwidth and takes more resources to decode (e.g., 4k x 2k @ 30fps). The C-200 product that joker454 posted will not play it too.

C200 spec:

MP@L4.0, HP@L4.0, HP@L4.1

Sometimes. the person who encoded the movie over-specified his needs (L5.1 can also do 1080p @ 120fps). I suppose you can use the tool Crono mentioned to see if the movie can be converted to HP level 4.1.

 

[joker454]

*I wonder if this is the ultimate antipiracy measure - a spaghetti mess of settings and options that makes playback of pirated media such a nightmare everyone would rather buy the original? :megreem:

Sometimes I think that's the case because the whole situation is too ridiculous to be accidental. But it's colossally irritating to guys like me that legally buy all their movies, especially when even standard codecs won't work right. My blu-ray dumps for example are untouched, the m2ts files on the raid drive are identical to the files on the disc. Same codec, same spec, same everything because they were not re-encoded, they were just copied to the raid drive. I even keep the blu-ray file structure intact, all I do is remove the extras to save some space, so just ~20gb or so needed per movie. TMT3 on PC recognizes them and plays them perfectly, complete with menu's (where I kept them) and chapter stops. And it should, because they are untouched standard blu-rays! The PS3 though will not recognize the file structure as a blu-ray at all, and it won't even play the m2ts files correctly (issues like sometimes no audio, no video, video stuttering, etc). So it will support the file on optical disc, but will not support the identical file anywhere else. That limitation has to be done on purpose because I know the file is supported by the hardware. Realistically speaking I don't expect that limitation to ever be lifted because they need to protect their disc sales, so I had to look elsewhere for a solution.

 

[patsu]

All these containers, codecs, profiles, levels, and other mumbo-jumbos are industry concepts and artifacts. They are not meant for consumer consumption. Now they are being exposed to consumers/prosumers with little hand holding.

As for your Blu-ray rip issue, did you use the same tool to check its stats ? May be it's Level 5.1 too ? If so, your new C200 won't be able to play them also.

 

[joker454]

As for your Blu-ray rip issue, did you use the same tool to check its stats ? May be it's Level 5.1 too ? If so, your new C200 won't be able to play them also.

They are the same spec as whatever they are on blu-ray disc since it's the same files. I don't have any tool to check a files specs, but from what I'm reading on the web it's supposed to be "L4.1" for blu-ray.

 

[Neb]

Sometimes I think that's the case because the whole situation is too ridiculous to be accidental. But it's colossally irritating to guys like me that legally buy all their movies, especially when even standard codecs won't work right. My blu-ray dumps for example are untouched, the m2ts files on the raid drive are identical to the files on the disc. Same codec, same spec, same everything because they were not re-encoded, they were just copied to the raid drive. I even keep the blu-ray file structure intact, all I do is remove the extras to save some space, so just ~20gb or so needed per movie. TMT3 on PC recognizes them and plays them perfectly, complete with menu's (where I kept them) and chapter stops. And it should, because they are untouched standard blu-rays! The PS3 though will not recognize the file structure as a blu-ray at all, and it won't even play the m2ts files correctly (issues like sometimes no audio, no video, video stuttering, etc). So it will support the file on optical disc, but will not support the identical file anywhere else. That limitation has to be done on purpose because I know the file is supported by the hardware. Realistically speaking I don't expect that limitation to ever be lifted because they need to protect their disc sales, so I had to look elsewhere for a solution.

Just use your Avivo, PureVideo or some good codec software with a decent dual-core. Pair up with an X-Fi Gamer (60$) or better and you have the best audiovisual IQ, I kid you not. And play any movie you want.