*Game Development Issues*

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Not on 360.

UE3 for X360 has had just as much time as KZ2's engine for PS3 and secondly moving from PC to X360 has never been one of the gorilla in room sort of problems. UE3 was seen in the wild in early 2004 IIRC showcasing what would later become Gears of War for the X360.

Not that it matters. Comparing engines is silly since they are usually tailored to the specific needs a studio has and even more so on a title by title basis when you get right down to it.
 
UE3 for X360 has had just as much time as KZ2's engine for PS3 and secondly moving from PC to X360 has never been one of the gorilla in room sort of problems. UE3 was seen in the wild in early 2004 IIRC showcasing what would later become Gears of War for the X360.

Not that it matters. Comparing engines is silly since they are usually tailored to the specific needs a studio has and even more so on a title by title basis when you get right down to it.


Actually, if you trace the lineage of the Killzone engine back... it was also ported to the XBox (original) and was used to drive a very mediocre game called "Nam: Shell Shocked" or something like that.

It seems that the Killzone engine was originally meant for multiplatform use... and if the latest generation engine has any borrowed architectural structures, it would imply that it would have vestiges of this.

I know of very little "green field" type development that doesn't actually borrow existing components to speed things up. Why recreate the wheel all the time?
 
It seems that the Killzone engine was originally meant for multiplatform use... and if the latest generation engine has any borrowed architectural structures, it would imply that it would have vestiges of this.
This topic is turning all shades of wierd. Because the KZ engine written for PS2 was ported to XB (how do you know it was the same engine BTW?), that makes it a cross-platform engine by design, and because KZ2 is a sequel, it is a development of that same engine, ergo is a cross-platform engine... :???: :oops:

How's about we move on from the comparisons of first-party, exclusive engines to multiplatform engines, and return to just the matter of writing games for more than one console at a time? You know, like the thread title suggests? :p
 
Oblivion ran better because of allmost a year extra development time, not because of PS3 hardware, Bethesda had a year to tweak the game to run well on the PS3.
Often this is thrown around, but how do you (or anyone other than Bethesda) know they spent a whole year of extra dev time on it?

Maybe the entire year was spent just getting it to run, maybe they only spent 6 months of the year actually porting the game.

Just because there was a year in between doesn't mean that's "extra dev time".
 
Often this is thrown around, but how do you (or anyone other than Bethesda) know they spent a whole year of extra dev time on it?

Maybe the entire year was spent just getting it to run, maybe they only spent 6 months of the year actually porting the game.

Just because there was a year in between doesn't mean that's "extra dev time".

Although it's just a Wiki entry, there are referenced articles that indicate there was more development time. The fact that some of the same improvements were patched into the 360 seems to also imply this. Obviously, some changes are harder to implement as patches or just too risky in terms of regression risk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=12164267

As for the Killzone/PS2/Xbox->Killzone 2 engine progression. It is purely conjecture that I associate any history between the two engines, but a google search on "killzone guerilla games ps2 xbox shell shock" brings up some more references from gaming websites and wikipedia.
 
I made some interesing discovery in BIA HH

These shots are from the demos, I was just checking to see which version I should get.


http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/DSC03007.JPG

http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/DSC03006.JPG

And guess what?

The second shot is from the 360 version of the game

No, this is not because the texture hasn't loaded yet, but rather something to do with the LOD work.

http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/DSC03005.JPG

http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/DSC03004.JPG

This is what they look upclose, basically the same quality texture.

It seems as the 360 has just shorter LOD for the texture quality.

This may be due to DVD's slower streaming speed, or could be just a glitch
 
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God. Could you please get back to the subject of this thread? Killzone is not multiplatform, neither is GoW. Stop, please...
 
I am going to fix the problem by flashing the 360 drive, and making backups of my discs. I paid MS more than enough. Never again will i put an original game in the drive.
In Holland, MS is still denying the disc scratch problem. They told me on the phone that the culprit of the disc scratching was my subwoofer, lol.



Back on topic: Your points seem valid. I used UE3 because a lot of people claim that these games are the best looking games on the system. I understand the better tools. And you cannot expect devs to be as good as say criterion or the previous bethesda.

I still think EA did a great job however, aside from some lighting implementation and some bump mapped surfaces, the games looks identical and it plays very smooth also.

Logic has seemed to go out the way side and has been replaced with emotion here. You do know that hacking your system to play back ups is illegal and your system will be bricked for doing so at some point. We are 3 weeks away from the ability to install to the hardrive so it seems like your going to take a large risk for no reason at all.


UE3 is a great engine , but its not an engine designed from the ground up for the 360 platform. The kz2 engine on the other hand is and its made with all the strengths and weakness of the ps3 in mind from the onset and didn't find its roots as a PC engine and then a multiplatform engine.

I think alll the nit picking in this forum over slight graphical changes is pretty dumb. I can understand truely game changing graphical diffrences like some early multiplatform games showed and some still do like dropping frame rates. Those are what shoudl be discussed not zooming in on screen shots for things that no one will see in normal game play.
 
I think alll the nit picking in this forum over slight graphical changes is pretty dumb. I can understand truely game changing graphical diffrences like some early multiplatform games showed and some still do like dropping frame rates. Those are what shoudl be discussed not zooming in on screen shots for things that no one will see in normal game play.

I think you miss the point. Believe it or not, this isn't a "which version is better" thread.

The graphical differences (however slight) between versions allow us to start discussing what might be going on behind the scenes in the different versions to create the same (or similar) effects. There is a reason for every difference, after all. Sure, some might be just forgetting something here or there, or an honest mistake, but most of the time a graphical difference in some area between versions comes down to the difficulty in getting a game running equivalently on two different architectures with different strengths and weaknesses.

Or to phrase it another way, most graphical differences are a window on the underlying "multiplatform development issues" ;)
 
What catisfit said. We nitpick because it tells us about the differences between the machines which interst us from an architecture standpoint. I've found it quite fascinating seeing Xenon+Xenos pitched against Cell+RSX, with the different design choices, implementations, and the results. These tiny little details tells us about RAM decisions, OS decisions, impact they have on titles. It's all intelligent stuff, and not just us whinging about developers not doing a good job!

I can understand people not appreciating the discussion in the same way, but it's not a bad discussion, and if it's not your thing then you don't have to read the thread ;)
 
UE3 for X360 has had just as much time as KZ2's engine for PS3 and secondly moving from PC to X360 has never been one of the gorilla in room sort of problems. .

Just because porting from PC to X360 is easy, doesn't mean its effective.

Further, UE3 is still a multiplatform engine, it does not support alot of stuff that the X360 can do, like tiling.

One engine is build and designed around the PS3, the other is a multiplatform engine, that doesn't really take advantage of any of the platforms strenghts.
 
Mmm ni, Microsoft 'has built' the 360 hardware around Epic's engine.

Lol, im not going to dignify that with a proper answer.

Unified memory(UMA architecture) and boost from 256 to 512 Mb are Epic request. ;)

The ram was indeed increased by epic's request, it has nothing to do with their engine thought. It was increased because epic said that with 256mb we cannot make the game we want.
 
Mmm ni, Microsoft 'has built' the 360 hardware around Epic's engine.
Unified memory(UMA architecture) and boost from 256 to 512 Mb are Epic request. ;)

I think it is quite obvious that due to Gears of War the 360 had better support in UE3 for some time. I read that Epic actually shipped example code from Gears of War with the SDKs. PS3 support wasn´t really good before UT3 shipped last year and Epic got plenty of help from Sonys engineers to get it out of the door. Conclusion: The PS3 did not have as strong support as the 360 in the UE3 from the start maybe it still doesn´t? MS has surely poured plenty of money to get exclusive rights to Gears of War 1 and 2 and some of that money have probably helped get som extra tuning of UE3 for the 360.
Not saying that Sony didn´t do that to get some time exclusive rights for UT3, maybe Sony and Epic have more common projects in the works I that don´t know about. Maybe someone else can fill me in?
 
I think it is quite obvious that due to Gears of War the 360 had better support in UE3 for some time. I read that Epic actually shipped example code from Gears of War with the SDKs. PS3 support wasn´t really good before UT3 shipped last year and Epic got plenty of help from Sonys engineers to get it out of the door. Conclusion: The PS3 did not have as strong support as the 360 in the UE3 from the start maybe it still doesn´t?

Supposedly, the reason The Last Remnant is coming out first for 360 is because it's just easier to get a UE3 game working on the 360. Of course, this would force you to believe the devs over money-hat conspiracy theories.
 
Just because porting from PC to X360 is easy, doesn't mean its effective.

Further, UE3 is still a multiplatform engine, it does not support alot of stuff that the X360 can do, like tiling.

One engine is build and designed around the PS3, the other is a multiplatform engine, that doesn't really take advantage of any of the platforms strenghts.

This is off topic but just because tiling isn't supported doesn't mean UE3 isn't tuned quite well to the X360 and just because it is tuned to the X360 doesn't mean it isn't tuned to the PS3 although real world results ( lawsuits, though I find that an unsavory avenue of complaint, and secondly there was once a need for Sony ninja to come in and get UE3 running decently ) suggest in the case of UE3 this is case.

My point was only that the there has been the same amount of time to work UE3 for X360 as there has been for KZ2 for PS3. I never really intended to be in a serious discussion about well...the obvious...but here goes.

1. Engines are made to meet your needs; your needs are not made to meet your engine
2. Comparing engines is silly when different studios have different needs.
3. Good multi-plat engines are not good because the do everything well but instead they cover common needs well; this does not preclude them from doing everything well though
4. What needs an mulitplatform engine doesn't address a studio must address on its own if they have them.

That said I feel there is truth in saying UE3 is tuned to work quite well with the X360 given the platform'ss premiere franchise has seen two installments with it. If one doesn't recognize this I can only attribute it to reticence. This is not an indictment or something. It's a testament to craft...the more you work with something the better you get with it, unless you've hit the limit of your understanding and ability. Sorry but I don't wish to insult Epic by saying either of those things have happened. If and when Epic decides to invest in a big time exclusive franchise for the PS3 I'll merit them with being up to the task further improving their prowess with the platform after doing so as well just as I have done with the X360. It won't be an indictment then either but a recognition of the fruits of their labor.

There's nothing wrong with saying the Engine has improved for X360. And another thing a multi-platform engine is by no means destined to be out gunned by an exclusive engine. How an engine performs is still a factor of initiative, time, skill, effort and funding. You got more the fore mentioned and you've got the advantage and will on whole produce better results.

Being multiplatform doesn't doom anyone to mediocrity in the face of exclusive efforts...as we have actually seen this generation and every one previous. It does you no favors either as we have also seen.

My points are these. I don't think you get a pass or accolades whether your are exclusive or multiplatform in how your engine performs. You simply have a job to do and you do it well or you don't. I don't see the decision to be exclusive or multiplatfrom as reason to make exceptions in that regard so I don't.

I mean really...is being multiplatform a reason we should somehow pity Epic when at the same time they have secured lauded praise ( in the form of gamers dollars and licenses a plenty oh my! ) for their efforts? NO! It's immaterial. They've done a good job and that's that.

If you've had X number of years to get the job done whether you are multiplatform or not I'm only concerned with did you get the job done and how welll you did it. That was the basis of my comment but in the same post I said these engine comparisons are silly to begin with because what is being measured is not and cannot be congruent when you have two separate engines running two separate games. I was trying to say it wasn't relevant to this discussion even though I commented on a tangential point. Unless we are talking about the same engine we really can't compare multiplatform issues. I think its rather silly we keep attempting to do the exact opposite some how.

The only reason multiplatform is relevant is in how it affects getting the job done and this thread is meant to discuss the issues to that end not whether a studio should be held to a greater or lesser standard for being exclusive or multiplatform so I can say that also had something to do with my short response to Alstrong. I feel too much of this is going on in general but it especially frustrating in the context of this discussion when the opportunity was and is still here to talk about something a whole lot more worth while and on balance honorable.

Okay I've bantered off topic enough now so I'll cease in my hypocrisy and hope we can get back to the real topic at hand now.
 
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That said I feel there is truth in saying UE3 is tuned to work quite well with the X360 given platforms premiere franchise has seen two installments with it.

Oh i dont disagree that UE3 currently probably is very well tuned for the X360, the statement about Microsoft building the X360 hardware around that engine is complete and utter bs thought.
 
The ram was indeed increased by epic's request, it has nothing to do with their engine thought. It was increased because epic said that with 256mb we cannot make the game we want.

I'd bet large sums of money that Epic weren't the only people telling MS they wanted more RAM, too. I'm sure they had one of the loudest voices though.
 
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