"Yes, but how many polygons?" An artist blog entry with interesting numbers

[deepbrown]

Yeah, 80 thousand is insane. I could see that number say for instance in the first teaser video that popped when the game was announced - Drake did look insanely detailed and it lead to a lot of speculation whether or not that was realtime recorded or touched up.

Okay, just looked at the video where he mentioned that (it was showing a cutscene) so it's probably cutscenes only since they're recorded. I know they say it's 'all in game engine and just recorded' but even in the first Uncharted there were some things that were a bit different between realtime and cutscenes.

The models (polygon wise) are the same in-game and in cutscenes in the first game. There were differences in lighting and shadows for cutscenes. Not sure what the differences are here...but I'd still say the models are exactly the same.

Edit: I think I might be able to prove that with these shots I've taken from the multiplayer. I don't believe the textures on skin is as high-res as in cutscenes, but still the models look the same IMO.

Would be quite impressive for Drake's multiplayer model to be the same 30k plus model as in the SP game - considering there can be up to 5 Drake's on screen at the same time.

 

[ultragpu]

Do you think we'll hit a diminish in return for a human character in plain T-shirt and jeans for anything 30k+? How big of a difference would you say a 30k Drake vs a 80k Drake will result? In any case a 30k Drake is perfectly fine for me but if it turns out to be 80k then it will be kinda unnecessary.

 

[Weaste]

The metrics can be arbitrary - Capcom may be counting all mesh data being juggled vs NaughtyDog counting only visible geometry, or any number of other factors. And ofcourse not all polys are necessarily created equal - 1.2 million polys/frame can be just as taxing as four million/frame under the right circumstances.

The way I took it, he was talking about how many polygons per frame were being sent to RSX after Cell had processed the scene, not how many polygons were actually in the scene itself at any one time. 1.2 polygons per pixel or there abouts.

 

[nightshade]

I came here to ask for an estimation on the avg polycount of FNR4 characters as they look fairly smooth to me coupled up with the muscle flex & big characters the number should be quite high. But this is some hot discussion going on...I think I have to wait till its over.

 

[StefanS]

Triple Mod action, FTW (Senior Members and above will get that one ) ...

Anyway, I will just say it for the sake of it being said, we don't like it when respected members get attacked via ad hominem, especially if they have proven time and time again that they do know what they are talking about.

It's simple a matter of signal to noise ratio. We at Beyond3d proud ourselves in the fact that a lot of the talent in the industry chooses to discuss their professional knowledge and opinion freely with everyone (well not completely freely there's NDAs after all ). Contributing here doesn't require reverence, but it requires a certain level of politeness and civil behaviour. Calling other people credentials into question is not conducive to a reasonable discussion.

 

[Karamazov]

80k poly for main characters means only 2.4millions poly/s for one character, there is plenty of room for the rest of the other characters and background during gameplay, so why is it hard to believe ? If games likes RE5 can push 120 millions poly/s, uncharted 2 can at least do the same without any problem.

 

[Dr. Nick]

80k poly for main characters means only 2.4millions poly/s for one character, there is plenty of room for the rest of the other characters and background during gameplay, so why is it hard to believe ? If games likes RE5 can push 120 millions poly/s, uncharted 2 can at least do the same without any problem.

This is what it says about a game that has some of the best character models this gen.

RE5 pushes 3~5 million polys per frame which includes shadow maps & other not visible stuffs. The actual visible geometry on screen is around 500,000.

The main characters are composed of 15,000 polys, and in cut scenes higher quality versions are being used, made of 20,000 polys with 4000 on head alone.

The enemy characters are made of 4000 polys with 2 LOD levels that are 2000 polys (mid range) & 500 polys (far away)

When you look at the models in the library they look extremely impressive. Most of the time it's hard to see the edges but when the lights hit the models in a certain way you can tell that they are somewhat lower than one would think.

 

[Karamazov]

When they say 15000 polys, I wonder if it includes the equipment the characters are wearing.
Sure Drake may not look 4x times more detailed than chris redfield, they must use more polys for other details like the fingers etc...

another subject, anyone knows how many polys is pushing DIRT 2 ?

 

[betan]

80k poly for main characters means only 2.4millions poly/s for one character, there is plenty of room for the rest of the other characters and background during gameplay, so why is it hard to believe ? If games likes RE5 can push 120 millions poly/s, uncharted 2 can at least do the same without any problem.

Character polygons are processed multiple times for various reasons, but for me, the problem with 80k figure is not that it's not doable, it's just not necessary.

Of course Drake is a regular dude with hair and fabric clothes as opposed to bald muscle with armor, in that the fact that ingame melee close up Drake doesn't reveal much poly edges (unlike many cutscene characters in other games) should be impressive one would think.

On the other hand, the character poly count from Cod2 to CoD4 went down significantly, yet Cod4 has visibly better models. Thus I wouldn't consider 80k character models impressive, at least from artistry point of view.

 

[Karamazov]

Is the muscle flex seen in fight night round 4 the result of high polygon details or just a texture work ? (Or both)
It looks really great.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

I haven't seen FN 4 but I've heard that it's using normal map blending for the muscle stuff.
Same as Uncharted 1, where it's been used on Drake's shirt and on his face as well to make small wrinkles.

http://www.naughtydog.com/docs/Naughty-Dog-GDC08-Mudbox.pdf

Added bonus in the above doc for those interested: wireframe shots of Drake's face.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Do you think we'll hit a diminish in return for a human character in plain T-shirt and jeans for anything 30k+? How big of a difference would you say a 30k Drake vs a 80k Drake will result?

Yeah, there certainly is a point, at least in realtime applications...
- too many small polygons ruin the GPU's efficiency (remember: 4 fragments per quad per clock are only true if they belong to the same triangle)
- limited antialiasing means you can't see silhouette edges well
- normal maps are already used for shading detail
- having less polygons can actually help with skinning, just look at that horrible Alyx in the HL2 cinematic mod, it looks like it's a rubber doll at the elbows and fingers

Then again it's always a welcome thing to get rid of jagged silhouettes on curved body parts and stuff like the belts, necklaces and so on. Everyday people can be deceivingly complex, with all the accessories and stuff, especially if you want to model everything instead of just using normal maps.

 

[ultragpu]

Yeah, there certainly is a point, at least in realtime applications...
- too many small polygons ruin the GPU's efficiency (remember: 4 fragments per quad per clock are only true if they belong to the same triangle)
- limited antialiasing means you can't see silhouette edges well
- normal maps are already used for shading detail
- having less polygons can actually help with skinning, just look at that horrible Alyx in the HL2 cinematic mod, it looks like it's a rubber doll at the elbows and fingers

Then again it's always a welcome thing to get rid of jagged silhouettes on curved body parts and stuff like the belts, necklaces and so on. Everyday people can be deceivingly complex, with all the accessories and stuff, especially if you want to model everything instead of just using normal maps.

Interesting indeed, I guess it's down to how smart you distribute the polygon budget in the end.

 

[Neb]

Pdf document about first Uncharted shows Drakes body with clothes and attachements/adornments together is 26584 polygons full LOD (page 43). That is the complete Drake character minus weapon.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

That's not necessarily the highest LOD or the final version, and more importantly it's still an UC1 version of the character.
Actually, are there multiple outfits for Drake in UC1? We know there are in the sequel...

 

[Prophecy2k]

That's not necessarily the highest LOD or the final version, and more importantly it's still an UC1 version of the character.
Actually, are there multiple outfits for Drake in UC1? We know there are in the sequel...

Apart from his scuba gear in the very first scene, Drake stays in the same outfit for the rest of the game... (unless you count doughnut Drake )

 

[nightshade]

There are two outfits for Drake if you count the wetsuit he wears during the very first.

 

[Neb]

That's not necessarily the highest LOD or the final version, and more importantly it's still an UC1 version of the character.
Actually, are there multiple outfits for Drake in UC1? We know there are in the sequel...

Goes inline with "Diamants" (ND dev on B3D) comment about 25-30k guesstimated. But the mesh seems almost dramatically "simpler" to the CM10 Alyx/"Candy" mesh. Maybe I should check the models poly count as I just based it on some old CM version where it was 40-50k depending on outfit.

EDIT: Umm 101205 polys single pass... I disabled shadows so that it wouldn't affect values although I explicit set only meshes. Even Kleiner sports 48k, surprised.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Goes inline with "Diamants" (ND dev on B3D) comment about 25-30k guesstimated.

That's how it should be, as he's the author of this presentation and the modeler who created the character, too

But the mesh seems almost dramatically "simpler" to the CM10 Alyx/"Candy" mesh. Maybe I should check the models poly count as I just based it on some old CM version where it was 40-50k depending on outfit.

Ugh, it's almost painful to look at that character model...

Anyway, it just goes to show what difference it makes to be a skilled and experienced artist. And maybe have some good taste on top of it

(Okay, Chloe in UC2 has a way too perfect ass, but

Spoiler

it really looks like she's gonna betray Drake in some selfish move and so he ends up with the less perfect but more charming blonde girl again...

so it's kinda okay... female characters are always a tough job in this industry...)

 

[Neb]

Ugh, it's almost painful to look at that character model...

(Okay, Chloe in UC2 has a way too perfect ass, but

Spoiler

it really looks like she's gonna betray Drake in some selfish move and so he ends up with the less perfect but more charming blonde girl again...

so it's kinda okay... female characters are always a tough job in this industry...)

Umm well perhaps the FOV but yeah alteast for a one man team that is quite good aint it? But it sure was a surprise seeing those numbers. looking at the mesh one (or I) would think it was less. And it even has 130k model. And I sure dont whant to count em manually.

But makes me doubt many polygon claims as if this is 80-130k and clothes are attached meshes having a fully modeled body underneath in contrast to other games characters where the clothes are modeled into the body mesh saving lots of polygons.



Btw I might add the numbers for TF2 for this thread if it isn't done already. And if I pick up L4D 2 I might add those numbers as there was some talk based on the highly detailed characters in this thread IIRC. :smile: