I'm curious about this, how will they do it? If they do it with software, wouldn't some uber warez kid be able to break the lock? I wouldn't mind that happening, the more things I could do with my machine the better naturally, but it would open quite a few doors which Sony probably doesn't like being open.
YDL v5.0 confirmed for PS3; arriving mid November
- Thread starter Titanio
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I'm curious about this, how will they do it? If they do it with software, wouldn't some uber warez kid be able to break the lock? I wouldn't mind that happening, the more things I could do with my machine the better naturally, but it would open quite a few doors which Sony probably doesn't like being open.
Nope, that's definitely not the way it's going to work. Much more likely is that you can only read DVD discs initially. But even then it's probably not necessary as with Linux running in Hypervisor mode they can lock certain things down from the firmware if necessary.
Eventually though you'll probably be able to attach DVD and BD burners over the USB 2.0 port or something similar. Hypervisor mode and BD-ROM protection is going to be the most important line of defense probably.
I'm curious too, but this is my issue.
If they want the PS3 to double as a personal computer (which it would have the capability of doing with Yellow Dog) then how would you input data into the PS3? It's pretty useless if you cannot load software onto it. Would you be required to input data via USB? Would you have to download every application via the internet? Or would you have have to put the data on a memory card and load it that way?
It just does not make sense to me that they would allow the PS3 to double as a personal computer with a FULLY FUNCTIONAL OS such as Yellow Dog and then prevent/ban/stop people from using the disc drive to load programs or data.
I could *perhaps* see them disabling the Blu-ray functionality, but to disable the DVD functionality would be a little extreme in my opinion.
If they want the PS3 to double as a personal computer (which it would have the capability of doing with Yellow Dog) then how would you input data into the PS3? It's pretty useless if you cannot load software onto it. Would you be required to input data via USB? Would you have to download every application via the internet? Or would you have have to put the data on a memory card and load it that way?
It just does not make sense to me that they would allow the PS3 to double as a personal computer with a FULLY FUNCTIONAL OS such as Yellow Dog and then prevent/ban/stop people from using the disc drive to load programs or data.
I could *perhaps* see them disabling the Blu-ray functionality, but to disable the DVD functionality would be a little extreme in my opinion.
The latter are pretty much inevitable
There's no getting around it, there will be bugs etc. Hopefully they'll be kept to a minimum and/or addressed promptly, but it's gonna happen.Second, I'm not sure they are marketing PS3 as a PC replacement as far as Linux goes. I think it's actually aimed at a more sophisticated audience - bedroom programmers - primarily.
I think most people do predominantly download apps/rpms off the net with Linux. It's the primary means for the distribution of Linux software. When was the last time you walked into a store and saw linux software on the shelves?
Gradthrawn
Veteran
I see no one here had the PS2 Linux Kit. We had absolutely no access to the optical drive and managed just fine. Mounting/dismounting external volumes was not an issue either. If you're clever enough to run any Linux distro, then you're clever enough to use an external drive. It also seems that a lot of people are going on the assumption that this will be pre-installed, thereby reaching millions of users. I know several SCE reps have stated that they wanted Linux pre-installed on the HDD on day 1, but do we actually have confirmation that Yellow Dog will be? Or are we all assuming that it will based on its “mid-November†release date? Solid info would be great.
I'm calling you crazy!
Purchase linux applications?Seriously, when was the last time you bought some linux software on physical media? If they ship a compiler you're good to go. On that topic, do you believe that they'll really just let us run our own compiled stuff in YDL happily, or will they introduce some executable signing scheme (á la MS)?
Anyway, I'd also guess that drive access will be restricted to DVD or removed totally, that's a relatively simple measure that will not affect legitimate homebrew but perhaps improve security.
I glanced through the web site referenced and I looked at the YDL forum. So far, I haven't seen any specific connection with the PS3. They list an included kernel for the G5. Well, that's PPC, but it's not the Cell. So far, I'm just not believing this.
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Greg
You mean apart from the OP ( http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/products/ydl/ which mentions PS3 specifically ) and Sony mentioning several times that they want to include Linux with the PS3 on several occasions, right? Add that distro also being the one used by Mercury on IBM Cell Blades and terrasoft also working together with Sony building some big Cell clusters, and I'd say we're as close to a sure thing as it gets without actually opening the package.
Wait, wait, wait.... Did you mention mainstream and Linux in the same sentence without a "not" somewhere in there?
There are three main reasons why Linux has a reputation as a geek OS:
1) Doesn't come with the PC/pre-installed with the PC, so mainstream users don't get to try it.
2) Linux drivers don't come with hardware you buy, so you have to look up compatibility and maybe find and download drivers and configure them yourself.
3) Most distributions are aimed at the geek market , and so try to appeal to geeks rather than to mainstream users, and so often comes without GUI config tools, and with stuff that requires re-compilation of the kernel etc.
These don't apply with the PS3 because:
1) It comes with the PS3 so it's users are mainstream users.
2) The PS3 hardware is fixed, so all necessary drivers can be built it and come preinstalled and preconfigured. Sitting in the living room, it is likely to have only a limited range of add-on USB peripherals, and no internal expansion.
3) PS3 is aimed at mainstream users, and there is a single hardware configuration target so there is no reason why it shouldn't come completely pre-configured to work out of the box - no messing about required.
There is therefore no reason why PS3 shouldn't be easier than Windows for the mainstream user, since there is even less configuration custom necessary than a Windows PC which has to cater for a wide range of hardware and requires stuff like drivers and anti-virus software to be installed or kept updated by the end user.
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Network, USB flash key, USB Floppy drive, USB external HD or DVD RW, Wireless LAN, etc. Plus I don't see why they should disable the built in BD drive since they have an SPE sitting there doing DRM which can prevent booting of non-official disks. They may prevent you from booting off ithe BD drive though, (even though the DRM should have sufficient selective control for Sony to allow booting on non-games programs off the BD drive with less resources available, like fewer SPEs, than for official games).
Well it doesn't mean you can't distribute applications, you just can't do it through disc media. Realistically, this is probably not an ideal solution for various Linux applications anyway because it probably doesn't have the volume to support pressing discs or distribution through traditional retail channels. The pace of Linux development is another issue to consider, as many projects are updated on a weekly, or if you follow CVS, daily basis.
You will still be able to download plenty of applications as well as source. Hopefully, with YDL behind it, PS3 Linux may get much more official support than PS2 Linux ever did. This means we may see official binary distributions for many applications which were previously left up to users to port on their own.
Based on the PS2 Linux kit, to my knowledge, no one was able to read the DVD drive without some kind of hardware-level hack.
I don't see why not. They did it on the PS2, even providing documentation and a compiler (gcc).
I'm a little groggy right now so I don't remember who said this. But someone said that what we need are FACTS about this Linux distribution. I want to say that I totally 100% agree.
All I want for a change are some DETAILS and FACTS when it comes to various aspects of the PS3, and in this case the LINUX OS. In my opinion, we are close enough to the launch that there is no reason on God's green earth why Sony can't go ahead and post a website specifying how this OS is going to work on the PS3. I'm guilty of doing too much speculation myself, but I'm getting tired of speculation. I enjoy speculating, but at the same time it drives me totally nuts. It makes me pull my hair out! I'm just exhausted from not having facts and having to squeeze out assumptions from very little data.
It would be wonderful if someone on Beyond 3D that is in contact with Sony could ask them a few questions about this and then get back with us.
All I want for a change are some DETAILS and FACTS when it comes to various aspects of the PS3, and in this case the LINUX OS. In my opinion, we are close enough to the launch that there is no reason on God's green earth why Sony can't go ahead and post a website specifying how this OS is going to work on the PS3. I'm guilty of doing too much speculation myself, but I'm getting tired of speculation. I enjoy speculating, but at the same time it drives me totally nuts. It makes me pull my hair out! I'm just exhausted from not having facts and having to squeeze out assumptions from very little data.
It would be wonderful if someone on Beyond 3D that is in contact with Sony could ask them a few questions about this and then get back with us.
I don't have any doubt that everyone is going to do just what they say. Terra Soft will sell you a version of Linux that will work fine on a PS3 which is part of a supercomputing cluster, but it might not be so useful on your own personal PS3 that you want to do graphic applications on. IBM will give you a Linux kernel and a compiler for the Cell that will run on IBM hardware, but not on the PS3. Sony will ship a user version of Linux with source including compiler and system libraries, but it won't be YDL and it may not have any means for programming the graphics processor, so it won't be useful for games. Except Adventure.
I'm not doubting we'll get some Linuxen. I'm skeptical it will amount to anything that will be very interesting to home programmers. I think some of us are jumping to conclusions.
--Greg
Since Sony specifically mentioned they want to stimulate home programmers and have in fact done similar things for all generations of Playstations, I think you're completely off the ball here. But we'll see soon enough.
You can already do everything mentioned above on the PS2...
