Yamauchi on the PS3: "...beginning of a new world..."

[Powderkeg]

err wtf are u talking about ?

The xenos can do hdr and fsaa on images just fine. It can actual do fp10 hdr . THe pipelines are fully orthangal (Sp? )

Xenos is a 2 chip processor. There is the GPU itself, and the seperate EDRAM with embedded logic. It is the EDRAM that performs the AA, not the GPU.

However if the the rsx is based on the g70 then it can only do fsaa or hdr . Aside from that it must do fp16 hdr . Which while its a better truer hdr uses much more bandwidth.

Like I said before, RSC can perform the HDR, and then render the final frame to the XDR memory. Cell can then pick up the frame and perform the AA. It's a solution that uses a 2 chip/2 memory bank design, but that's how the 360 works as well.

 

[pakpassion]

Xenos is a 2 chip processor. There is the GPU itself, and the seperate EDRAM with embedded logic. It is the EDRAM that performs the AA, not the GPU.



Like I said before, RSC can perform the HDR, and then render the final frame to the XDR memory. Cell can then pick up the frame and perform the AA. It's a solution that uses a 2 chip/2 memory bank design, but that's how the 360 works as well.

wont that be a waste of alot of bandwidth of first RSX has to do HDR then Cell has to apply AA? first id like some links to see where Cell can perform AA

 

[Powderkeg]

First I would like to see where it is noted as fact that PS3 can do something similiar because and secondly if it can it will be very tough to implement in the PS3 when you first have to program the Cell to do AA and RSX to do HDR which is another case to see because HDR of X1800 XT performs ALOT better than the 7800 GTX in terms of benchmark performances when HDR is applied.

Which part do you need to see? That RSX can write the frame buffer to XDR?

Or that Cell can do FSAA? If you need proof that Cell can do FSAA, I would like to point out that the PS2's Emotion Engine is already doing AA in some games. I see no logical reason why the PS2 could do this, but the far more powerful PS3 couldn't, do you?

 

[Powderkeg]

wont that be a waste of alot of bandwidth of first RSX has to do HDR then Cell has to apply AA?

Cell has a different memory bank with it's own seperate bandwidth. Yes, it would use some of the XDR bandwidth, but it wouldn't use up any of the GDDR3 bandwdith at all to perform AA this way.

first id like some links to see where Cell can perform AA

The CPU on the PS2 has been doing AA since 2001. Why do you need to see proof that the PS3 CPU can do the same thing? Shouldn't it be obvious that if the PS2 can do it, so can the PS3?

 

[pakpassion]

Which part do you need to see? That RSX can write the frame buffer to XDR?

Or that Cell can do FSAA? If you need proof that Cell can do FSAA, I would like to point out that the PS2's Emotion Engine is already doing AA in some games. I see no logical reason why the PS2 could do this, but the far more powerful PS3 couldn't, do you?

is PS2 can do AA, Id like to see some examples

 

[Powderkeg]

is PS2 can do AA, Id like to see some examples

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/081/081661p1.html

From June 30, 2000.

 

[pakpassion]

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/081/081661p1.html

From June 30, 2000.

ive read this article before and another one where Sony said " unlike PS1, PS2 is very complicated", the same is the case here + multicore, multiparallel designs which makes it even harder for developers NOT to get a performance hit atleast till the 2nd or 3rd generation but by that time PC graphics will get better.

 

[jvd]

The CPU on the PS2 has been doing AA since 2001. Why do you need to see proof that the PS3 CPU can do the same thing? Shouldn't it be obvious that if the PS2 can do it, so can the PS3?

The cpu wouldn't be doing aa on the ps2. The gs would be using its texture fillrate to do supersampling but how many titles did that esp later on as fillrate was used to do more and more tasks that weren't "hardwired in"

 

[Powderkeg]

ive read this article before and another one where Sony said " unlike PS1, PS2 is very complicated", the same is the case here + multicore, multiparallel designs which makes it even harder for developers NOT to get a performance hit atleast till the 2nd or 3rd generation but by that time PC graphics will get better.

Ahh, the classic "I'm wrong, so let's try to change the subject" post eh?

 

[pakpassion]

Ahh, the classic "I'm wrong, so let's try to change the subject" post eh?

errr no im not wrong. im saying the performance of AA that PS2 performance is nothing compared to the performance of AA a GPU performs. AA requires alot of bandwidth and processing power and if PS3 needs Cell to do AA to have HDR and AA at the same time then then the overall power of the consoles are not dissimiliar and the games will look similiar atleast in 1st 2nd gen games , then I think Xenos will start showing its colors.

 

[Powderkeg]

The cpu wouldn't be doing aa on the ps2. The gs would be using its texture fillrate to do supersampling but how many titles did that esp later on as fillrate was used to do more and more tasks that weren't "hardwired in"

Generally, those developers who chose to do it used one of the VU's to run the AA algorithm while the GS does the final rendering.

Likewise with Cell you could dedicate one of the SPE's to run the AA algorithm, and the bandwidth used would come from the XDR pool, not the GDDR3 that RSX uses.

It's not as elegent as the 360's method, but it could get the job done, and the end result would be the same.

 

[pakpassion]

Generally, those developers who chose to do it used one of the VU's to run the AA algorithm while the GS does the final rendering.

Likewise with Cell you could dedicate one of the SPE's to run the AA algorithm, and the bandwidth used would come from the XDR pool, not the GDDR3 that RSX uses.

It's not as elegent as the 360's method, but it could get the job done, and the end result would be the same.

with SPEs lacking branch predictions, i dont think 1 SPE is enough for AA

 

[HappyBread]

His team got these out of PS2.

This gen:

Next gen:

Yes, PGR3 has more detail as it should with it sporting a 80-90% increase in polygons, but those GT4 models still hold their own against "photo-realistic" (I've heard people call PGR3 that ;P) PGR3 models. So, if Mr. Yamauchi says they'll reach a photo-realistic look with PS3 I believe him.

 

[jvd]

How many spus would this require and how much of the xdr bandwidth would this take up ?

You'd have to send the completed frame to the cell to have this done to it , or your going to have to allow the cell to acess the frame to manipulate it and that is going to end up suing alot of bandwidth

 

[pakpassion]

His team got these out of PS2.

This gen:

Yes, PGR3 has more detail as it should with it sporting a 80-90% increase in polygons, but those GT4 models still hold their own against "photo-realistic" (I've heard people call PGR3 that ;P) PGR3 models. So, if Mr. Yamauchi says they'll reach a photo-realistic look with PS3 I believe him.

actually this is PS2 GT4 ingame:

 

[randycat99]

with SPEs lacking branch predictions, i dont think 1 SPE is enough for AA

Lemme guess, AA is faster with DP, OOOe, and Memexport, as well? Hmmm, have GPU's for the past 5 generations or so been sporting extensive branch prediction?...

 

[Powderkeg]

How many spus would this require and how much of the xdr bandwidth would this take up ?

You'd have to send the completed frame to the cell to have this done to it , or your going to have to allow the cell to acess the frame to manipulate it and that is going to end up suing alot of bandwidth

Well, look at it this way.

RSX has 22.4GB/sec bandwidth, same as the System RAM of the 360, which has to be split between both Xenos and the CPU.

Cell has a seperate bank of XDR, which has an additional 25.6GB/sec bandwidth to use.

Now, let's say we have a game which uses 10GB/Sec bandwidth for the CPU on both systems. That only leaves 15GB for Xenos on the 360, but it leaves 22.4GB/sec for RSX, and an additional 15GB/sec just for AA on the PS3.

I seriously doubt it would require over 15GB/sec bandwidth to perform AA on just 60 otherwise complete frames per second.

 

[HappyBread]

actually this is PS2 GT4 ingame:

The cars I posted are "ingame" models.

*confused*

 

[pegisys]

Well, look at it this way.

RSX has 22.4GB/sec bandwidth, same as the System RAM of the 360, which has to be split between both Xenos and the CPU.

Cell has a seperate bank of XDR, which has an additional 25.6GB/sec bandwidth to use.

Now, let's say we have a game which uses 10GB/Sec bandwidth for the CPU on both systems. That only leaves 15GB for Xenos on the 360, but it leaves 22.4GB/sec for RSX, and an additional 15GB/sec just for AA on the PS3.

I seriously doubt it would require over 15GB/sec bandwidth to perform AA on just 60 otherwise complete frames per second.

I think the small LS on the spu's would hold it back more than the bandwidth, wouldn't you have to tile the frame to fit

I think it should be enough BW from the RSX to the gddr for AA and other backbuffer effects, and just use the XDR for everything else

 

[randycat99]

Let's throw down a value then, shall we? I submit that 1.5-3 GB/s should suffice to handle an AA stream. Yay or nay, anybody?