Xbox Q1 Losses Up From Last Year

gmoran said:
I find it beyond belief that people still think it is reasonable for MS to completely bankroll Xbox. Xbox will not make a profit because the market is much tougher than MS expected: they thought they could charge more for Xbox as a premium product but quickly had to fall in line with PS2 pricing.

this is exactly what happened in europe when the xbox price was nearly cut by half very soon after the release.

However the prize for MS if they suceed is the multi billion console market. And a new monopoly, where the price of entry for "would be" multinational competitors, will be $40 billion in the bank? Where competition is based on who can stand to lose the most money subsisiding their console.

yes, it's the investment microsoft made: use the big money they have in order to drive the poorer console makers out of the market. a brute force financial attack.

neither nintendo or sony have a comparable financial power, comparable profit sources that could let them loose billions on a console.
 
cybamerc said:
Qroach:
Name me a succesful console that was sold at a loss after two years on the market.

XBox :D

The masters of subvention are here and their coffers are overflowing. This is an MS strategical op, regular business rules do not apply.
 
Magnum PI said:
neither nintendo or sony have a comparable financial power, comparable profit sources that could let them loose billions on a console.

Yes, MS does have a lot of assets and liquidity, but that doesn't mean they can just whip it out for the Xbox, unless (like sony is doing with PS3 and Cell architecture) they make Xbox the centerpiece of their company.

Sony has been focusing on "living room" entertainment for the last 10 years, they have fused (or are fusing) their corporation to make PS3 and "livingroom entertainment" the main source of profit for them.

Xbox is not the centerpiece of MS, and they are not giving any hints on it becoming so. Windows and Windows based program (especially business related ones, that's where MS makes most of their profit, with the extortion prices they charge businesses for licences on Window OS and programs...). Xbox is surely not the main profit source of MS, it is not profitable at all in fact. Therefore it will not be the money drain it is now forever.
Windows can be (although it isn't, funny enough, since the profit margin on MS software is scaringly high), Xbox can't.
 
gmoran:

gmoran said:
I think you misunderstand me; I think MS's business model is reasonably likely to succeed over the medium term. A console model based around PC technology is very attractive to developers and publishers. If you can stand the losses, then eventually the company you are competing with, will slip up with the proprietry technology, or the advances gained from proprietry tech will run into diminishing returns. So as long as you can bank roll it to that point, you should eventually succeed. At which point either/or games sales will subsidise high hardware costs throughout the lifecycle or you can charge higher for the hardware as you no longer have competition.

I agree, except that I believe it is more than just a question of which technology each company is using. Microsoft might have the cash to keep Xbox going at a loss for a very long time, but just competing won't be good enough. Sony on the other hand is making actual profit with their hardware, despite it being arguably more dated compared to the PC tech Xbox is using. If Microsoft ever wants to make a profit out of this industry, they'll have to find a better solution than loosing money on there hardware for most of its life cycle. I also think it is important to not forget that it will take more than just a question of technology to actually succeed. Sony not only has the more cost efficiant hardware, it also has the content people want. Money is good for many things, but it won't buy them success that easily once you are dealing with a competitor that not only has a lot of money, but also very important mindshare.


Magnum PI

Magnum PI said:
neither nintendo or sony have a comparable financial power, comparable profit sources that could let them loose billions on a console.

I think with the money Sony has and is willing to invest, Microsoft doesn't really stand out that much anymore. Even then, one has to consider the brand recognition the Sony brand enjoys, not to mention the immense mindshare going on in the gaming inustry. You can't buy everything with money.
 
Johnny Awesome said:
If Sony wants MS level of profitability with Live they will have to model the Live plan.

Profits already? Last I heard MS would commit one billion to get Live running...

On the 4 to 5 year plan; I recall it was outside analysts projecting that time frame to start breaking even on the console price, not MS. That would be if projected sales were realized along the way, which has not been the case to date.

Anyhoo, IMO these losses are of little significance to MS. I believe the plan with xbox all along was to keep DX support from eventually becoming irrelevant this decade. Toward that end, xbox has been a major success. Don't forget, the plan for xbox was put in the works only after Sony flatly refused lobbying efforts by MS to develop a version of DirectX for PS2.
 
Magnum PI said:
yes, it's the investment microsoft made: use the big money they have in order to drive the poorer console makers out of the market. a brute force financial attack.

neither nintendo or sony have a comparable financial power, comparable profit sources that could let them loose billions on a console.
You are forgetting that Sony are not losing money on PS2. They are making money, lots of it. While MS are essentially pouring money down a black hole to keep Xbox going, Sony can (and do) make enourmous investments in PS2/PS3 and even further ahead, knowing that the money will come back, plus plenty more in profits.

So the question really is - is MS willing to lose more than Sony earn from their console (knowing that Sony earn billions from PS2, and will from PS3 as well)?

For now the answer is yes, but wether MS will want in the long run to try to outspend a competitor, whilst that competitor is bringing in huge profits is a very open question!
 
Certainly Microsoft is pouring money into Xbox, but whether or not it is a black hole remains to be seen. I doubt it.

PS: There is no way that MS spent $1 billion on Live. People should use their head instead of listening to spin and PR. It doesn't even make any sense. The truth is that MS spent an extra $1 billion when they announced Live on various things, one of which was Live.
 
I imagine people are rembering articles like this which was talking exclusively of costs related to Xbox Live. The current expenditures are unknown, but $2 billion-over-five-years still represents significant costs. How much have the spent until now? <shrugs> Certainly their future vision has been held back a lot, however, as they were hoping for 10 million subscribers at $10/month at the end of that period. Subscription has been slower than expected, and they've already had to back away from their desired subscription price, so the future seems to be rather amorphous.
 
I believe the amount of cash MS blew on Live. Hell they held a Xbox Live launch party with all types of hollywood stars at it.
 
Johnny,

I said commit, not spent. Which to my mind implies the money invested over the long haul, not just what it would take to serve a few 100,000 for the first year or two. For an infrastructure that is supposed to serve millions of subscribers a billion doesn't seem so far fetched to me.

BTW, how many xbox live kits got sold to pay for those 10 million unused cable modems? A cheap shot, nevermind
 
Listen, MS is on record as investing a total of around $3-4 billion into the Xbox project. That's a pretty substantial sum, but it's hard to say what went to Xbox, Live, and Xbox 2, or what is left over in those coffers right now. Their short term goal was 1 million Live subscribers by June 2004 as stated at E3 2002. They have a good chance of meeting that goal, mainly on the strength of Halo 2.

I still think MS has a shot at going from 10 million right now to 25-30 million Xbox units sold at the end of the lifecycle (probably 2006 or so). For this to happen though, a lot of PS2 owners are going to have to want Halo 2 and couple of other things to entice them. I still think that Rare will eventually pull of a real hit with something like Perfect Dark Zero as well.
 
Seems like a helluva lot of extra users to convert. 1 million by June 2004--19 months from Live's launch (US at least, a bit less in Europe), but 9 million more in the next 30 months? At their current rate of sales they would indeed be at ~25 million at the 5 year mark (~16 million installed base) so that would mean increasing Live's adoption from 6.25% to 40% in that extra time. (Will 40% of people even have BROADBAND by that point? Last I heard we were only in the high teens for broadband adopters.)

I'm not sure about their current numbers, but their main page still flashes "more than 500k" (which they announced hitting back in April, as I remember), so unless they're holding back for some reason I guess they have somewhere between 500-600k active subscribers right now, or 5-6% adoption. That's some pretty low moving in the next year to bust things wide open afterward. We also right now, of course, have a bit of confusion since we know two months of Live come free with every Xbox sold right now, so there's likely lots of people coming and going. It would be most interesting to see an actual adoption rate of people who tried and continue to subscribe, and those who tried and left (and what kinds of time periods they were on for.)

Certainly as more and more games filter in the popularity will grow, and I have no doubt Halo 2 will get plenty of interested parties on board (and back on board), but I don't think the end of the run will anywhere near where they were hoping. (Especially since they plan to get Xbox2 out before that point, which will almost assuredly confuse the sales of the current gen.) ALSO especially since they planned on 10 million at $10, and since their current monthly subscription is $5, matching the dollar amount would require them to have 20 million active subscribers, or raising their price. (Which they might be able to do once enough people are "hooked" but might also cost them both active subscribers and potential joiners in the process.)

Also keep in mind that $2 billion over the five year mark--even going by their HOPED target number of 10 million--amounts to $200 per person. A year of Live now costs $40 ($60 if you perpetually pay month-to-month)--minus a lot of profit for the first year from the kit--and only started off at $70 (and the rates went down to $50 or so before the first renewal date I believe). The five year mark lost a bit from the time of press announcements to its launch, but even assuming they had their hoped-for numbers AT that mark paying FOR the five full years, the numbers would barely break out of the red.

The numbers are simplistic, but even going by their own projections and what I must call "very optimal targets," the service doesn't stand a chance of making a profit unless the situation drastically changes.
 
Good thing I write my posts in Notepad.


Qroach:

> Excuse me if I don't trust aything you say at all!

You don't have to take my word for it. A search on Google will lead you to many reputable news sites.

> The first link you posted says NOTHING about the hardware becoming
> profitable.

Here we go again.

Course: Introductory English

(I'll have to start charging you soon)

"Nobuyuki Idei, Chief Executive, Sony Corp, stated that the Playstation 2 was already a profitable venture, as far as console sales go. He also forecasts that Sony's games division will be profitable by year-end to March 2002..."

In the first sentence we are being informed that Sony is making money and that the money is being made specifically on sold console systems.

Now this could just be an error on the writers part. But...

In the second sentence we learn that Sony expect to make generate a profit on the entire game business from year end and forward. Indicating that it hasn't so far, thus lessening the chance that the thing that was talked about in the first was in fact something other than PS2 hardware.

Now, moving onto the PDF Kutaragi states that reduced production costs has allowed the PS2 to become profitable in the latter half of fiscal 2001. The latter half being the period September 31 - March 31.

The article in the first link was published October 1, that is at the beginning of the second half of Sony's fiscal year.

Also note that Sony is using the word "profitable" in regards to PS2 hardware sales. The actual break-even point came much earlier as Nick Laslett pointed out.

> Then again Sony basically didn't have any competition during that time
> frame.

Blah blah blah.



Johnny Awesome:

> the video game market was an established mature market when MS
> entered the fray with Xbox.

The video game market was an established mature market when Sony
entered the fray with PlayStation.

> If Sony wants MS level of profitability with Live they will have to model
> the Live plan.

Xbox Live is not profitable.

> The truth is that MS spent an extra $1 billion when they announced Live
> on various things, one of which was Live.

Wrong. M$ announced that it was planning to spend $2 billion on the Xbox business over the next 5 years of which more than a billion was going into Xbox Live. It's money down the drain. Xbox Live is about where it was at the beginning of the year in terms of subscribers.
 
Yeah, I saw your old post and didn't know what happened to it either. It might help if you and Qroach would stop being so hostile to each other. Links and be links and points can be made without all the invective and hostility.
 
cthellis42:

> It might help if you and Qroach would stop being so hostile to each other.

While I agree that the bickering is not ideal I'm not going to let baseless claims and outright lies go by without a comment. Nor am I going to ignore his comments about me being biased (Which I admit I am. Of course I am. It's human nature) when he fails to come up with compelling counter-arguments - as if it somehow invalidates my argumentation. Unlike him I am perfectly capable of looking past my personal preferences.

And I'd also like to point out that nothing I've said is any way more offensive than the things that are being said about ppl like Deadmeat and chap. Yet you don't see those post being deleted. It seems to me like Quincy is getting special treatment and that is something I can't tolerate.
 
cybamerc said:
While I agree that the bickering is not ideal I'm not going to let baseless claims and outright lies go by without a comment. Nor am I going to ignore his comments about me being biased (Which I admit I am. Of course I am. It's human nature) when he fails to come up with compelling counter-arguments - as if it somehow invalidates my argumentation. Unlike him I am perfectly capable of looking past my personal preferences.

Indeed, but you guys could both still go at it with less hostility, considering it only ramps upwards and tarnishes the information you try to get across.

cybamerc said:
And I'd also like to point out that nothing I've said is any way more offensive than the things that are being said about ppl like Deadmeat and chap.

<laughs> Believe me, I CERTAINLY wouldn't make that claim!

cybamerc said:
Yet you don't see those post being deleted. It seems to me like Quincy is getting special treatment and that is something I can't tolerate.

Well I can't comment on that, offhand, and certainly don't agree with post-removal-sans-mention. I'm more of an "edit, perhaps, and warn if things are getting too hot" sort, but then again I've also seen posts swallowed by forums for no understandable reason. One of the mods would have to comment here.
 
You don't have to take my word for it. A search on Google will lead you to many reputable news sites.

Well sorry, but unlike yourself, I don't need to read a website to get predictions on the future of gaming. Still, like I said before, I'm NOT going ot take your word on any xbox related predictions as you been wrong on almost everything regarding that system.

(I'll have to start charging you soon)

"Nobuyuki Idei, Chief Executive, Sony Corp, stated that the Playstation 2 was already a profitable venture, as far as console sales go. He also forecasts that Sony's games division will be profitable by year-end to March 2002..."


Yeah that's pretty a funny, but the writer didn't actually QUOTE Nobuyuki Idei saying that. This article came from October 2001 long before Kutagari actually said they became profitable in the later half of the finscal year. Sounded like PR work to me, specifically when he couldn't be quoted saying that. excuse me if I don't believe the writers interpretation of what was said.

Lol, not only that but Idei went on to say they wouldn't have to revise sales estimates, and then they actually did. Sounded like more PR imo.

Blah blah blah.

Yeah that sums up your attitude and argument.

There's a reason your post probably got removed cybermerc, you simpley have trouble getting along with others. I'm not getting any special treatment, but I thought you should have been banned a while back for the MANY times you would resort to swearing and name calling.
 
btw,

Wrong. M$ announced that it was planning to spend $2 billion on the Xbox business over the next 5 years of which more than a billion was going into Xbox Live. It's money down the drain. Xbox Live is about where it was at the beginning of the year in terms of subscribers.

Um, no. Unless you can point out when MS came right out an stated they spent 1 billion on live, I don't beleive you are correct. If I rmrember correctly it was 2 billion over 5 years on xbox live AND Xbox.
 
Qroach:

> Well sorry, but unlike yourself, I don't need to read a website to get
> predictions on the future of gaming.

A desperate attempt at an insult. I suggest you look up the word "prediction" and then proceed to check out those websites. You'll learn I was merely passing on information as stated by M$ itself.

> as you been wrong on almost everything regarding that system.

This is something you can prove of course?

> excuse me if I don't believe the writers interpretation of what was said.

It's perfectly in-line with the information from the PDF.

There's also the information Nick Laslett posted which you conveniently ignored.

Here's an additional link:
http://www.gamemarketwatch.com/news/item.asp?nid=2120

You'll find many references to the FT article all over the internet.

> Unless you can point out when MS came right out an stated they spent
> 1 billion on live, I don't beleive you are correct.

I thought you didn't need websites mr. Industry Insider.

Anyway, I'll just post a few samples as there are honestly too many to choose from.

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-918460.html
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,100143,00.asp
http://money.cnn.com/2002/10/03/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/
http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/technology/personal_technology/4131423.htm
 
I thought you didn't need websites mr. Industry Insider.

Anyway, I'll just post a few samples as there are honestly too many to choose from.

How about i just choose ONE, no TWO of the links you posted Mr know it all.

http://money.cnn.com/2002/10/03/commentary/game_over/column_gaming/

"Microsoft has committed to spending $2 billion on the Xbox over the next five years. A substantial portion of that is on Xbox Live."


http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/technology/personal_technology/4131423.htm

"It is investing $2 billion over five years to Xbox Live and other improvements."

Once agian to just state what other in this thread have already stated. MS didn't spend 1 billion creating xbox live. tehy are spending 2 billion over FIVE years on live and xbox.

I may not be as current on sony and PS2 financials as I amd on gamecube and xbox, but like I said before, when it comes to xbox you're usually wrong.
 
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