XBL Marketplace - NEW RESTRICTIONS!

[Tap In]

....A system that allows these sorts of people to get ripped off, will never succeed, imo.
..

some good points there Scooby but in all fairness I have yet to see an official response from MS and much of this convo is theoretical at this point so AFAIK we do not know of the official stance nor solution form MS. :smile:
so perhaps it is premature to say people are being ripped off.

BUT.... I still stand by my point that people lied to get the content. (excluding the tiny minority who actually changed locations).

 

[dobwal]

The analogy fails on many different levels.
1) A bar owner is not knowingly allowing minors into the bar, as MS knowingly sold goods to other countries. If he knowingly allowed me in, only to turn around after I've ordered and paid and kick me out? Then yes, I would definately expect a refund.

A bar does knowingly lets you in on the premise that you satisfy the requirements of entrance. MS offered access on the premise that you were a citizen or actually in the country you were downloading from.

Most people don't have credit cards that were establish outside their home countries, so its a easy way to exclude the majority of people from engaging in buying DLC without forcing IP restriction, which affects those citizens living abroad but bought their content while living in their home country. Neverthelss, just because MS didn't restrict IPs doesn't mean a consumer can ignore the premise of the agreement with MS on downloading content.

2) The money paid was for lifetime access to the IP, nit a single viewing. So, it can't be compared to a single serving item. (Referring to TV downloads here)

The services aren't (in my belief) stipulated to last for the lifetime of the consumer. The services are probably stipulated to end at the discretion of MS.

And really, you can defend MS all day long, and say that they have every legal right to do this, and I'll agree, they do. But that's not my point.

My point is the problems with digital media, which oprevent widespread adoption. This is just one small example of how easy it is for customers to get screwed out of their money/time. The fact that this behaviour is NOT illegal, is part of the problem, and part of the reason the whole damn thing is so unappealing to alot of people.

MS, or any othe provider, can do anything they want, and you have next to no recourse, you are but one small consumer with no direct support at all. It's not a system that will work!

If these companies want digital distribution to succeed any time soon, they have to ensure that these problems do not happen. At all costs, they need to err on the side of the consumer not getting scammed. These are not thieves or criminals we're talking about, these are people who purchased the content and paid their own hard-earned money. A system that allows these sorts of people to get ripped off, will never succeed, imo.

My view is that, in a system where the consumer is not getting a physical copy of the IP they are paying for, the companies selling the product are obligated to have higher level of responsibility with ensuring that the consumer is protected. Otherwise, it will always be a niche market, since B&M stores will offer superior customer service, reliability, and consumer satisfaction.

There nothing "screwed", "scammed" or "ripped off" about taking part in an illegimate action that you know you're not suppose to be doing and then suddenly that action being restricted. People that move abroad have a legimate issue but those that circumvent the restriction by using outside accounts tied to outside credit cards not of their home country shouldn't expect anything.

The motivation for regional restriction comes from content owners and not MS. The content owners are the one who are also screaming "screwed", "scammed" or "ripped off" and have the ultimate say in how their content gets distributed and under what restrictions to consumers as long as they don't violate consumer rights given by their gov't. MS motivation plays a part in keeping that DLC tied to the 360. The problem is you have the content companies placing a bunch of selfserving and greedy restrictions on digital distribuition to maximize an their IPs' profit potential that becomes very unattractive to consumers.

My view is that if you downloading IP with DRM, you better be pretty sure that the purchase is worth all the hassle that would be alleviated by just spending more money and buying a hard copy.

 

[valioso]

At the very least they should be offering a refund, in cash, to anyone who is having their content revoked.

To simply leave the loophole open for 6 months, cash everyone's cheque, and then say "Oops sorry bout that!' and take their content away is just wrong on a matter of principle. At the very least, refund the cash.

In short, MS should accept some measure of responsibility here, rather than shifting it 100% to the end user. It's their fault they left this very obvious, and very easy loophole open, to not expect people to take advantage of it is idiotic. To screw em over after the fact is just wrong.

p.s. No, I haven't been affected by this personally.

People are lying and cheating to get the content, is like a thief wanting a refund because the dvd they stole does not work after 10 days.

 

[scooby_dooby]

People are lying and cheating to get the content, is like a thief wanting a refund because the dvd they stole does not work after 10 days.

Except the 'thief' paid in full

And MS gladly accepted the 'thiefs' money.

 

[valioso]

Except the 'thief' paid in full

And MS gladly accepted the 'thiefs' money.

So Microsoft is to blame for someone lying? If they had entered their correct location in the first place they would had not been able to access the content.. so the responsability is on the user.

 

[scooby_dooby]

My view is that if you downloading IP with DRM, you better be pretty sure that the purchase is worth all the hassle that would be alleviated by just spending more money and buying a hard copy.

Well exactly, and that will be the mindset of most ordinary people. It's the presence of these 'hassles' which hamstrings digital delivery, and that's all I'm referring too. They need to remove them if they want this to work.

This situation is just one example, perhaps a grey area for some(not me, I don't like to see corporations take peoples money for services not rendered), but there are many more.

 

[scooby_dooby]

So Microsoft is to blame for someone lying? If they had entered their correct location in the first place they would had not been able to access the content.. so the responsability is on the user.

You can start by reading my posts:

And really, you can defend MS all day long, and say that they have every legal right to do this, and I'll agree, they do. But that's not my point.

My point is the problems with digital media, which oprevent widespread adoption. This is just one small example of how easy it is for customers to get screwed out of their money/time. The fact that this behaviour is NOT illegal, is part of the problem, and part of the reason the whole damn thing is so unappealing to alot of people.

 

[scooby_dooby]

You must have much better store than we do

lol, at least I don't have to wait on the phone for 40minutes to talk to someone who 50% of the time can hardly speak engrish!! And 100% of the time, has nothing but cookie cutter answers for me.

I dunno, I think all DLC really needs it's own, dedicated support service, so they can actually solve issues, rather a generic help desk that deals with everything under the sun but can do nothing.

 

[valioso]

You can start by reading my posts:

but your argument has nothing to do with Microsoft.. they are not the owners of the content.

 

[ninzel]

That was only meant as one example of regional issues, although it's certainly one that slows things down. Regardless of what ratings are handed out, the content has to go through the various review boards, with the right paperwork and legal shennanigans. You can't have a download video just sent around the EU without the different governments all wanting to have their say regards their populations. Although the internet has managed that okay, but I doubt the governments are happy about it!

I guess I just take for granted the tight knit relationship between Canada and the US and forget that not all countries share the same relationship.
The relationships between US content providers and Canadian broadcasters are close and long standing. We literally get most if not all media from the US instantaneously.TV shows,news broadcasts etc. I can be talking to a relative in the US and assuming we are in the same time zone,be discussing the show in real time over the phone(except for the few seconds delay).
All the content offered on XBLA to the US consumer from a Canadian perspective is content that has already been rated for view in Canada and already been viewed within Canada.

 

[AzBat]

I agree with most here that people getting this content did so illegally. They violated the terms of the agreement. They risked their own money to get content they knew was not available in their own country. I don't see how they should ever be compensated for their abuse of a loop hole. Microsoft did right by fixing the loop hole. Some will say it should have been there from the get go or fixed quickly after the last update. But we don't know what happened behind the scenes. Microsoft possibly had a technical issue that couldn't have been resolved until now. Or may even *gasp* delayed this "fix" to the last moment to protect their legitimate customers rights. Who knows what the hell happened.

Either way I believe the people(like Scooby) who are up in arms about this whole thing have a totally different philosophical view on media ownership. They believe that content that they pay for is legitimately their own property and have every right to do what they will with said property. These are the same people that think they own every game, album, movie, etc that they have ever bought and can make as many copies as they want or do whatever else they want with them. Unfortunately that's not the law. They only have been given license to use the content under certain restrictions. Until these owners(who think the law is wrong) go to their lawmakers and request a change I believe they have no right to make any complaints. Personally I don't think they will. They'll just take an easy way out and steal it anyway. Which in turns makes the DRM worse and more expensive for us law abiding citizens. So excuse me if I don't feel any pity for you.

Tommy McClain

 

[Deepblue]

Hello.
After reading all the info in this thread I got a little bit worried.
I live in Romania, and I own a 360. The console is legally bought, the Gold subscription is legally payed for with a romania credit card, and everything is fine, with the exception of the country of residence (and the adress), which are all set in the UK, because my country isn't supported by Microsoft.

So, I'm a bit unclear about the nature of the restrictions imposed by MS, even after reading this thread. Do they apply ONLY for content such as movies and/or TV shows, or maybe videoclips and such, or for the ENTIRE Xbox Live Marketplace system ? By that, I'm asking if I will be able to download game demos, and trailers for these games after the spring update.
This is the only thing that interests me, as I find extremely restrictive to buy and download movies on my measly 20Gb drive, on the Xbox, and not be able to transfer it to my PC for storage. I only want the game demos, the trailers, and the ocasional downloadable content for various games which interest me.

Which way is it ?

Thanks in advance for the replies.

It's only for Movies and TV shows according to clarification by MS reps. Game demos, trailers, etc. will still be available.

 

[bkilian]

Illustrates another big problem with virtual media. Imagine you spent a few hundred $'s on TV shows/Movies, which you are supposed to OWN, and suddenly the company simply takes them away leaving you with no recourse. The 20gb HDD can't hold much content, so essentially anyone outside of the US that purchased content is screwed.

The problem is MS left the loophole open, and is now placing the responsibility on the consumer for the mistake. If you accidentally sell something in a store, that's the fault of the store, you don't drive to the person's house and take their property away.

Until crap like this stops people will always prefer physical formats.

Actually, you do. Let's say you show a fake ID (ie, open a US live account when you are not in the US), and buy a bottle of whiskey at the liquor store. The store has done it's due diligence in checking your ID. Now you walk outside and a passing cop checks you out and recognises you from a school talk he did a few weeks back, so he does a more thorough check and discovers your ID is fake, and takes away your whiskey. Do you expect the liquor store to pay you back for the alcohol you purchased under a pretense?

We can carry this comparison further, in most cases, the cop would go and complain to the store, and possibly fine them for selling to someone they shouldn't have. After that, the store would be more careful in future, right? Isn't that exactly what MS is doing?

Now if you want a direct comparison using this image, let's say that you ordered two bottles of whiskey over the internet (for pick up, like pizza, say) from this liquor store, clicked the box that said "I am over 21", and they charged your card. When you go to pick it up, they ask to see your ID, and then refuse to give you your alcohol when they find you're not over 21. They also have no requirement to refund your money, since you perjured yourself when ordering and paying.

That's pretty much what a person does when using this "loophole" that MS is now closing. MS has repeatedly said they don't support someone using an account outside of their region, they have repeatedly said that they might do something about it at some stage. You can't tell me a person didn't know they were perjuring themselves when buying content they weren't contractually allowed to buy, but now people are whining because MS finally closed the hole they've been saying from the beginning they didn't support and might close? Geez...

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Internet should be a marketplace of its own, untied to the geographical areas of the "old world". I know it's naive to say or hope something like that, but that's the way it should be, and everybody who opposes that (like the you're a thief! people in this thread) is considered to be an unpleasant person by me.

 

[AzBat]

Internet should be a marketplace of its own, untied to the geographical areas of the "old world". I know it's naive to say or hope something like that, but that's the way it should be, and everybody who opposes that (like the you're a thief! people in this thread) is considered to be an unpleasant person by me.

I'm not opposed, but realize that the Xbox Live service is not the Internet. It's to a closed network(requiring special hardware) that just so happens to use the Internet infrastructure to connect everybody. When you look at it that way it explains why the VoD content is being handled the way it is. A lot like the satellite TV industry. Just a different method of connecting the devices and content.

Tommy McClain

 

[Legend]

My cousin has this stupid problem with Playtstion Store. He cant buy anything online because he is from Greece. If he had a UK credit card he could.

I can personally confirm that any online enabled credit/debit card works fine with any PSN account anywhere in the world. if you have a card you use online for stores like amazon, you can use it with PSN.

I don't know if what you say was applied initially or has changed with some update, but this is the case now. tell your cousin to try again now.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Actually, you do. Let's say you show a fake ID (ie, open a US live account when you are not in the US), and buy a bottle of whiskey at the liquor store. The store has done it's due diligence in checking your ID. Now you walk outside and a passing cop checks you out and recognises you from a school talk he did a few weeks back, so he does a more thorough check and discovers your ID is fake, and takes away your whiskey. Do you expect the liquor store to pay you back for the alcohol you purchased under a pretense?

Though I agree with the analogy, I don't know about the legalities. Over here it's illegal to have a fake ID card, but it's not illegal to give false information on registering stuff. There's no 'thou shalt always tell the truth' law! Because the contracts entered into online aren't legally tenable, you can't break them, and so are under no obligation to furnish them with valid information (a requirement that stems from contract law, unlike the ID card thing that's federal/criminal law).

That would change the analogy to be going into a liquor store and buying a bottle of whiskey saying you're name's Fred Tinkerbottom when it isn't. If the cop then finds you're not really Fred Tinkerbottom, he can't take the drink off you - you paid for it and it's legally yours, no matter what information you gave the salesman.

Again, I don't know what the proper legal resolution would be. I think a refund is probably the correct thing. That would recognise that people should'nt have bought it, and MS shouldn't have sold it, and would reset everything to being proper - those without the content haven't lost anything by MS's mistake in letting them buy the stuff.

 

[pipo]

It's only for Movies and TV shows according to clarification by MS reps. Game demos, trailers, etc. will still be available.

Yup. Click the link posted earlier...

Anyway, people have their own responsibilities IMHO. The fact you don't read the small print is your own problem.

The way I see it this discussion is like saying there's a loophole in the law because I can actually steal a car when I'm not allowed to do so (or even better, I didn't know that!).

Somehow I don't think the judge will listen to my 'it shouldn't be possible in the first place' argument.

/case closed

 

[Rolf N]

Sure. DR in particular is a good example, since they aren't even publishing it.

Keep it up.

Gears Of War.
I win.
Keep it up.

I think it's mostly the fault of your government and the censorship laws in place in your country though. MS is just co-operating with your government.

The government doesn't actually prevent any game from being released and commercially available. Read that again:

So I can buy F.E.A.R. for the PC right now in a brick-and-mortar shop, or I can have it delivered to my doorstep from an online store. I can choose between a German release, a UK release and a US import, all legal and legit. I just need to be 18 or above, which I am.

Or try this:
http://www.okaysoft.de/ok/komplett.asp?TX=PS2DETAIL&INR=109416&OBAUF=AUF
(the shop unfortunately uses frames, but don't let that stop you)

 

[DuckThor Evil]

The government doesn't actually prevent any game from being released and commercially available.

Yet it's no coincident that MS hasn't released those games in Germany. The laws have encouraged MS to make that decision, I'm not saying that it's not their fault at all, but all of the blame can't be put on their shoulders.