X360 and Anti Aliasing?
- Thread starter RobHT
- Start date
RobHT said:
Can't picture that in my head. So to play them you'll have to look up? That's no good for my poor neck.Shifty Geezer said:
Which is why I predicated my assumption with the premise that the increased poly-power will be used to push more objects.
If you've seen the Kameo videos of the big battles you know what I mean: hundreds (if not more) of fairly detailed inidividual objects messing around on the screen. AA is going to make a big difference here.
Cheers
Gubbi
He's not 'trying to downplay it'; he's trying to understand it's benefits and whether they were worth the tradeoff with increased shader power. Questioning something's worth doesn't mean trying to present it in a negative way.fireshot said:
Mefisutoferesu
Regular
Smoke
SMOKE!!
Are you smoking yet!?!?!
Meh, not so funny in text. ;p I was wondering something though... looking at DOA4, it definately seems like the game is benefitting from some really nice AA, no? I don't recall noticing any Aliasing, so I'm wondering what level they're using. It'd be interesting information for judging AA on the 360. Also, how programable is the logic on the eDRAM? I was under the impression it was all fixed function, am I wrong? Or does the fixed function logic still allow DoF and MoBlur and so on to still be off loaded to the daughter die?
SMOKE!!
Are you smoking yet!?!?!
Meh, not so funny in text. ;p I was wondering something though... looking at DOA4, it definately seems like the game is benefitting from some really nice AA, no? I don't recall noticing any Aliasing, so I'm wondering what level they're using. It'd be interesting information for judging AA on the 360. Also, how programable is the logic on the eDRAM? I was under the impression it was all fixed function, am I wrong? Or does the fixed function logic still allow DoF and MoBlur and so on to still be off loaded to the daughter die?
scooby_dooby
Legend
london-boy said:
Seriously, what are you basing this on? Do you have big screen? Have you seen the amount of jaggies on a nice HDTV?? Before calling people geeks, I suggest you get some experience using HDTV's and play current Gen games on them, play around and you'll see many of your comments are completely off base.
There's way too many people in this thread saying AA is not necessary when they obviously have not played current gen games on a large screen HDTV. There is nothing MORE necessary than some solid AA.
The distance makes it unnesscesary?? Whhhaaa? HDTV's make jaggies much much much worse, and if you are sitting at the PROPER distance you will see every single jaggie and it looks like absolutle garbage. 3m????? Umm, if you're sitting 3 metres from your TV, I sure hop you have 70" TV because otherwise you're way to far back, and might as well be watching SDTV. For a 46" TV the proper view distance is 7feet, and trust me, that doesn't get rid of a single jaggie.
Also anyone who things some minor upscaling or downscaling to your TV's resolution is magically going to fix jaggies is not speaking from ANY kind of experience. These are HDTV's they retain all the details, and Jaggies stick out like a sore thumb. Downscaling or Upscaling a little bit doesn't make any difference.
With the said, games at 720p should be ok, but even some 720p games on the XBOX have Aliasing, though not nearly as bad as the lower res games it still exists.
To me, nothing ruins immersion in a game more than flickering, popping jaggies as I move the camera. I hope that ERPs right, and it's just a matter of them supporting tiling within their rendering engine, so that all dev's can implement 4xAA, that's the sweet spot, 4x.
Last edited by a moderator:
scooby_dooby said:
Uhm maybe before going crazy, you should read everything i've written on this thread.
scooby_dooby said:
After all that, you actually agree with me? I was really talking about 720p/1080i images.
And i made it clear that the problem is that 2xAA won't make a big difference. And also made it clear that from 4XAA up, the difference starts being noticeable.
I never said AA isn't needed.
You loon.
fireshot said:
Um, I'm not. Who are you by the way?
Rather, I was criticizing MS for their previous hyperbole, and indicating that all evidence points to the contrary of 'free' AA, unlike the original claims. Nothing ERP said and nothing I said stands in conflict. I am hardly 'downplaying' the eDRAM - I have extolled it's virtues on numerous occasions - but I am adding an asterisk to it nonetheless.
As in:
MS: "The eDRAM will provide developers with free anti-aliasing, and we are making use of this anti-aliasing mandatory for all 360 development." *
* - anti-aliasing is not actually free, and will not actually be required
scooby_dooby
Legend
Ya, but alot of your comments were pretty ridiculous, like minor upscaling would reduce jaggies(not based on any experience), or that the distance would make it negligible(if sitting the recommended distance you will see everything)
scooby_dooby said:
No. Some of my comments taken out of context sound ridiculous. Many things do in those cases.
scooby_dooby
Legend
xbdestroya said:
I was under the impression they had relaxed the restrictions for launch games.
And also that AA is still basically free, but it can't just be switched on and requires some support in the game engine therefore many first gen games that don't support it may take a larger than usual hit.
lb - the problem was you calling people geeks, and marginilizing their concerns when it was totally obvious you weren't speaking from experiences, in other words maybe leave the speculation about HDTV + jaggies to people who actually HAVE hdtv's and have used them
Last edited by a moderator:
scooby_dooby said:
I'm not under too different an impression from yourself - in fact if you read my first post in this thread, you'll see as much. (well, at least we agree on the first-gen thing)
However, from what I've heard turning on the AA equals *more* of a hit than previously thought, basically from zero to something other than zero, and it's true tweaking the tiling will likely improve things. But I'm not sure if there are any devs left who feel they will ever actually be able to get it to 'zero.'
Plus, I doubt that after relaxing the AA restrictions for launch Microsoft will ever go back. Why would they? Devs would prefer to be able to use the eDRAM however they like - and I'm sure Microsoft will come around to that way of thinking soon enough, if they haven't already.
Last edited by a moderator:
the later is what bothers me.
from ati, it is "free" with 2xaa, 5% hit with 4xaa. free and "free" are not the same in 3d hardware. You are smart enough to know which applies here, or you just chose not to.
The manner in which ERP replied puts him above your little nitpicking game.ERP said:
ms is bad when they are flexible?
heard from where?
I'll just address your 'post' in quick bullet-point form fireshot, to get on with things here.
* Your ATI 'free' thing... No, I have no idea what the difference between free and 'free' is. You claim I am smart enough, but I am afraid I am not. Could you please explan the differences between free and 'free' for me?
* ERP is replying from a different angle than I; he as a developer, I as someone who - though he likes the change - gets a shiver whenever he hears another 'this is how the world is' statement from MS. So, I'm pointing out their reverse in stance - and it *is* a reversal in stance. Neither of us is contradicting the other, as you yourself have I guess admitted, in a round-about way, so I'm not sure why you're quoting him.
* Bad when they are flexible? I guess you didn't read my posts... But no, it's good when they are flexible.
* I'm not going down the 'where I heard it from' road with you. I will simply say that I wouldn't have mentioned it whatsoever if the source wasn't one that would be considered 'credible.' But credible sources don't need to be raked over the coals in Internet forums. How about this: I heard it from ERP as well, and so did you.
* Your ATI 'free' thing... No, I have no idea what the difference between free and 'free' is. You claim I am smart enough, but I am afraid I am not. Could you please explan the differences between free and 'free' for me?
* ERP is replying from a different angle than I; he as a developer, I as someone who - though he likes the change - gets a shiver whenever he hears another 'this is how the world is' statement from MS. So, I'm pointing out their reverse in stance - and it *is* a reversal in stance. Neither of us is contradicting the other, as you yourself have I guess admitted, in a round-about way, so I'm not sure why you're quoting him.
* Bad when they are flexible? I guess you didn't read my posts... But no, it's good when they are flexible.
* I'm not going down the 'where I heard it from' road with you. I will simply say that I wouldn't have mentioned it whatsoever if the source wasn't one that would be considered 'credible.' But credible sources don't need to be raked over the coals in Internet forums. How about this: I heard it from ERP as well, and so did you.
Last edited by a moderator:
*nothing is free in 3d. ms refers to the "free" aa of xenos relative to normal framebuffer.
*ERP tries to reason out the root of this issue while you nitpick on hyperbole and add your own.
*see above. i find a waste of time going around hyperbole meant as marketing.
*the mysterious source! if you dont tell, how the hell do you expect us to know?
*ERP tries to reason out the root of this issue while you nitpick on hyperbole and add your own.
*see above. i find a waste of time going around hyperbole meant as marketing.
*the mysterious source! if you dont tell, how the hell do you expect us to know?
I play games on my TV just about every day, and the jaggies without AA are quite obvious even when running PC games at 1080p. 720p shows the jaggies even worse as one would expect and while x2aa obviously doesn't clear everything up, it does make a respectable difference. I am speaking in terms of sitting about 8' away from a 42" ED plasma here as well, so for people sitting closer to recommended viewing distance and running HD displays the jaggies will be even more blatant and a little AA would be even more beneficial. Granted, how much ailasing will stand out does depend on ones eyesight; but I have to wonder if the people here saying AA isn't necessary or wouldn't help are just guessing without seeing it first or what? I also have to wonder how many people in this thread know what differences to look for with modren AA, being a forum on a 3d hardware site I wouldn't normally expect that to be an issue but no one pointed out the flay in Shifty's argument here:
That is because textures don't get touched by MSAA but rather it smoothes out the jaggies on the edges of polygons. Some good anisotropic filtering should help the texture ailasing.
Regardless, I'd image the deal is that x2aa is still essentially free on the 360's graphics hardware, but developers are finding other uses for that *free* power and opting to use that part of the hardware for framebuffer effects and other things instead of AA. I think it would be nice for at least a bit of AA to be standard in all games and I am disappointed in MS for misleading us to belive this would be the case with the 360. However, If developers feel the hardware can be better applied to other things I think they should be free to explore those possibilities and simply rendering at 1280x720 is going to be a big step up for most people anyway.
Also, Scooby, while I just disagreed with most of what LB has said here, he was right about upscaling reducing jaggies; at least with good scaling hardware a bit of upscaling does help smooth out the ailasing due to the resampling and noise reduction filters built into the hardware.
Shifty Geezer said:
That is because textures don't get touched by MSAA but rather it smoothes out the jaggies on the edges of polygons. Some good anisotropic filtering should help the texture ailasing.
Regardless, I'd image the deal is that x2aa is still essentially free on the 360's graphics hardware, but developers are finding other uses for that *free* power and opting to use that part of the hardware for framebuffer effects and other things instead of AA. I think it would be nice for at least a bit of AA to be standard in all games and I am disappointed in MS for misleading us to belive this would be the case with the 360. However, If developers feel the hardware can be better applied to other things I think they should be free to explore those possibilities and simply rendering at 1280x720 is going to be a big step up for most people anyway.
Also, Scooby, while I just disagreed with most of what LB has said here, he was right about upscaling reducing jaggies; at least with good scaling hardware a bit of upscaling does help smooth out the ailasing due to the resampling and noise reduction filters built into the hardware.
