Wii U 'Has A Horrible, Slow CPU' Says Metro Last Light Dev

[liolio]

I thought I had linked to this article, with an identical section on Bluegene Q.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_A2

Well A2 is only a core afterall, and two processors use it. PowerEN (made for high traffic networking and combining router/web frontend loads) and Bluegene/Q.
The first one debuted in early 2010.

I take your word that you get better latency hiding with the four way SMT and stuff. I didn't necessarily disagree with you about the high latency.
Just it seems to me Wii U CPU maybe is closer to A2 than Broadway, at least utilizing a lot of its tech (cache hierarchy is significant stuff) even though it may be some kind of a stop-gap chip, and yes retrofitting what looks like 3Dnow! to a modern design is probably not a big deal. Gecko/Broadway itself was adding a SIMD to an existing design.

Well from the noise surrounding the system, I would say that the CPU seems to have more in common with the PPC 47x lines than with the Power A2.
In all the power A2 implementation I am aware of the L2 is shared among the cores as in Xenon.
Expresso has 2MB for one cores, and 2x 512KB if rumors are correct.
The power A2 is IO, the ppc 47x is OoO. Single thread performance for a power a2 clocked at the same speed as Expresso would be dreadful. Imagine a Xenon running at ~1/3 the clock speed and remember the comment about about the celeron in the xbox @700MHz offered better single thread performances than Xenon.
The power A2 has wide SIMD and can do 8 DP FLOPS per cycle ( I wonder if it can do 16 SP FLOPS per cycle though?). PPC 47x and rumors about an enhanced broadway got a paired FPU.
I don't think they have anything in common or I missed some leaks at some point.

---------------
By the way I'm completely disappointed with what seems to be the clock speed Nintendo choose if rumors are are right, 1.2GHz, really? I mean even a PPC 47x at full speed (or IBM recommended speed ie 1.6 GHz) was too enthusiastic, I'm close to being bitter...
And then they are championing are good their cooling system is and all the efforts they made, when games pulls 33Watts... at the plug! That is a bad joke, my laptop embark both a A8-3850M and a redwood+gddr5 and it is luckily flatter than the WiiU, I haven't heard HP or any other laptop manufacturers by the way championing the fact that they can fit a x< 30 Watts chip in a tiny enclosure, not exactly an achievement.

So I'm curious, when exactly does the design become too old to use? Not in 2006, but in 2012? If you're going to tell me Broadway is too old then I'm going to counter with BlueGene/Q being too new; a chip that debuted in 2012 being used as the CPU in a 2012 Nintendo console is reality bending. This is the company that used ARM11s in their 2011 handheld.

That was hilarious, thanks. good spirit

 

[TheLump]

The point is, you started off by saying the 720 isn't going to have significantly better graphics or a generational leap in visuals over the Wii U, later you changed that to 'it won't be as pronounced as from last gen to this gen" which is true, but not quite the same as your earlier position (otherwise why did I start arguing with you in the first instance).




I can only find this recent post where you say that: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1681208#post1681208

In fact, it must be a position you've taken up quite recently, since just previously you attempted to spin the DF ME3 face-off feature as countering the comments of the Metro devs:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1681067&postcount=113



Until Brit and Arwin explained that the article didn't show any such thing:





But otherwise, great, glad you agree they gimped it with the CPU.



Well it's not just me, RancidLunchmeat seems to think so too (and i'm sure, others too).

Your position is very different to someone like Grall for instance, who was also clearly looking forward to the Wii U and is now (quite understandably) disappointed by Nintendo's ineptness.

You come across as if you believe that any questionable decision made by Nintendo or non-feature of the Wii U, must have some benefit to it and seem to go to great lengths to suggest what these 'benefits' may be or construct unlikely scenarios where they might become actual.

Sounds like crossed wires to me.

I haven't really changed my position on it at all, i can assure you. However I've come accross.

I didn't "try and spin" the ME3 article to make the CPU look good - I just pointed put that its interesting is all and that it might shed some light on the cpu situation. It obviously isn't completely useless, otherwise it we'd have seen worse results - I thought. If that's wrong, that's fine. That's why I asked.


Apologies if I came accross as rude or anything - I just felt as if I was being a bit typecast just because I wasn't decrying the wiiu in every way.

And RancidLunchmeat: I'm a PC/PS3 gamer right now annd will be buying wiiu and most likely a ps4.

 

[Platon]

So many YEARS they've had to work on this system, what on earth have they been doing?

I have the same question. It is almost as if they though the Wii would be selling like gangbusters for all eternity. A bit like in fairy tales, the "lived happily ever after" thing. When the sales went down like from a cliff then they realised they needed to do something.

The design of the system feels like they scraped the bottom of the barrel, took the absolutely cheapest components out there and put them in the system as fast as possible. The only reason that it is not even weaker is that there are not any chips in mass production that are weaker. To make it weaker it would probably be actually more expensive. I know this is a hyperbole and yadda yadda but I can't get away from that feeling.

Maybe what did surprise them was the rate at which the Wii stopped selling and they felt they needed to act long before they had intended to, I don't know.

I just cant believe the same company that brought the gamecube, which was brilliantly designed piece of hardware, came up with Wii U...

I agree with this. Never had a gamecube, but I did appreciate its design (hardware not some much the aesthetics).

Kind of an ironic thing to say if Wii U's CPU really is a not-very-heavily-modified Broadway core (much like Wii's CPU/GPU were a minor update of Gamecube's) Seems like Nintendo's problem would be that they can't move away from Gamecube's design..

I took more the quote as Nintendo being capable of comming up with a new design for a console that is balanced, efficient with good performance and relatively cheap. Now that they have been recycling parts of the GC for 3 generations, one can see it as they can't move away from the GC design, or that they can't be bother to come up with new designs as they did for the GC...

 

[kalelovil]

Are Nintendo sacrificing system and gaming performance just to benefit the power consumption of the Wii-U. Is this a result of that minuscule per watt usage?

Even if their focus was on maintaining low power consumption and a small form factor, they could have done considerably better and probably at a lower cost by just asking AMD to license to/produce for them a Trinity based design.

Even a laptop utilising the top mobile bin A10-4600m only uses 11W at idle and 62W peak CPU+GPU load, and that includes the screen, south bridge with USB3 and SATA3, and miscellaneous componentry which the Wii U does not have.
http://hothardware.com/Reviews/AMD-Trinity-A104600M-Processor-Review/?page=12

Given the relative success of the unofficial Dolphin emulator and the anemic hardware in the Wii, Nintendo would not face too much difficulty in getting a Wii U using a A10-4600m-like APU to run most Wii titles using software emulation.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

The short battery lifetime of the controller is another issue that defies understanding. It won't even last for a day's worth of gaming...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

DF were getting around 3.5 hours IIRC. Add in that typical lithium batteries can halve their storable charge every 500 recharges or so and this thing will need constant recharging, and you'll get all of 2 hours use after a year. It doesn't have the range to game anywhere or be used as a tablet is, so it's effectively tied to the console. May as well have gone with a wired controller, or attached PSU to plug the controller directly into the mains.

 

[TheLump]

The short battery lifetime of the controller is another issue that defies understanding. It won't even last for a day's worth of gaming...

Yeah thats just boneheaded of them. They made the compartment in the back big enough for a bigger battery, so why not just include it? Just seems like they're being cheap or decided at the last minute it was too heavy or something but thought they'd better leave the compartmnent big enough for future.

DF were getting around 3.5 hours IIRC. Add in that typical lithium batteries can halve their storable charge every 500 recharges or so and this thing will need constant recharging, and you'll get all of 2 hours use after a year. It doesn't have the range to game anywhere or be used as a tablet is, so it's effectively tied to the console. May as well have gone with a wired controller, or attached PSU to plug the controller directly into the mains.

Someone did a handy chart on GAF about the battery depletion. Its not quite halved after a year (thats a very worst case scenario with Li batteries) but it will probably be reduced considerably in 2 years and you'll likely need a replacement battery.

I bet it was a struggle enough for Nintendo not to use AA batteries given they never released a rechargable Wiimote, so they probably thought "theres no problem with having to buy batteries after 2 years, it'll be fine!"

There is a problem though. No one (normally) replaces batteries in tablets or phones etc, so they'll be pi$$ed when they have to do it in their WiiU.

Re: the range, I've read soooo many contrasting views on this. Some people can get it to work on a different floor or oppotise end of their house, some can't even make it stretch their entire living room. Either there's some dodgy units out there (wouldn't be surprising at this point) or it is very susceptable to environmental factors like what your walls are made of or what other equipment might be interferring with the signal. Thats the only way you can explain the differences in range people are experiencing.

 

[Arwin]

Yeah, it's a bit surprising.

But at least you can still play while it's plugged in for recharging, apparently.

And it's not like the 3DS lasts any longer either.

 

[TheLump]

THQ guy clarifies 4A guys comments on the CPU being "Horrible, Slow":

http://www.videogamer.com/news/thq_clarifies_wii_u_horrible_cpu_comment.html

First he giveth:

"I think there was one comment made by Oles the programmer - the guy who built the engine. It's a very CPU intensive game. I think it's been verified by plenty of other sources, including your own Digital Foundry guys, that the CPU on Wii U on the face of it isn't as fast as some of the other consoles out there. Lots of developers are finding ways to get around that because of other interesting parts of the platform.

"I think that what frustrates me about the way the story's been spun out is that there's been no opportunity to say, 'Well, yes, on that one individual piece maybe it's not as... maybe his opinion is that it's not as easy for the way that the 4A engine's been built as is the others.

Then he sort of taketh away:

"What it doesn't go on to look at is to say that, you know, we could probably get around that. We could probably get Metro to run on an iPad if we wanted, or on pretty much anything. Just as in the same way that between PC and current console versions there are some compromises that need to be made in certain places and we strive to get the very best performance that we can from any platform we release on."

Then he moans about the press for spamming the story to get clicks.

Then he gets to the main problem; that 4A dont have the time or resources to do a WiiU version. Which is what they already said ages ago I beleive.

"We genuinely looked at what it would take to bring the game to Wii U," It's certainly possible, and it's something we thought we'd like to do. The reality is that would mean a dedicated team, dedicated time and effort, and it would either result in a detriment to what we're trying to focus on, already adding a PlayStation 3 SKU, or we probably wouldn't be able to do the Wii U version the justice that we'd want.

"It would be a port or we wouldn't be able to get to grips with the system. That's really the essence of it. It's something we can potentially look at and return to later. Given the targets we've set for the game, it didn't make sense to proceed with it at this point."

OT, but "Oles the Programmer" sounds like an awesome comic.

 

[TheD]

I would trust the programmer over the PR guy doing damage control.

 

[TheLump]

I would trust the programmer over the PR guy doing damage control.

He is doing damage control, yes. And the programmer obviously knows way more about the subject.

They are still saying the same thing, basically: The CPU stinks compared to 360/PS3, they could probably work around that but they dont have the time or resources.

The first guy was just more blunt about it, the PR guy is trying to be nice about it.


On a side note, I was thinking yesterday that what if Nintendo were hypothetically this "mystery buyer" for THQ. I imagined we'd see THQ very quickly try and cover up the 4A guys comments *


*not impliying thats the cae, the thought just made me laugh:

"We're pleased to announce our partnership with Nintendo"
"You just said the console sucks a**"
"That was....taken out of context"

 

[Platon]

The short battery lifetime of the controller is another issue that defies understanding. It won't even last for a day's worth of gaming...

Might try and make some extra $$$ a bit down the line by selling some battery size XL or something...

 

[TheLump]

Might try and make some extra $$$ a bit down the line by selling some battery size XL or something...

£20 says it will be called "BatteriiPlus"

 

[Arwin]

£20 says it will be called "BatteriiPlus"

I'll take that money. They'll probably release a completely new version of the controller at some point, with a multi-touch display, better battery life, and call it Wii U GamePad Plus

 

[TheLump]

I'll take that money. They'll probably release a completely new version of the controller at some point, with a multi-touch display, better battery life, and call it Wii U GamePad Plus

Deal

In all seriousness, I've heard a few people who think the same; that they'll release a better version of the 'Pad down the line. Do you think this will be possible though? Things like adding a better battery maybe, but improving the screen would run the risk of fracturing their userbase. It wouldn't quite be the same situation as WiiMotion Plus as they solved that by making a peripheral which would turn old Wiimotes into Motion plus, or even bundled a new Wiimote+ with games which required it. I dont think they could do that with the 'Pad if they improved anything too substantial.

 

[Strange]

I'll take that money. They'll probably release a completely new version of the controller at some point, with a multi-touch display, better battery life, and call it Wii U GamePad Plus

Nah, multi-touch is out the discussion I think.

Judging from past experience they'll probably make two more versions:
A WiiU GamePad lite with a smaller screen and worse battery life
A WiiU GamePad LL which with a 30% larger screen with somewhat better battery life but heavy as hell.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Someone did a handy chart on GAF about the battery depletion. Its not quite halved after a year

Probably not, but that 3.5 hours won't be what you're getting by the end of the first year, and the less power the battery holds, the more you need to recharge it which degrades it further. I can't see it lasting 2 years unless you run the thing mostly from connected pwoer.

They are still saying the same thing, basically: The CPU stinks compared to 360/PS3, they could probably work around that but they dont have the time or resources.

Not quite. The PR guy says they could get the game on iPad. Clearly that'd be a reworking of the game rather than a port of the PCS360 version. And you can get any game onto platform - just look at all the 16 bit games that got ports to the ZX Spectrum (Timex 2000). Technically they're the same game, but they were never really the same game. Metro on Wii U would need an engine overhaul and work differently to fit the architecture, which may mean significant compromises that mean it isn't quite the same game. Think...GT5 on Wii. Cut back the graphics and physics to PS2 level and you have 'GT5' only it isn't. There's nothing from this Metro talk to suggest Wii U has the capability to run Metro to the same standard as the other platforms. Perhaps there are GPGPU resources that could help, but that's extremely unlikely and certainly not something that can be believed from the PR damage control.

 

[TheLump]

Probably not, but that 3.5 hours won't be what you're getting by the end of the first year, and the less power the battery holds, the more you need to recharge it which degrades it further. I can't see it lasting 2 years unless you run the thing mostly from connected pwoer.

Fair point. The 3.5 is the lowest I've heard too. Isn't 5 hours also a reported number?**(still not good, but better I suppose)

**edit: nope it isn't. That's just the high end of Nintendos quoted battery life. 3.5 seems to be the real world max though. Sorry!

Not quite. The PR guy says they could get the game on iPad. Clearly that'd be a reworking of the game rather than a port of the PCS360 version. And you can get any game onto platform - just look at all the 16 bit games that got ports to the ZX Spectrum (Timex 2000). Technically they're the same game, but they were never really the same game. Metro on Wii U would need an engine overhaul and work differently to fit the architecture, which may mean significant compromises that mean it isn't quite the same game. Think...GT5 on Wii. Cut back the graphics and physics to PS2 level and you have 'GT5' only it isn't. There's nothing from this Metro talk to suggest Wii U has the capability to run Metro to the same standard as the other platforms. Perhaps there are GPGPU resources that could help, but that's extremely unlikely and certainly not something that can be believed from the PR damage control.

Just pointing out that they said the same thing but with two different spins: "we could probably get it running, but we'd have to work around the weak sauce cpu" was the bottom line each time though. I'm not going to pretend to know what that "workaround" would entail though.

 

[BRiT]

I have not heard of any times outside the 3.5 hour range for the Wuublet. Do you have any links to the 5 hour battery life claims that is not the Wii U marketing material?

 

[TheLump]

I have not heard of any times outside the 3.5 hour range for the Wuublet. Do you have any links to the 5 hour battery life claims that is not the Wii U marketing material?

On further investigation, you are correct. That was just the quoted number from Nintendo. I've seen it thrown around on forums, but looks like that was just based on PR material too. Sorry!