Wii U hardware discussion and investigation *rename

[Shifty Geezer]

Why are you so obsessed that everything has to be about games?

I don't understand what you're saying. That Wuu will appeal due to non-games and super-high-power will be important for that? The argument for high-power is solely driven by gaming, pretty much the most demanding application any consumer computing hardware can be turned to. If Nintendo aren't looking at making a big ticket of their games then having a smaller GPU is even easier for their customers to swallow. Although good luck selling people on an iPad-type tablet experience that needs a base station to work.

 

[TheChefO]

Except the experience will be different - you won't be able to play Mario Galaxies Evolved on iAnything, and people may be willing to spend $60 a pop for that game en masse even if it looks marginally better than what they are seeing on PS360 now. Graphics hardware alone does not make the experience and does not define the value of the system to consumers.

Not business sense (business sense wouldn't question the validity in a bare-minimium performance target), but a lack of faith in the tablet. That lack of faith may be justified, but if the tablet proves to be the Next Big Thing in gaming, Nintendo will be laughing all the way to the bank again, with more cash the cheaper their hardware gets. Hence the logic that some refute in targeting lower performance.

It isn't about lack of faith in the tablet.

The tablet interface isn't an issue in and of itself. ipad proves this with every quarterly result. The problem is the direct comparisons it will inevitably draw, and the weaknesses on which their new console will be exposed on.

It's like an ipad, but not portable outside the house, and can't get the apps from the app store, and can't get itunes, can't play half the media library, oh and the games are about ten times as much money.

Nevermind the fact that like you said, tablet growth is exploding.

By the end of this year with ipad3 hitting the shelves soon, I can only imagine how many IOS, Android, and win8 tablets and mini tablets will be in peoples homes and on offer.

Trying to sell in that light is beyond foolish for Nintendo, considering their background.

But yes, you are correct, nobody else will have Mario.
Then again, at one time there was only one place to get Sonic too...

As my sig points out, things change.

 

[TheChefO]

...good luck selling people on an iPad-type tablet experience that needs a base station to work.

Exactly.

...and all the other goodies on offer from IOS that do not exist in Nintendo land.

 

[Kaotik]

I don't understand what you're saying. That Wuu will appeal due to non-games and super-high-power will be important for that? The argument for high-power is solely driven by gaming, pretty much the most demanding application any consumer computing hardware can be turned to. If Nintendo aren't looking at making a big ticket of their games then having a smaller GPU is even easier for their customers to swallow. Although good luck selling people on an iPad-type tablet experience that needs a base station to work.

It wasn't meant for you, I just had the reply window forgotten open for ages

The reply was meant for TheChefO's comment on the new sensor - not everything in the console have to be meant just for games, or for games at all.

 

[function]

Exactly.

...and all the other goodies on offer from IOS that do not exist in Nintendo land.

You unquoted all the context. As Shifty points out in the rest of his post that's not what Nintendo doing - they *are* going to make a big deal out of their games.

An iPad doesn't do the same thing that the Wu will. It may be that people don't want what Nintendo are offering, but what Nintendo are offering is not an iPad. What Nintendo are offering will work or not work with a degree of independence from raw hardware performance.

 

[TheChefO]

The reply was meant for TheChefO's comment on the new sensor - not everything in the console have to be meant just for games, or for games at all.

I will say Nintendo made a nice little run there for a while with Wii-fit in going outside traditional gaming uses, but that fitness venture has been brought to its logical conclusion in Kinect.

For the rest of the console+ experience, I'm not seeing Nintendo really picking up the ball here and running with it. They can't even keep up with Sony and MS on the gaming+ services.

But it's good to know they are researching ways to find out what season it is and let us know what the weather will be.

 

[TheChefO]

You unquoted all the context. As Shifty points out in the rest of his post that's not what Nintendo doing - they *are* going to make a big deal out of their games.

An iPad doesn't do the same thing that the Wu will. It may be that people don't want what Nintendo are offering, but what Nintendo are offering is not an iPad. What Nintendo are offering will work or not work with a degree of independence from raw hardware performance.

Yeah it's really boiling down to their games (not interface, nor spec ), and as I said, at one time, there was only one place to get Sonic and AM2 games too...

 

[Blazkowicz]

do tablets really get into every home? besides some cheap low end android it's an expense you have to justify. if so, are they really shared or more personal stuff? do they even support user accounts, as even win9x did in a limited form? with the added caveat of the small flash drive.

but yes, it's all about the games. phone/tablet games mostly are modern flash games, and/or have lousy controls or the difficulty is based on those very lousy controls. I had the displeasure of "gaming" a bit on a shiny windows phone phone, and it was inferior to a 1989 game boy.

people technical or not will notice the vast difference in game quality and complexity and how a stick or cross is better to move your character.

 

[TheChefO]

do tablets really get into every home? besides some cheap low end android it's an expense you have to justify. if so, are they really shared or more personal stuff? do they even support user accounts, as even win9x did in a limited form? with the added caveat of the small flash drive.

but yes, it's all about the games. phone/tablet games mostly are modern flash games, and/or have lousy controls or the difficulty is based on those very lousy controls. I had the displeasure of "gaming" a bit on a shiny windows phone phone, and it was inferior to a 1989 game boy.

people technical or not will notice the vast difference in game quality and complexity and how a stick or cross is better to move your character.

It's not just tablets, it's smart phones and tab-lite experiences like ipod touch. And yes, they really are selling gangbusters.

For the games angle, it depends on who that audience is and what that game experience is expected to be. For the past 6 years, Nintendo has cultivated a casual image and lured those looking for that casual experience.

Now with the surge in devices which offer a casual gaming experience (along with many other functions) and offer those casual gaming experiences at prices 1/10th what Nintendo charges and it becomes a much more difficult proposition to sell. Mario or not.

For those wanting a richer experience, PS3 and xb360 (with motion controls) are on offer as well.

And for those dead set on Mario, the Gamecube audience would suggest that audience is about 20m.

 

[Kaotik]

I will say Nintendo made a nice little run there for a while with Wii-fit in going outside traditional gaming uses, but that fitness venture has been brought to its logical conclusion in Kinect.

For the rest of the console+ experience, I'm not seeing Nintendo really picking up the ball here and running with it. They can't even keep up with Sony and MS on the gaming+ services.

But it's good to know they are researching ways to find out what season it is and let us know what the weather will be.

Well, people do actually buy separate "clock-weather-thingys" which show the temp, weather etc, so considering the sensor(s) probably don't cost much, adding it to the tablet can have its uses for similar purposes as those.

And it could actually give quite unique features for games too - think about the possibility of having a game where weather is actually dynamic and based on the weather of your actual location?

You start playing on some sunny day, in a sunny game, and suddenly a thunderstorm appears not only in real life, but in the game too?
Or you play at winter, and it's winter in the game too?

Littlest things can do miracles

 

[Brad Grenz]

Well, people do actually buy separate "clock-weather-thingys" which show the temp, weather etc, so considering the sensor(s) probably don't cost much, adding it to the tablet can have its uses for similar purposes as those.

And it could actually give quite unique features for games too - think about the possibility of having a game where weather is actually dynamic and based on the weather of your actual location?

You start playing on some sunny day, in a sunny game, and suddenly a thunderstorm appears not only in real life, but in the game too?
Or you play at winter, and it's winter in the game too?

Littlest things can do miracles

Why does that require a sensor? Why not just tie in to existing internet-based weather services like those used by Windows gadgets, iOS, etc? If it's in the controller, all it tells you is the conditions in the room. How variable is that going to be? Are we going to have to mount a sensor on the exterior of our house in addition to the sensor bar on our TV? Seems silly when it should just be internet and location aware...

 

[TheChefO]

Seems silly when it should just be internet and location aware...

This.

The Vitality Sensor was a brillant idea. The concept might be a little abstract and hard to grasp without any examples, but I'm sure some developers could do magical things with the input the sensor provides. The only problem was the implementation - you simply can't use the clip in a addition to a regular controller. But if Nintendo manages to integrate the sensor in a regular pad, it could open some amazing possibilities.

It was a futile attempt to sell more plastic.

Heart-rate via a wired finger clip. Why? To see how all that wii flailing is working at keeping up the heart rate? It certainly isn't for gauging emotional engagement on devices which for all intents fail to engage the user due to pathetic spec which detracts from the experience.

Going forward, perhaps it will be integrated to the WiiU, but again, I don't expect a strong support from Developers to track heart rates and do anything meaningful with it.



All this periphery just so Nintendo can try and avoid comparisons with true nextgen consoles when the solution is rather simple and not all that costly. Just put a decent freakin' GPU in the box. 120mm2 won't break the bank.

 

[Legendary]

This.



It was a futile attempt to sell more plastic.

Heart-rate via a wired finger clip. Why? To see how all that wii flailing is working at keeping up the heart rate? It certainly isn't for gauging emotional engagement on devices which for all intents fail to engage the user due to pathetic spec which detracts from the experience.

Valve seem pretty keen on Biometric gameplay and since we all know Valve is superior to all other third parties, that is enough.:smile:

This.



Going forward, perhaps it will be integrated to the WiiU, but again, I don't expect a strong support from Developers to track heart rates and do anything meaningful with it.

True, it would be up to the more creative devs to take real advantage of it.

All this periphery just so Nintendo can try and avoid comparisons with true nextgen consoles when the solution is rather simple and not all that costly. Just put a decent freakin' GPU in the box. 120mm2 won't break the bank.

For you and other enthusiasts such as yourself the solution is simple, just more power and preferably the same controller. You don't really care much about price.

For the mass market and many other gamers, we appreciate new ways to play and interact with games, that's a big part of being 'true' next gen. We like not having consoles that are so similar you can hardly tell the difference.

All Nintendo needs to do is be powerful enough to get good next gen ports, have a good online system and do it all at a good price.

 

[Legendary]

^
Great post!

 

[dlm]

I agree that biometrics is a potentially interesting idea.

I'm not convinced that heartrate alone is sufficient to tell you anything meaningful about player response. Every time someone gets up to go make a sandwich is screws up your data. You can't tell the difference between any number of things that can elevate heartrate (excitement, fear, frustration? You have no way to know!)

It's going to tell you at best that your jump scare is a jump scare. Great? I don't understand how that data is any more valuable than a playtest where you can actually *see* how people react to things.


Regardless, I find it enormously unlikely that Nintendo even *considered* any of those sorts of applications before announcing the thing. It sure seems to me that they just wanted it to be a Wii-Fit add-on that you could use to track your pulse and blood oxygen while working out and they figured that people would eat it up because they were pushing crap tons of Wii Fit at the time.

Once upon a time, I believed that Nintendo really knew what they were doing. Now it just seems increasingly like they just throw together whatever comes to mind as cheaply as possible so they can see what sticks and how much plastic crap they can sell you.

The DS and the Wii were both pretty innovative relative to the device market at the time. Meanwhile, the 3DS was just an attempt to jump on the 3D bandwagon and the WiiU is an attempt to jump on the tablet bandwagon. I find it hard to attribute any "grand schemes" to anything Nintendo does at this point.

 

[Blazkowicz]

there aren't many tablets with game controls and if there are you may have trouble finding a good game library that fits with it, besides loading it up with emulators for old consoles.

it's also consistent with other nintendo consoles. it's a DS where you hold a bigger bottom screen with better controls in your hand, and where the top screen is the living room's TV.
so I think the concept is simple enough and interesting enough.

 

[Blazkowicz]

It was a great idea. It was a silly implementation. Clipping some crap on your finger was never going to take off.

that feels like a one-off silly peripheral from the Atari VCS 2600 or NES era

 

[function]

I agree that biometrics is a potentially interesting idea.

I'm not convinced that heartrate alone is sufficient to tell you anything meaningful about player response. Every time someone gets up to go make a sandwich is screws up your data. You can't tell the difference between any number of things that can elevate heartrate (excitement, fear, frustration? You have no way to know!)

This is true, but as you'd know the exact point in the game where things happened you could narrow things down. Things like success or failure, dying, winning, watching a cutscene, turning left or turning right, which spawn wave had just been triggered, which music was playing would be known quantities (as would be if the player was away and not providing inputs!). It's just another stream of data. The more the merrier.

It's going to tell you at best that your jump scare is a jump scare. Great? I don't understand how that data is any more valuable than a playtest where you can actually *see* how people react to things.

It would be additional data to add to current testing results. Watching people is boring, tiring, time consuming and unless you're skilled you aren't going to be able to tell a great deal. Questionnaires are a pretty low resolution way to get feedback on something that's packed with thousands or tens of thousands of potentially complex events.

There are already analytical testing tools used for things like Left for Dead and Halo, and something like Mass Effect 2 gathered player stats on choices made, completion percentages and probably lots of other stuff (attempts needed, weapons used, which character was the most boneable?) and it's all just more information for the mix.

 

[function]

there aren't many tablets with game controls and if there are you may have trouble finding a good game library that fits with it, besides loading it up with emulators for old consoles.

it's also consistent with other nintendo consoles. it's a DS where you hold a bigger bottom screen with better controls in your hand, and where the top screen is the living room's TV.
so I think the concept is simple enough and interesting enough.

That's a good point. WiiU is sort-of a DS with two analogue sticks and a TV for the main screen.

Touch screen only controls absolutely suck for lots of stuff. My fingers do not have pixel accuracy (barely have screen accuracy) and - unbelievably - aren't transparent. Virtual thumbsticks make me hate life.

 

[TheChefO]

If you want to limit things to "gaming as it currently stands" then it'd probably have about the same impact as "waggle" on gaming as it stood in the PS2 era. If you build in a condition of nothing being different then I guess no, nothing would be different.



Maybe, maybe not. You find out by making it available and seeing what gets done. Getting physiological data from millions of players and plotting it against specific in game events would give you fantastic information as a game designer, if nothing else. A university would kill for that kind of data. Changing in game variables (colours, behavioural states, difficulty) or triggering events that you know (normally) have a specific effect on players of various "types" could all be done on a more user specified level. Just thinking about it for literally a few seconds already give you more things than you could try and test in a year.



It was a great idea. It was a silly implementation. Clipping some crap on your finger was never going to take off.



Things like heart rate, perspiration, eye dilation, voice stress are all ways to get an understanding of how the experience you've made is affecting people and getting some direct information is always better than inferring everything. If it could be useful for full immersion VR then it could be useful elsewhere.

It's definitely a good idea. Definitely. Absolutely. Now might not be its time, that's all.

A good idea for providing more input to advance the gaming medium? Sure, advancing the medium is always a good thing. However, are we really under the impression that Nintendo is providing meaningful leadership for this industry?

Seriously?

If Sony were implementing it, it would be a different story. They actually do intend to push the medium forward and have done so in the past. Same for MS (though less as a leader and more as a competitor for leadership).

Nintendo at this point are simply trying to figure out a way to survive and stay as profitable as possible.

If that means selling a clip on a finger, great. If it means selling a plastic balance board, great. If it means selling a gamecube with a wiimote (and accessory analog plastic dongle), great.

And see the full list of other plastic goodie add-ons.

But when it comes down to fundamentally improving the interactive medium, Nintendo aren't interested.

It's sad how far they've fallen since their Silicon Graphics partnership trajectory. At one point (not that long ago) Nintendo was a pioneer, not just a profiteer.