Wii U hardware discussion and investigation *rename

[liolio]

Yes! I've thought the same thing myself. There are a few systems you could make with a Jaguar and GDDR5 base (iirc Jaguar mem controller can handle GDDR5 ... or maybe that was just Kaveri?).

I know Nintendo didn't want to wait in launching, but early 2013 could have seen them with an almost passive Wii U level system - say 1 gHz 4 core with 550 mHz GPU - or they could have gone balls out and put in a 2.05 gHz CPU and 1 gHz GPU, with 2GB of 44 GB/s GDDR5 + 1 GB DDR3 hanging off a little bus to use a disk cache.

Obviously wouldn't have fit with the goals of BC and using familiar CPU cores, but would have kicked the socks off PS36U.

Yes it still amazes me how far the technology has evolved.
I read again the Anandtech review of Kabini and noticed something that did not caught my attention in the first place, in one benchmark, the T-rex openGL benchmark, the 500Mhz 2 CUs / 4 ROPS HD 8830 tops significantly the GeForce 7900GTX. They went on say that the bench is pretty optimized for unified architectures and not bandwidth limited. RSX is mostly a 7800/7900 GTX with half the ROPS disabled and a 128 bit bus. I searched for more benchmarks but could not find any serious analysis of the HD 8830 performances.

It is interesting to build something "upon" the ps360 vs trying to fit a mid/high end PC within a constrains of a console. I don't expect Nintendo to do it right, sadly I expect Nintendo to have something ready when commodity hardware shows its fangs.

 

[Grall]

I not sure where you hear that, but I don't work for AMD (and never have).

Sorry, my bad! I must have confused your user name with one of the forum's (roughly 2, AFAIK) AMD people. Yay me.

2) An emphasis on low power consumption, pushing size and noise levels beyond useful diminishing returns, to the substantial detriment of performance

The really sad part here is that wuu isn't even a quiet console. PS4, which has easily five times the raw performance, is quieter. The tiny, high-speed fan wuu uses has a very sharp whining tone to it, and the rapid, constantly spinning BR disc - the drive of which isn't rubber grommeted to the chassis - also contributes a lot of noise. Again not a problem in other consoles since they run the game off HDDs which are virtually silent.

So the size of the wuu was artificially kept small to (in nintendo's view), please moms around the world, to the detriment of both performance AND noise.

 

[backgroundpersona]

Sorry, my bad! I must have confused your user name with one of the forum's (roughly 2, AFAIK) AMD people. Yay me.

The really sad part here is that wuu isn't even a quiet console. PS4, which has easily five times the raw performance, is quieter. The tiny, high-speed fan wuu uses has a very sharp whining tone to it, and the rapid, constantly spinning BR disc - the drive of which isn't rubber grommeted to the chassis - also contributes a lot of noise. Again not a problem in other consoles since they run the game off HDDs which are virtually silent.

So the size of the wuu was artificially kept small to (in nintendo's view), please moms around the world, to the detriment of both performance AND noise.

Its not "wuu" its Wii U or perhaps you people simply can't learn at all...

Saying that Wii U is louder than PlayStation 4 is a scientifically/factually wrong, couple of months ago I persuaded my both friends to lend me their console for some testing. One had a Wii U while other had PlayStation 4, I did testing in the same room and conditions in a sound proof gig room...The conclusion is that PlayStation 4 is slightly louder and it does not matter if you run your games on HDD even if "virtually silent", eMMC in Wii U is deadly silent.

@underlined No and you just want to believe that. Do you have something against Japanese/European standards and reliable, durable, efficient designs? I guess you don't like a piece of hardware that would last you 10-20-30 years.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Its not "wuu" its Wii U or perhaps you people simply can't learn at all...

It's an abbreviation, like XB1. Not that it matters - I've taken a disliking to your attitude and contributions to this thread (little technical merit, lots of airy-fairy arguments, arrogant attitude) and I'm somewhat suspicious you're someone we've removed before. But even if not, I don't think you're going to contribute in a positive way to this thread or board, so I'm nipping this in the bud.

 

[mosen]

BGassassins leaked developer info also supported the 160SPU count, and the mods at Neogaf backed it up. It doesnt matter, the 176 Gflop GPU powering Wii U outperforms the 252Gflop GPU powering the 360, developers are backing that up. How can that be? Smarter people than me would have to do the explaining.

Different efficiency?

Analysis of Xbox 360 shaders suggests that of the five available lanes (a float4 operation, co-issued with a float operation), only three are used on average.

http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-gpu-2/2/

 

[Goodtwin]

I still dont know why Nintendo hasnt opened up additional memory. There is no reason to hold 1GB reserved for the Internet browser and Miiverse, they should need that much to be accessible during games. Nintendo has always offered very reliable hardware, but perhaps its time for Nintendo to consider pushing the envelope a bit, and finding out how far they can push the clock speeds before the system melts. If a PPC750GX can be clocked at 1Ghz pulling just 9w, then the Wii U's processor should be able to be clocked much higher on its much smaller process. The GPU probably not quite as much, maybe a bump to 650Mhz. The memory is the only one I think could really happen, but do you guys think Nintendo should consider such a thing? Would bumping the CPU to 1.6Ghz, the GPU to 650Mhz overheat the console quickly? More importantly, would the increases be enough to make a tangible difference?

 

[Reznor007]

The really sad part here is that wuu isn't even a quiet console. PS4, which has easily five times the raw performance, is quieter. The tiny, high-speed fan wuu uses has a very sharp whining tone to it, and the rapid, constantly spinning BR disc - the drive of which isn't rubber grommeted to the chassis - also contributes a lot of noise. Again not a problem in other consoles since they run the game off HDDs which are virtually silent.

So the size of the wuu was artificially kept small to (in nintendo's view), please moms around the world, to the detriment of both performance AND noise.

I have to disagree on the noise aspect. I've been playing Super Mario 3D World quite a bit lately, and I've never heard the fan on my Wii-u. The only time I hear the disc drive is when you first turn it on, and it has to do a drive reset, and when the disc initially spins up, but it's pretty quiet.

And other than SM3DW, all my games are on an external hard drive, so no noise there either.

 

[Grall]

Its not "wuu" its Wii U

No need to get your panties in a bind... "wuu" is simply faster/easier to type, much in the same way as "playstation 4" becomes PS4 etc (and IMO at least, looks better than "wiiu", which sounds ridiculous if pronounced.)

Saying that Wii U is louder than PlayStation 4 is a scientifically/factually wrong

It's not scientifically wrong. Higher-pitched sounds - as produced by the tiny 40mm axial wuu fan compared to the much larger radial fan in PS4 - are typically percieved as more annoying by the human ear. Not that this really matters now I guess, I just wanted to back up/stand by my previous statement...

@underlined No and you just want to believe that.

Actually there's a quote from some big-wig hat over at Nintendo Japan that quite literally says the wuu was designed as-is to be small and inobtrusive so moms would not be embarrassed to have it in the living room. I don't think it would be too difficult to google up for anyone really interested in finding out the truth.

Do you have something against Japanese/European standards and reliable, durable, efficient designs?

No, I love Japanese consumer goods design, the PS4 is both small and powerful (not much larger than wuu would be if it'd had an internal harddrive and power supply.) I just don't think the wuu was a good games console hardware design, that's all (for reasons I've re-iterated too many times already.)

I guess you don't like a piece of hardware that would last you 10-20-30 years.

Unfortunately, the wuu wouldn't last that long. The mechanical components would wear out long before that; tiny fans in particular have a nasty tendency to die prematurely, and (slot-in) optical drives also age relatively poorly.

No idea how long the on-board flash would be expected to last, "long enough", most likely, IE, longer than say, the fan would.

I'm somewhat suspicious you're someone we've removed before.

(Sorry.)

I still dont know why Nintendo hasnt opened up additional memory.

I think it's because they're Nintendo, they like to pretend as if they're incapable of making mistakes or in need of changing their strategy. What I'm a bit irritated by is that they're not just not UNLOCKING this memory, they're also not putting it to any use...AT ALL. The OS is still slow, a year and a half after launch. With a gigabyte held in reserve, EVERYTHING could be pre-loaded into RAM, the whole e-store, the browser, the settings app etc. Entering and exit them could be lightning quick, but not even this Nintendo is doing.

Very disappointing.

perhaps its time for Nintendo to consider pushing the envelope a bit, and finding out how far they can push the clock speeds before the system melts.

I don't think that would be advisable, considering how small and simple the wuu's cooling solution is. It's definitely designed to fit the current needs of the system, and pushing the clock wouldn't bring all that much additional performance anyway. The big performance blocks in wuu are inherent to the poor overall system design.

That is, if the clock PLLs in wuu are software adjustable to begin with. They often aren't in nintendo consoles.

Most importantly, would clocking the console a little faster really help it in any substantial way? Not really. What wuu needs is a lot of really good software, but as nintendo has largely alienated its 3rd party support that wouldn't automatically return just from slightly higher clocks.

At this point I believe nintendo would need to dip into its warchest to pay devs to make games for the system; sales is so poor for wuu now that it just isn't profitable to spend any significant money on a big 3rd party title, yet historically nintendo has never liked doing this. A game sold to a 3rd party developer is money not going into nintendo's own pocket, they like to reason. And thus we have the current situation where nintendo's lip-service 3rd party support has come back to bite them in a major way.

It'll be interesting to see what they do next.

 

[Lalaland]

....I don't think you're going to contribute in a positive way to this thread or board, so I'm nipping this in the bud.

And the Wuu thread claims another meltdown victim, I wonder if the Durango/XB1 thread will consume as many fanbois for as long?

It's not scientifically wrong. Higher-pitched sounds - as produced by the tiny 40mm axial wuu fan compared to the much larger radial fan in PS4 - are typically percieved as more annoying by the human ear. Not that this really matters now I guess, I just wanted to back up/stand by my previous statement.

...

Unfortunately, the wuu wouldn't last that long. The mechanical components would wear out long before that; tiny fans in particular have a nasty tendency to die prematurely, and (slot-in) optical drives also age relatively poorly.

Yeah small fans are a very inconstant friend, they start out more or less tolerable, start to get noisier and then they wind up as welcome as the sound of a dentist drill. Without redesigning the chassis to include more small fans at lower speed or a larger fan at slower speeds I'd be very sceptical as to the thermal headroom in the Wuu chassis.

I think it's because they're Nintendo, they like to pretend as if they're incapable of making mistakes or in need of changing their strategy. What I'm a bit irritated by is that they're not just not UNLOCKING this memory, they're also not putting it to any use...AT ALL. The OS is still slow, a year and a half after launch. With a gigabyte held in reserve, EVERYTHING could be pre-loaded into RAM, the whole e-store, the browser, the settings app etc. Entering and exit them could be lightning quick, but not even this Nintendo is doing.

This is even more bizarre given that they had a relationship with Opera at one point who could have created a very fast browser indeed for them. Given that they managed to make a browser on the DS the Wuu would be an absolute breeze. Would have, could have, should have there's a great book in this someday.

PS I've never used Wuu before but I feel positively compelled to now

 

[Inuhanyou]

I still dont know why Nintendo hasnt opened up additional memory. There is no reason to hold 1GB reserved for the Internet browser and Miiverse, they should need that much to be accessible during games. Nintendo has always offered very reliable hardware, but perhaps its time for Nintendo to consider pushing the envelope a bit, and finding out how far they can push the clock speeds before the system melts. If a PPC750GX can be clocked at 1Ghz pulling just 9w, then the Wii U's processor should be able to be clocked much higher on its much smaller process. The GPU probably not quite as much, maybe a bump to 650Mhz. The memory is the only one I think could really happen, but do you guys think Nintendo should consider such a thing? Would bumping the CPU to 1.6Ghz, the GPU to 650Mhz overheat the console quickly? More importantly, would the increases be enough to make a tangible difference?

I don't think you should expect Nintendo to ever up the ram allocation or gpu or cpu or anything like that for Wii U. My guess is that they'd sooner come out with a new console than do that. Even beyond the fact that gpu and cpu upclocks after launch are just plain impractical for fixed hardware, the real meat of the issue is simply that the hardware itself is not where their problem is.

They made the box the way they wanted it to come out. And any slight tweaking isn't going to change the fact, that its comparable to the 7th gen HD twins. Yes the GPU may be slightly better, but the CPU is even inferior to Xenon, and my theory is that the 2gb amount of ram is only even that large because they could get it cheaper in bulk like that in DDR3 than going lower. And also probably did it with the mind of being able to throw everything OS related into a big pool so they would not have to worry about size limits while stilling having enough for games.

The Wii U's issue is its plain undesirability as a product for a majority of consumers, and the lackluster content Nintendo puts out for the platform.

 

[Goodtwin]

I don't think you should expect Nintendo to ever up the ram allocation or gpu or cpu or anything like that for Wii U. My guess is that they'd sooner come out with a new console than do that. Even beyond the fact that gpu and cpu upclocks after launch are just plain impractical for fixed hardware, the real meat of the issue is simply that the hardware itself is not where their problem is.

They made the box the way they wanted it to come out. And any slight tweaking isn't going to change the fact, that its comparable to the 7th gen HD twins. Yes the GPU may be slightly better, but the CPU is even inferior to Xenon, and my theory is that the 2gb amount of ram is only even that large because they could get it cheaper in bulk like that in DDR3 than going lower. And also probably did it with the mind of being able to throw everything OS related into a big pool so they would not have to worry about size limits while stilling having enough for games.

The Wii U's issue is its plain undesirability as a product for a majority of consumers, and the lackluster content Nintendo puts out for the platform.

Nintendo's major hurdle most certainly is the lack of system selling software. I think that will change in a few months when Mario Kart 8 comes out, but even that title can only take the console so far. Nintendo will support the system for quite a few years yet, there is very little chance we will see a new console from them prior to 2017. If Nintendo doesnt bundle Mario Kart 8 with the Wii U when the game releases, then Nintendo's higher ups are beyond all hope. Take notice Nintendo, Microsoft is bundling Titanfall with the X1.

Even with the CPU's limitations, games that are built from the ground up for Wii U will most likely avoid any significant issues. Imagine taking a game like Goldeneye on Wii, and then creating the same game on Wii U, only with the best possible graphics the system can muster. The physics, AI, and level geometry would be kept more modest, but that would allow the developer to create a visually stunning game that runs at 60fps.

Code doesnt have to be SIMD heavy. When you have a processor that is very favorable for SIMD code, then it makes sense since it can speed up you code significantly in certain situations. That is not the case with Wii U, which seems to excel in scalar code.

Even though Donkey Kong Country TF is a good game, Nintendo was foolish to not have Retro Studios work on a game that really showcases the hardware. Metroid Prime Corruption was an excellent looking game, and ran at 60fps on Wii. Third parties arent going to commit to such an effort on Wii U. Why would they. They would have to work twice as hard to make a visually stunning game on Wii U as they would to do it on the PS4/X1, and that market is much more favorable for their games.

Like Grall said on the memory, its super frustrating knowing that they have 1GB of memory for the OS, but they refuse to preload the apps into the memory. Everything has to come out of the flash memory, and its slow. Its better than it was, but there is no reason to not load those apps into the memory for lighting quick access.

 

[MrFox]

Axial fans tend to have a problem with dust, the smaller the fan the worse it is (see wii, gamecube, 360 power brick, chipset fans, raid card fans, etc). At least this time Nintendo used a high quality BB fan. While it's not going to help with dust, I'm guessing it should last longer than the sleeve fan in the wii.

It seems to be a custom variant of the U40G*M*A5, possibly just a different winding for 5V, and a tach output?
http://www.nidec.com/en-Global/product/fan/category/F010/G030/P2000056/

IMO, Nintendo suffers from the "bose acoustimass" syndrome. The form factor was king, and it didn't matter that a slightly larger enclosure would have allowed a huge performance boost. It's a good fan and heatsink design, it's the best they could fit by playing it safe and reusing the gamecube and wii approach, with a very low cost... but this infatuation with form factor is crazy. Adding only one inch could have allowed twice the heat removal capability, and a much nicer 60mm or 70mm fan.

 

[Goodtwin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgHUwX0U4HA&feature=player_detailpage

A little further insight on how developers feel about the Wii U hardware. He basically talks about the Wii U sitting in no mans land so to speak. Its not powerful enough to be included with X1 and PS4 development, and it came out so late in the 360 and PS3 life cycle that those game engines and tools are refined and matured. This is where the business side of things comes into play. How much of an investment are you going to make for a system that sits on its own island. Its sits somewhat close to the 360 and PS3 in terms of performance, but at this point does is make much sense to invest a lot of time and effort into refining tools and your game engine for a console is giving very low return on investment? Especially when those resources can be used to work on the true next gen platforms. For the Saints Row developer, its pretty obvious that they arent going to invest in reworking old technology that will only benefit the Wii U when they could instead be working on their next gen game engines and tools for X1 and PS4, their future platforms for the extended future.

Even though the Wii U may not see quite the disparity between it and the next gen consoles that the Wii saw compared to the 360 and PS3, its apparent that the chasm is large enough that Wii U will get left out as soon as the 360 and PS3 are out of the picture. Possibly sooner because of poor sales performance.

 

[swaaye]

WiiU is essentially in the same technological position as Wii was. Wii was only somewhat superior to PS2 and Xbox (arguably). Wii succeeded because of its gimmick appeal at the time and this did bring over some big publishers and brands for awhile. Nobody gives a damn about the WiiU tablet and motion controls are on the other consoles now, and so there is almost no appeal for WiiU aside from Nintendo games and that doesn't go very far anymore.

 

[Goodtwin]

WiiU is essentially in the same technological position as Wii was. Wii was only somewhat superior to PS2 and Xbox (arguably). Wii succeeded because of its gimmick appeal at the time and this did bring over some big publishers and brands for awhile. Nobody gives a damn about the WiiU tablet and motion controls are on the other consoles now, and so there is almost no appeal for WiiU aside from Nintendo games and that doesn't go very far anymore.

Time will tell on how far Nintendo games can take the console. I know a lot of my Nintendo buddies are expecting huge things from Mario Kart 8, and while I think it will give Wii U a solid boost, its still only one game. Gamecube had Mario Kart and Smash Bros and only sold 22 million units so I cant really see how those titles can do much more for Wii U than they did for Gamecube.

 

[Grall]

Mariokart's only lasting appeal is as a multiplayer party game; racing games have virtually no lasting appeal for most people except racing gearheads, and those generally care about real sports cars, not funny-looking comicbook carts being raced by anthropomorphic animals and cartoon characters.

Also, there's been HOW many mario karts now? How big can demand for this thing really be? Meanwhile, where's the games with actual plot and depth...? Nintendo should have been working on an action/adventure Kid Icarus from day one the wuu was dreamt up. ...And, a Metroid game too. Bah!

 

[Goodtwin]

So, these larger studios had a choice. Would they develop a port of an existing game to a console with limited capabilities and limited market penetration? Or put their teams to work on developing new features and concepts for the "real" next-gen consoles that were going to be launched that year? When you look at it this way, the choice isn't that hard.

In 2012 when third parties were testing the waters with Wii U, I think they actually had good intentions. Software performance was hindered by Nintendo's terrible SDK's. Im not saying that they went all in, but there was most likely a respectable amount of resources devoted to porting thier games to Wii U.

Code optimised for the PowerPC processors found in the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 wasn't always a good fit for the Wii U CPU, so while the chip has some interesting features that let the CPU punch above its weight, we couldn't fully take advantage of them. However, some code could see substantial improvements that did mitigate the lower clocks - anything up to a 4x boost owing to the removal of Load-Hit-Stores, and higher IPC (instructions per cycle) via the inclusion of out-of-order execution.

Now fast forward to 2013. Wii U off to a very slow start, and third party titles across the board have pretty low sales. The anonymous developer from the Eurogamer article admits they left performance on the table, but from a business perspective it doesnt make sense to rework the code around the strengths of the Wii U. Its admitting that the comparison for a game like Assasssins Creed 4 between the Wii U and 360/PS3 is not fair to the Wii U, the effort for the Wii U build is nowhere near that of the other versions. As a Wii U gamer, I am ready to see these half heartened ports go away. Games like Bayonetta 2 and X will benefit if these ports simply go away.

 

[Grall]

How's bayonetta doing anyway? What's the chance the reason it hasn't launched yet is they're pulling a rayman and is busy crossporting it to the PS360? Cuz, it'd never make back its money if it remains wuu exclusive, not in a million years. They'd need to sell a copy to at least 50 percent of all wuu owners, and I seriously doubt that'd happen.

 

[AlNom]

Nintendo is backing it I thought.

 

[Goodtwin]

Nintendo is funding the game, so its exclusive. Its not going to have a rediculous budget. I would bet it needs to sell around 750k to break even. The budget is unlikely to be over 20 million dollars.