Wii U hardware discussion and investigation *rename

[creaks]

People need to clarify what they mean by generation. Annual refreshes are different to 'DirectX' level capability improvements. SM3 parts fit into the same generation in that respect, and SM4 is another gen. Ultimately I think using the term generations causes more trouble than it's worth. How many architectural advances is Wuu over XB360 relative to AMD's product line-up since 2005?

People are just going with what it means to them.

Suppose Shin en would be the one who should clarify... Though reading through the interview i suppose they did. It seems pretty clear they are talking about gpu generations. And its not like english is their first language. Though i dont really find it misleading or confusing in the context of the interview. If wii u has even just a 2008 gpu base it would be several gpu generations beyond xenos.


As for the people calling shin en pr bs, liars, ignorant of ps360 architecture/power etc....

You may want to research exactly who they are and where they come from. Shin en may only release games under its name for nintendo platforms, but it members have experience on practically all systems, including 360, but thats just a drop in the bucket, really im talking so many systems, like ps2 to amiga, to c64 to the freaking sinclair.

They come from the pc demo scene (mostly abyss) and they are good. damn good, future crew good. They know how to get the most out of everything they get their hands on, and they've had their hands on practically everything.

People may want to listen to what they have to say.

 

[Grall]

If they publish only for nintendo that just makes their statements even more suspect. That would make them nintendo 2nd party developers and just a step away from walking in nintendo's leash entirely. I wouldn't put any particular emphasis on anything this guy says on this matter as he's mainly just interested in making his employers happy.

 

[Fourth Storm]

There's definitely a hint of spin going on, but I think we all pretty much know what they meant when they said "generations." Wii U (or wuu as you guys prefer) is based off R700 tech with some fine tuning. How much of an improvement that series truly is from what's in PS3 and 360 can be debated, of course. I agree that, unfortunately, that comment has not really told us anything we don't already know.

 

[Cyan]

I would say that they are about one gen ahead of the PS3, half a gen ahead of the 360 and one behind the PS4/One. I consider the move to unified shaders to be one generation and GCN to be a generation ahead once again. The Xbox 360 is like unified shaders 1.0 whereas the Wii U is like version 1.5.

The GPU doesn't seem bad at all, and coupled with EDRAM it should give good results in games.

It's not that we can say about Nintendo how "kiddie" their system is compared to the original Wii, although we still look at them as the underdogs. Even so, when it comes to profit, they're on point every time.

So yes, taking into account the power consumption of the console, it is not bad hardware, but from a price viewpoint the loss goes to the people who buy the console at that price.

Maybe they have a special mode where they can overclock the console and the power consumption suddenly increases more accordingly to the expected levels, but it seems unlikely because of the reasons some forumers mentioned already.

 

[creaks]

If they publish only for nintendo that just makes their statements even more suspect. That would make them nintendo 2nd party developers and just a step away from walking in nintendo's leash entirely. I wouldn't put any particular emphasis on anything this guy says on this matter as he's mainly just interested in making his employers happy.

Shin'en doesnt have employers, they have clients.

They also offer freelance services to other developers and publishers. They are not second party.

 

[pc999]

IMO, the only generation that matters in this scenario is the DX10 advantage wuu supposedly has, but what game shown so far actually leverages that? Of nintendo's own software, the best-looking game is pikmin, and what in that could not be rendered just as well on current consoles? Since 3rd party support is almost nonexistent I'm sure finding better examples from another developer could be very difficult. Ray-man is also a very pretty game, but it is releasing on other consoles so probably no difference in graphics there either probably.

Personally I dont think we will see a generational leap but more of a PS2>GC/wii one, more on line with the Zelda HD demo from last year (?), which makes me remember the AMD PingPong tech demo more than anything from last gen.

It certainly had a different kind of lightning that blends much better, more on par with the UE4 demo or KZ:SF lightning than the much more aggressive lightning of GoW or the typical ps360 high end game. Clearly not near of the overall quality and with much less lights, details and particles but much nicer on the eye.

So may take is that given all the info you can take any last gen, give it 1,5-2x the detail and this kind of lightning with a smother fremerate and 720p.

Honestly if it can take Crysis 3 (console) and make it 1-5x better with good fremerate is more than we need, I actually think that it had to much detail to the point where it detract the experience.

 

[Grall]

They are not second party.

Whatever. The speech he gives reeks of PR spin, and we know the hardware in wuu is pure shit; nothing this guy or anyone else says will change that.

 

[creaks]

Whatever. The speech he gives reeks of PR spin, and we know the hardware in wuu is pure shit; nothing this guy or anyone else says will change that.

Indeed.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect

 

[yewyew]

People need to clarify what they mean by generation. Annual refreshes are different to 'DirectX' level capability improvements. SM3 parts fit into the same generation in that respect, and SM4 is another gen. Ultimately I think using the term generations causes more trouble than it's worth. How many architectural advances is Wuu over XB360 relative to AMD's product line-up since 2005?

I still say Latté is 1.5 (PC) generations ahead of Xenos max, 2.5 ahead of RSX.

 

[Grall]

Btw, seeing how dusty my wuu had become (damn you nintendo for not offering the pro version in white until now) prompted me to clean it off and update to the latest firmware. Took f-king 54 minutes (*edit: including time for one failure error message and subsequent console reboot), unbelievable!

Btw again, unbelievable how ridiculously, idiotically slow and pathetically stupidly designed nintendo's e-store is. Everything requires roughly 11x more clicks and continues and confirms than any other e-store ever made, every step takes a minimum of 10 seconds to process, regardless how pathetically tiny amount of data is transferred (such as a prompt to "read the following information" notification when clicking to purchase a virtual console game and displaying NOTHING AT ALL), and just to piss me off even more, the e-store app just crashed on me as well for absolutely no reason whatsoever when trying to display the menu. Brilliant nintendo, brilliant.

Edit 3: Super Metroid is on sale. Bought it for SKR 3. Laughable btw that F-Zero sells for SKR80 (~US$11), guess I should have bothered to buy it when it was on sale. Not that I'll ever play it again in my life (it was fun 20 years ago but not THAT fun.) *shrug*

 

[TheLump]

Btw, seeing how dusty my wuu had become (damn you nintendo for not offering the pro version in white until now) prompted me to clean it off and update to the latest firmware. Took f-king 54 minutes (*edit: including time for one failure error message and subsequent console reboot), unbelievable!

Btw again, unbelievable how ridiculously, idiotically slow and pathetically stupidly designed nintendo's e-store is. Everything requires roughly 11x more clicks and continues and confirms than any other e-store ever made, every step takes a minimum of 10 seconds to process, regardless how pathetically tiny amount of data is transferred (such as a prompt to "read the following information" notification when clicking to purchase a virtual console game and displaying NOTHING AT ALL), and just to piss me off even more, the e-store app just crashed on me as well for absolutely no reason whatsoever when trying to display the menu. Brilliant nintendo, brilliant.

Edit 3: Super Metroid is on sale. Bought it for SKR 3. Laughable btw that F-Zero sells for SKR80 (~US$11), guess I should have bothered to buy it when it was on sale. Not that I'll ever play it again in my life (it was fun 20 years ago but not THAT fun.) *shrug*

Wow. Quite the rant.

I havn't had an update take nearly that long. And if you have funds in your "wallet" the process of buying a game is pretty much the same amount of "clicks" as PS Store I believe. Its certainly quicker than PS Store to navigate since Sony's recent rehaul of the U/I (god damn I miss the old store). Any way, thats for another thread.

OT. Shin'ens comments ruffled alot of feathers for whatever reason. I dont think they said anything particularly controversial or anything beyond common sense tbh. And the part about the GPU "generations" thing wasn't really the most interesting part of the interview. Was more interesting to hear about the CPU cache set up and how they have to really tailor their approach to the systems strengths as this is what alot of people speculated developers would have to deal with (based on the hardware analysis). Whether Nintendo made the right choice in creating the system in this way is also for another thread I suppose.


Incidentally, how does (amount of cores aside) Espresso currently line up against Jaguar CPUs in Xbone/PS4?

 

[Rodéric]

I'd love to have a Wii U DevKit to see how far I can push it...
(Maybe I should check how hard it is to register as a indie.)

 

[creaks]

Wow. Quite the rant.

I havn't had an update take nearly that long. And if you have funds in your "wallet" the process of buying a game is pretty much the same amount of "clicks" as PS Store I believe. Its certainly quicker than PS Store to navigate since Sony's recent rehaul of the U/I (god damn I miss the old store). Any way, thats for another thread.

OT. Shin'ens comments ruffled alot of feathers for whatever reason. I dont think they said anything particularly controversial or anything beyond common sense tbh. And the part about the GPU "generations" thing wasn't really the most interesting part of the interview. Was more interesting to hear about the CPU cache set up and how they have to really tailor their approach to the systems strengths as this is what alot of people speculated developers would have to deal with (based on the hardware analysis). Whether Nintendo made the right choice in creating the system in this way is also for another thread I suppose.


Incidentally, how does (amount of cores aside) Espresso currently line up against Jaguar CPUs in Xbone/PS4?

Core for core? Not too bad actually. Looking at stock jaguars anyway. Its biggest shortcoming is definately cpu flop throughput. Unless nintendo added more to their simd than paired singles and no one in the worlds figured it out, it gets spanked here. I would imagine gpgpu would be solution/compromise for that. Although to be honest, neither ps4 nor xbone is reaching last gen cpu, CPU flop throughput like cell.

But it keeps up reasonably well in drystones. 750 architecture gets 2.32 dmips per Mhz (@90nm, there is literally no documentation for any smaller process sizes so.... i dunno), while Jaguar, better than boncat, should be around 2.6 or somethin yeah? Clocked at 1.24 Ghz and 1.6 Ghz respectively. So 3 vs 3 cores, its actually not bad.

But there are 5 more cores, although its not like you can make something monstrous just because you have 8 cores. Some things just cant be done concurrently, you have to do it, and wait for it, at the mercy of just one core. Unless They've found a way around amdahls law.

Imo, it looks to me like ps4 and xbone on average are around 3-5x (xbone low ps4 high) more powerful in performance metrics Ive mulled over (dhrystones whetstones).

Not a huge difference to me. And I certainly dont expect anyone of this gen to actually use any of that power to do anything impressive. Not today. And anyone who does will simply be swept under the rug by the diarrhea deluge of homogenous bloated budget 'AAAAAAAAAA' games. With me once again left linking youtube videos of amazing feats to people who just dont care.

 

[TheLump]

Core for core? Not too bad actually. Looking at stock jaguars anyway. Its biggest shortcoming is definately cpu flop throughput. Unless nintendo added more to their simd than paired singles and no one in the worlds figured it out, it gets spanked here. I would imagine gpgpu would be solution/compromise for that. Although to be honest, neither ps4 nor xbone is reaching last gen cpu, CPU flop throughput like cell.

But it keeps up reasonably well in drystones. 750 architecture gets 2.32 dmips per Mhz (@90nm, there is literally no documentation for any smaller process sizes so.... i dunno), while Jaguar, better than boncat, should be around 2.6 or somethin yeah? Clocked at 1.24 Ghz and 1.6 Ghz respectively. So 3 vs 3 cores, its actually not bad.

But there are 5 more cores, although its not like you can make something monstrous just because you have 8 cores. Some things just cant be done concurrently, you have to do it, and wait for it, at the mercy of just one core. Unless They've found a way around amdahls law.

Imo, it looks to me like ps4 and xbone on average are around 3-5x (xbone low ps4 high) more powerful in performance metrics Ive mulled over (dhrystones whetstones).

Not a huge difference to me. And I certainly dont expect anyone of this gen to actually use any of that power to do anything impressive. Not today. And anyone who does will simply be swept under the rug by the diarrhea deluge of homogenous bloated budget 'AAAAAAAAAA' games. With me once again left linking youtube videos of amazing feats to people who just dont care.

Interesting. Thanks for the analysis.

I won't pretend to understand it all, but from what I do understand I'm more and more getting the feeling Nintendo's intention was to be "next gen-lite" if you like. My hypothesis (guesswork) is maybe they were aiming to be a diet-version of whatever Microsoft were cooking. There were rumours abound that originally MS had planned an even lower specc'd box than they ended up with. If thats correct then WiiU would have been in line to sit a little closer behind it on paper - still a ways behind, but not as far as they ended up. I anticipate Nintendo are a little more off the pace than they intended in terms of raw numbers.

Its encouraging that they at least all seem to have gone for the same philosphy of GPU heavy systems, with relatively small but efficient CPUs. On the face of it ports will at least be possible between all three systems (ie no lack of feature set stopping them as per last gen). Whether there will be any financial impetus for them to support nintendo's box is still very much undecided though.

Back to the CPUs n stuff: Do either of the other two boxes have a dedictaed Audio DSP (do we know?). I suppose that at least has to be factored in. I'm not saying it will completely redeem the WiiU CPU against the others, but it surely helps?

 

[lwill]

Core for core? Not too bad actually. Looking at stock jaguars anyway. Its biggest shortcoming is definately cpu flop throughput. Unless nintendo added more to their simd than paired singles and no one in the worlds figured it out, it gets spanked here. I would imagine gpgpu would be solution/compromise for that. Although to be honest, neither ps4 nor xbone is reaching last gen cpu, CPU flop throughput like cell.

But it keeps up reasonably well in drystones. 750 architecture gets 2.32 dmips per Mhz (@90nm, there is literally no documentation for any smaller process sizes so.... i dunno), while Jaguar, better than boncat, should be around 2.6 or somethin yeah? Clocked at 1.24 Ghz and 1.6 Ghz respectively. So 3 vs 3 cores, its actually not bad.

But there are 5 more cores, although its not like you can make something monstrous just because you have 8 cores. Some things just cant be done concurrently, you have to do it, and wait for it, at the mercy of just one core. Unless They've found a way around amdahls law.

Imo, it looks to me like ps4 and xbone on average are around 3-5x (xbone low ps4 high) more powerful in performance metrics Ive mulled over (dhrystones whetstones).

Not a huge difference to me. And I certainly dont expect anyone of this gen to actually use any of that power to do anything impressive. Not today. And anyone who does will simply be swept under the rug by the diarrhea deluge of homogenous bloated budget 'AAAAAAAAAA' games. With me once again left linking youtube videos of amazing feats to people who just dont care.

I see. Thanks for the analysis, Creaks.

Interesting. Thanks for the analysis.

I won't pretend to understand it all, but from what I do understand I'm more and more getting the feeling Nintendo's intention was to be "next gen-lite" if you like. My hypothesis (guesswork) is maybe they were aiming to be a diet-version of whatever Microsoft were cooking. There were rumours abound that originally MS had planned an even lower specc'd box than they ended up with. If thats correct then WiiU would have been in line to sit a little closer behind it on paper - still an order of magnitude behind, but not as far as they ended up. I anticipate Nintendo are a little more off the pace than they intended in terms of raw numbers.

Its encouraging that they at least all seem to have gone for the same philosphy of GPU heavy systems, with relatively small but efficient CPUs. On the face of it ports will at least be possible between all three systems (ie no lack of feature set stopping them as per last gen). Whether there will be any financial impetus for them to support nintendo's box is still very much undecided though.

Back to the CPUs n stuff: Do either of the other two boxes have a dedictaed Audio DSP (do we know?). I suppose that at least has to be factored in. I'm not saying it will completely redeem the WiiU CPU against the others, but it surely helps?

Just to clarify, an order of magnitude is 10x.

And yes, all next-gen consoles will have a DSP.

 

[TheLump]

I see. Thanks for the analysis, Creaks.



Just to clarify, an order of magnitude is 10x.

And yes, all next-gen consoles will have a DSP.

Sorry, i know what i meant Edited.

Ok cool re: the DSP. Good to know, thanks.

 

[pc999]

Interesting. Thanks for the analysis.

I won't pretend to understand it all, but from what I do understand I'm more and more getting the feeling Nintendo's intention was to be "next gen-lite" if you like. My hypothesis (guesswork) is maybe they were aiming to be a diet-version of whatever Microsoft were cooking. There were rumours abound that originally MS had planned an even lower specc'd box than they ended up with. If thats correct then WiiU would have been in line to sit a little closer behind it on paper - still a ways behind, but not as far as they ended up. I anticipate Nintendo are a little more off the pace than they intended in terms of raw numbers.

Its encouraging that they at least all seem to have gone for the same philosphy of GPU heavy systems, with relatively small but efficient CPUs. On the face of it ports will at least be possible between all three systems (ie no lack of feature set stopping them as per last gen). Whether there will be any financial impetus for them to support nintendo's box is still very much undecided though.

Back to the CPUs n stuff: Do either of the other two boxes have a dedictaed Audio DSP (do we know?). I suppose that at least has to be factored in. I'm not saying it will completely redeem the WiiU CPU against the others, but it surely helps?

Dont expect it to get PS4/one ports unless ps360 is getting them to!

And the audio dsp should help to distance it from ps360 not get closer tos PS4/one

Personally aim for E3 Zelda looks,or a bit more than KZ3, Last of Us, Crysis 3/Battlefield 3 (console version), but not much more.

 

[Rangers]

If thats correct then WiiU would have been in line to sit a little closer behind it on paper - still a ways behind, but not as far as they ended up. I anticipate Nintendo are a little more off the pace than they intended in terms of raw numbers.

I dont believe Nintendo were thinking this for a second. It sees clear to me they thought current gen parity would be enough. They must have figured the gap to next gen would have been smaller than in the past, then. Probably thinking "we stay a generation behind, but it matters less"

Or, they weren't thinking at all,. Always a good possibility with Nintendo.

The one thing I can see them getting blindsided on is the RAM. MS/Sony could have went from 2-4GB's planned in next gen, to 8GB (!) (it's been said on this board MS upped to 8GB in 2011, and Sony even later). It was like a RAM arms race. Not a good turn of events for Ninty.

Not that it would have materially mattered imo.

 

[creaks]

Dont expect it to get PS4/one ports unless ps360 is getting them to!



And the audio dsp should help to distance it from ps360 not get closer tos PS4/one



Personally aim for E3 Zelda looks,or a bit more than KZ3, Last of Us, Crysis 3/Battlefield 3 (console version), but not much more.

Unless this system starts selling i wouldnt expect a wii u port even if ps360 got ports of xbone/ps4 games.

 

[ltcommander.data]

But there are 5 more cores, although its not like you can make something monstrous just because you have 8 cores. Some things just cant be done concurrently, you have to do it, and wait for it, at the mercy of just one core. Unless They've found a way around amdahls law.

That begs the question if 1 main core with a large 2 MB L2 cache and 2 supporting cores with 512 kB L2 caches extracts the most concurrency and performance given their transistor budget? Looking at the die, it seems like 1 core is roughly the size of 1 MB of L2 cache, which means that Nintendo could alternatively have gone with 4 symmetric cores each with 512 kB of L2 cache without significantly increasing their die area. It's no doubt situation dependent, but overall, does the main core having 1.5 MB of extra L2 cache make up for not having a 4th core?