Wii U hardware discussion and investigation *rename

[Laa-Yosh]

The main reason why the Wii U is unlikely to get a Last of Us caliber game is money - there is not a big enough user base and probably won't be for quite a few years on to justify such expenditure.

Also, Naughty Dog's art and tech teams have been learning to make the most of a certain hardware for 3 games to get to this point - finding such an experienced team to develop for the Wii U is going to be hard.

 

[Blazkowicz]

lol wut?

Where did you get this?

This post is full of complete nonsense.
"Still unable to gain smp support or clock speeds with the 750 family for the g5" <- what does that mean?
lots of mixing up between g3 and g4 and g5, or the idea that a g3 outperforms a dual g4 which is just damn ridiculous.

G3 is a powerpc 750, G4 a new design (power pc 7400) and G5, well a radically different thing, it's derived from the POWER4 and was powerful (had a dual core version too) but was too hungry for a laptop (no mac mini with it either)

Xenon and PPE were a new design that didn't go anywhere - though there's POWER6 sharing a basic philosophy of in-order and high clock, with the difference that it was made to have real peformance.

The problem with guessing a 750 with the facts we had is, its doing 2 impossible things for the 750 family. It has smp support, which no 750 ever had ever, its inability to support multicore was one of the reasons the series was terminated in 2006 (another reason it 'couldnt' have been a 750, the series was publically terminated in 2006, and never made on a process smaller than 90nm) the other reason is because the family couldnt be clocked higher than 1ghz, at a time when 3-4 Ghz was what was demanded. Wii u cpu is clocked at 1.25 Ghz, higher than any 750 in existance... The reason why is because its fabbed on a 45nm process, which is 'impossible' because the family was publically terminated before it ever got below 90nm.

Amazingly, after the incoherent and undecipherable stuff you've written, what you say here makes mostly sense and I mostly agree with it. Those are reasons to think it's not a 750, it may be a custom design (IBM can afford this) but it may re-use whatever concepts for earlier CPUs or the ppc 47x which was being developed, I don't know.

The fact that ibm was still attempting to do something with its last good architecture it publically said it terminated wasnt known until we found out it was still making specialty 750's for select clients, when one such client announced they needed to take one to mars. Now we know there are years of undocumented entries into the 750 line."
Thoughts?

The radiation hardened version dates back to 2001 so it's not much secret, given it's referenced on wikipedia with details there and a list of notable space probes using it. 110 to 200MHz by the way and 250 or 150nm process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750

 

[wsippel]

Amazingly, after the incoherent and undecipherable stuff you've written, what you say here makes mostly sense and I mostly agree with it. Those are reasons to think it's not a 750, it may be a custom design (IBM can afford this) but it may re-use whatever concepts for earlier CPUs or the ppc 47x which was being developed, I don't know.

The eDRAM is PowerPC A2 tech for example, and we know that's in. And as mentioned, the 750 line never supported SMP, was never manufactured in 45nm, never exceeded 1GHz, and was essentially EoL'd in 2006. The whole thing may look like a 750 from a programmer perspective, but that doesn't mean there's actually much 750 left. The silicon is as custom as it gets.

 

[artstyledev]

This post is full of complete nonsense.
"Still unable to gain smp support or clock speeds with the 750 family for the g5" <- what does that mean?
lots of mixing up between g3 and g4 and g5, or the idea that a g3 outperforms a dual g4 which is just damn ridiculous.

G3 is a powerpc 750, G4 a new design (power pc 7400) and G5, well a radically different thing, it's derived from the POWER4 and was powerful (had a dual core version too) but was too hungry for a laptop (no mac mini with it either)

Xenon and PPE were a new design that didn't go anywhere - though there's POWER6 sharing a basic philosophy of in-order and high clock, with the difference that it was made to have real peformance.



Amazingly, after the incoherent and undecipherable stuff you've written, what you say here makes mostly sense and I mostly agree with it. Those are reasons to think it's not a 750, it may be a custom design (IBM can afford this) but it may re-use whatever concepts for earlier CPUs or the ppc 47x which was being developed, I don't know.




The radiation hardened version dates back to 2001 so it's not much secret, given it's referenced on wikipedia with details there and a list of notable space probes using it. 110 to 200MHz by the way and 250 or 150nm process.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAD750

Sorry I actually quoted that from another site. I just wanted to get the thoughts from you guys. I just think its amazing the unknown known people are claiming to have. The reality is even in their hardware Iwata ask Nintendo said the important thing.

"Yes. The designers were already incredibly familiar with the Wii, so without getting hung up on the two machines' completely different structures, they came up with ideas we would never have thought of. There were times when you would usually just incorporate both the Wii U and Wii circuits, like 1+1. But instead of just adding like that, they adjusted the new parts added to Wii U so they could be used for Wii as well"

To me this sounds not like they only used a 750 CPU and added more catch and called it a day like the now famous hacker is claiming on twitter. Sounds like they created something new and custom and because they knew the Wii so well they were able to implement certain things to make it BC with Wii. My problem with the whole tech discussion on Wii U is no one is MAN enough to say I just don't know. Everyone is speculating off of unknowns and claiming they now exactly how powerful and exactly what the Wii U will be able to accomplish from a tech standpoint for the next 5 years.

 

[artstyledev]

The eDRAM is PowerPC A2 tech for example, and we know that's in. And as mentioned, the 750 line never supported SMP, was never manufactured in 45nm, never exceeded 1GHz, and was essentially EoL'd in 2006. The whole thing may look like a 750 from a programmer perspective, but that doesn't mean there's actually much 750 left. The silicon is as custom as it gets.

Exactly everything in Wii U is customized heavily. I have complete faith in what it can accomplish. The question is will any dev outside of 1st and 2nd party care enough to push what the system can do. Going to be very interesting to see.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

My problem with the whole tech discussion on Wii U is no one is MAN enough to say I just don't know.

What precisly is the point of saying, "I have no idea," in a tech investigation thread? Should we expect to open up a thread considering what GPU is in the next Xbox or Google console or whatever device to find thousands of people posting: "I've no idea." "Me either." "I'm even more clueless than you guys!"?

This is a an investigation thread where people take their currently understanding and apply it to an unknown to guess what exactly the unknown is. They will present their ideas which anyone and everyone is free to dis/agree with and refute if they want. eg. Comparing launch titles to known hardware, and estimating how much power use is being achieved based on technological know-how of developers.

 

[Color me Dan]

On the topic of information; as a layman, I'm wondering what avenues for WiiU information there is at this point. Developer leaks? Hackers? Enthusiasts tearing the internals apart for analysis? I'm not at all against speculation off course, but I'm curious as to where the confirmatory titbits generally come from at this stage in the game.

It's been too long since the last generation launched for me to remember how fast, and from where, the information about PS360 internals came out. All I remember is that a lot of it was known not all too long after launch... and by "known" I mean generally known. I do remember a lot of little niggling details being discussed fervently (The RSX customization and 360's EDRAM discussions remain vivid*) while Cell and Xenos were rather detailed.

So what and where can we expect news from, aside our speculation?

*This board is a treat to lurk around in. I confess to not understanding half of the technical details, but the knowledge all of you posses is fascinating and your discussions are captivating. Tiny applause for everyone, moderators, developers and laymen alike. Thank you.

 

[theizzzeee]

One thing in the debate the few seem to be noting. Can we all agree that The PS3 had the most powerful CPU of the last generation? Note how during framerate comparisons the older less powerful CPU possessing XBOX360 oftentimes beats the PS3 in that department. So if, CPU is causing so much problems with the Wii U's framerate how come the XBOX360 often smokes the PS3 in that area. Something to think about right? I think the main thing has to do with developer familiarity mostly and architecture secondly. The PS3 was mostly a CPU driven console with the CPU handling some GPU functions and the Wii U is mostly GPU driven with it handling certain CPU functions. Many developers boo hooed and moaned about what a headache the PS3 was to work with when it first came out. I say give things time. Developers begin to figure out and sooner the harder they try. Don't be surprised if, when the PS4 and XBOX720 come out that the Wii U games look better.

 

[NRP]

Why are you asking about cell in a Wii U hardware thread?

 

[AlphaWolf]

Don't be surprised if, when the PS4 and XBOX720 come out that the Wii U games look better.

Don't be surprised if you're wrong. It's hard to believe that MS and Sony will release a console less powerful than the WiiU. And this thread is for hardware discussion of the wiiu not fanciful wishes.

 

[MrFox]

Developers begin to figure out and sooner the harder they try. Don't be surprised if, when the PS4 and XBOX720 come out that the Wii U games look better.

I... I don't even...

PS4/720 will probably be using x86 and AMD GPU, for which there's plenty of extremely competent developers worldwide already, that's a huge head start, let alone the expected hardware being multiple times faster. WiiU will possibly become the "odd one" that needs to be discovered.

 

[Kaotik]

Don't be surprised if you're wrong. It's hard to believe that MS and Sony will release a console less powerful than the WiiU. And this thread is for hardware discussion of the wiiu not fanciful wishes.

Wether the games will look better isn't only about hardware capabilities you know?

 

[pjbliverpool]

One thing in the debate the few seem to be noting. Can we all agree that The PS3 had the most powerful CPU of the last generation? Note how during framerate comparisons the older less powerful CPU possessing XBOX360 oftentimes beats the PS3 in that department.

No I don't think we can agree that. Sure cell has more raw horsepower but how well does that map to the game logic and AI that some of those demanding scenes require? If younneed to do graphics work, or physics work then cell will smoke xenon but if your talking about crunching game logic, AI, animation etc then Xenon could well be faster, especially if the spe's are being used to bring rsx on par with xenos.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Why are you asking about cell in a Wii U hardware thread?

He's using as an example that visuals are mostly dependent on GPU, and hence Wuu will have a lot to offer in that regard.

I... I don't even...

I think (hope, although there's a contingent of enthusiasts who really do want to believe a 150 mm^2 (including eDRAM) 40 nm GPU can kick butt) that he's saying games will look better than they do now, rather than better than PS4/XB3. OR, maybe he's thinking devs will be maxing out Wuu and struggling with PS4 launch titles so they look really rough like Wuu games do now (and PS360 launch games)?

I do hope that in a couple of years, all those suggesting Wii U has hidden power come back and admit they were wrong once we see no more than PS360 games with a little better framerate and a couple extra shader effects on Wii U (that of course goes likewise and I'll happily eat humble pie if wrong). When you think of all the crazy nonsense suggested about Wii's hidden power, it'd be nice if just one of the people spouting such crap and unable to make sane interpretations or listen to reason would have the guts to put up their hand and recognise their mistake, instead of skulking off to some other corner of the internet to spread their delusions (TEXAN*, Jeff_Rigby, PCEngine, etc.).

...

Too bitter?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Wether the games will look better isn't only about hardware capabilities you know?

When talking about the hardware and using 'better looking' as a performance evaluation, yes, it is. "Super Mario Galaxies 3" may be exceptionally pretty, but that'd wouldn't be worth squat in determining the hardware capabilities and relative performance. For Wuu to be close to the next-gen consoles, it'll need visual markers that put it in the same ball park, regardless of whether such games are good looking or not.

 

[Kaotik]

When talking about the hardware and using 'better looking' as a performance evaluation, yes, it is. "Super Mario Galaxies 3" may be exceptionally pretty, but that'd wouldn't be worth squat in determining the hardware capabilities and relative performance. For Wuu to be close to the next-gen consoles, it'll need visual markers that put it in the same ball park, regardless of whether such games are good looking or not.

The point was that at the time when PS4/XB720 come out devs have gotten a much better grip of the Wii U than they have now, and if PS4/XB720 are radically different from what the devs are used to with no heavily over-the-years-optimized engines for them, it is possible that despite being less capable Wii U games can look on par or even better than launch titles.
Then again, if they're indeed x86+Radeons, the devs shouldn't have any problems with "new platform"

 

[babybumb]

At this point i would be willing to bet a large sum of money that there wont ever be a Wii U game that digitalfoundry will declare technically superior to even 2006 Gears of War

Thats just how Nintendo rolls. You will not ever know what the hardware could do

 

[AzaK]

The point was that at the time when PS4/XB720 come out devs have gotten a much better grip of the Wii U than they have now, and if PS4/XB720 are radically different from what the devs are used to with no heavily over-the-years-optimized engines for them, it is possible that despite being less capable Wii U games can look on par or even better than launch titles.
Then again, if they're indeed x86+Radeons, the devs shouldn't have any problems with "new platform"

And potentially fast ones at that. This could enable them to quite easily brute force past the Wii U 2nd gen titles if you get my drift.

In the end, I expect that if downports happen then Wii U titles will look noticeably worse, and really bad (comparatively) a few years after PS4/720. That doesn't bother me. It's whether they get them that does.

 

[artstyledev]

What precisly is the point of saying, "I have no idea," in a tech investigation thread? Should we expect to open up a thread considering what GPU is in the next Xbox or Google console or whatever device to find thousands of people posting: "I've no idea." "Me either." "I'm even more clueless than you guys!"?

This is a an investigation thread where people take their currently understanding and apply it to an unknown to guess what exactly the unknown is. They will present their ideas which anyone and everyone is free to dis/agree with and refute if they want. eg. Comparing launch titles to known hardware, and estimating how much power use is being achieved based on technological know-how of developers.

The tech discussion is fine sorry if you took that the wrong way. For me it's more so no one is willing to meet in the middle. It's either one person being on one side of the extreme against someone who on the other side. Example... On this site and a site like Neogaf which are billed up as sites with tech experts (real developers). From launch games we KNOW have not been given proper treatment people are saying the console isn't capable or it isn't as powerful as what we have had for 6 going on 7 years. There was even a person on here who said we will never see a game like GTA4 run on Wii U saying it isn't capable enough. Also the other side of the extreme are the defenders that are saying the Wii U will be just as powerful as ps4 and next box(yes believe it or not they do exist). I've had fun debating what is and isn't inside of the Wii U but at this point the MAJORITY has decided that this console is doomed. Even though we haven't seen ONE game so far made from ground up on the final dev kit. its fun to speculate but its become like a flame war where there is no middle ground and based on unknowns the console is doomed to fail on a technical level. In reality I just want good games and want developers to take advantage of what's there. That's all I ever asked from a console game developer.

 

[artstyledev]

At this point i would be willing to bet a large sum of money that there wont ever be a Wii U game that digitalfoundry will declare technically superior to even 2006 Gears of War

Thats just how Nintendo rolls. You will not ever know what the hardware could do

Well I think people are missing the things Nintendo HAS said about this console and what it's capable of. If a person goes back and look up the quotes from Iwata, miyamoto, and yes even Reggie is paints a CLEAR picture of what this console was designed to do from a technical level and what is to be expected. Nintendo has never been in it to lie to the consumers about what a console can do. Remember 6th gen when Nintendo gave specs for what GameCube will be able to do (actually running games) and they got crapped on by media and gamers when Sony and Microsoft announced what their consoles would do( not running games)? I think from that point on Nintendo said F it! They understood that was a battle they would never win. They are not going to come out and say their new hardware will run 120fps (Sony) and then in reality the console struggles to keep steady 30fps. So when Nintendo speaks on specs and what console can do I tend to take their word for it instead of just PR lets satisfy what the hardcore wants to hear.