Wii U hardware discussion and investigation *rename

[tongue_of_colicab]

Not this again...

Just no. Those tablets will be costing you 500 euro's, by that time double that of a wiiu. Then you need to buy a extra controller to actually make games not suck which will cost extra money not to mention it remains to be seen how much support there will be for games. Than there is still the question of games themselves. Sure, wiiu games might not look as good but you can be sure there will be plenty of AAA games with tons of gameplay. It still remains a question how this will go on smartphones/tablets (with the exception of win8 tablets that can run x86 games but iSomething tablets will be even more expensive).

So no, tablets/phones being more powerfull isnt going to matter.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Ignoring the 'will Wii U succeed" discussion, there's more detail here, fitting nicely with expectations. DF have had a poke, and Richard thinks the RAM is DDR3. Any way to know for sure? This ties in with a lot of expectation from those ignoring the PR statements - eDRAM is used as the working space on the GPU, meaning a low BW system RAM. Curiously though the CPU is associated with the eDRAM on the MCM. This bodes well for data efficiency in cross-processor workloads, and maybe even goes some way to showing the GPGPU intention, with CPU and GPU working directly on the same data?

One thing I don't understand is the fan layout. The draw is out the back. With the intake on the side, the airflow is hitting the vertical side of the heat-sink. Why didn't they curve the heat-sink fins so the channels run in the intended direction of airflow? Also, what's with the heat-sink shield?? A big block of aluminium isn't enough to suppress electric waves?

 

[Rangers]

It's sort of odd to me Nintendo seemingly dislikes hardware, yet they give us this detailed early hardware look at their pride and joy.

And I dont say they deemphasize hardware lightly, best example was at early Wii U unveils where they literally tried to get journalists to ignore the Wii U boxes under the TV's and focus on the controller as Nintendo considered it the only thing that mattered. The console itself is nothing but a enabling box to Nintendo.

Course later they may have tried to hastily reverse course a bit when people started thinking Wii U was just an add on to the Wii.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

One thing is for sure. The hardware layout and design is damn sexy. It reminds me of PS3 clean motherboard layout.

 

[AlNom]

I have to wonder about Renesas involvement given they stopped internal fabs at around the 40nm node and planned to outsource after that. Keep in mind, they do have considerable experience with flash, microcontrollers, and RF devices for instance.

 

[Grall]

Why didn't they curve the heat-sink fins so the channels run in the intended direction of airflow?

I don't think that matters (all that much). Air is a gas, so it'll flow where the pressure is lower without needing curved channels and whatnot. As we can see from the pictures, they did slant the leading edge of the heatsink fins to create a greater gap for air at the front of the sink where air flow will be the greatest.

Also, what's with the heat-sink shield?? A big block of aluminium isn't enough to suppress electric waves?

I'm curious about that as well. It's something I've never actually seen before (in a consumer product anyway), and I'm a bit wary as well how that thing might work out down the years after getting clogged with dust and whatnot. Nintendo usually puts a (coarse!) fabric filter in the air intake in their fan-equipped consoles; they did with both the GC and the Wii, and presumably also the Wuu, but who can say if that's going to be enough after 3, 4, 5 or maybe more years of service.

...Assuming Nintendo doesn't go bankrupt sooner than that of course. I believe we saw the filter in the E3 interview shots some gaming sites got to do with Nintendo, but that was pre-production hardware after all. Not that I'd really think Ninty would skimp on such a detail though...

Only thing I can really think of is to shield the CONSOLE from the EM output of the tablet antenna... *shrug* That's complete conjecture of course I fully admit. I doubt the Wuu MCM itself is such a huge source of EM output that it actually needs it; no other console or even PC computer with more advanced hardware requires it. Probably just Nintendo being thorough, and going the extra mile even though not strictly needed. They did shield the cartridges for the N64 after all.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't think that matters (all that much). Air is a gas, so it'll flow where the pressure is lower without needing curved channels and whatnot.

It's still affected by flow issues like turbulence. Potentially, the way I see the current layout, air could come in, hit the side of the HS, and be drawn out the back, leaving mostly dead air in the HS space. Curved channels would draw the air exactly where wanted. I can't see any advantage in Nintendo's choice.

 

[Gubbi]

It's still affected by flow issues like turbulence. Potentially, the way I see the current layout, air could come in, hit the side of the HS, and be drawn out the back, leaving mostly dead air in the HS space. Curved channels would draw the air exactly where wanted. I can't see any advantage in Nintendo's choice.

To me, it looks like the heat sink shield is really a duct. If the shield extends all the way to the fan, all the air sucked out of the machine has to go through the HS. That way they also avoid dumping hot air in the box

Cheers

 

[DaSorcerer]

I have to wonder about Renesas involvement given they stopped internal fabs at around the 40nm node and planned to outsource after that. Keep in mind, they do have considerable experience with flash, microcontrollers, and RF devices for instance.

True, funny how I had sit down with a couple of their engineers just over a month ago, I'll be sure to ask them something next we have a meeting, in private of course.

 

[AlNom]

Shifty, not sure I see the problem?

Black is the fins, blue is the air flow. Right side is where the fan is, bottom is the air intake. I thought the shield was just a duct ala 360.


edit: derp, there's an official image

Looks like a duct.

 

[Grall]

Looking at the transparent Wuu images there appears to be a black plastic duct covering the entire heatsink-fan combo. So I really don't think there's going to be any dead air anywhere in there, considering it'll be a wind tunnel-like structure. Also, the fan is unlikely to spin at a ridiculous speed, so air supply into the sink is also unlikely to be constrained by the side air intake.

Nintendo is traditionally quite careful designing its hardware and iterates all the details until they work satisfactorily. I have no doubt this is something they have spent sufficient attention to, in order to avoid any cooling-related red-ring-like hardware problems like Microsoft famously went through for example.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Shifty, not sure I see the problem?

If there's a duct then it doesn't matter. I thought it was like my attached.

 

[MDX]

What Im wondering, how do we know that the CPU is not itself a 3D-IC?

Multi-cores Processor + Cache Memory

Takeda:
I would draw attention to how efficient it is. For a computer to function efficiently, memory hierarchy* structure is very important, and this time the basic memory hierarchy is tightly designed. Although that is an orthodox solution, it makes the foremost feature of this machine's high efficiency.

Nintendo:
a computer transfers and manages data by layering storage, with the CPU at the top, high-speed low-capacity cache memory serving as short-term memory underneath, followed by low-speed large capacity main storage for managing hardware, and auxiliary storage for managing the OS on the bottom.
(I get it that they dont mean literaly)


This is what IBM has been working on:
IBM's "3D system prototype of an eDRAM cache stacked over processor-like logic using through-silicon vias": Like the other two chips, the IBM prototype routes data, clock, and power signals through its layers – what IBM calls "strata" – by means of through-silicon vias (TSVs).

The prototype that IBM presented at ISSCC was a two-strata affair, but the design is intended to be extendable to more cache-memory strata. The design of those cache strata borrows heavily from the Power7's integrated L3 cache, including its embedded DRAM (eDRAM), IP library, logic macros, and design and test flow:

 

[McHuj]

Several things come to mind when I look at those pics.

With 4 memory chips (are there maybe more on the other side of the board?), it's almost guaranteed to be DDR3. If the WiiU has 2GB of RAM, then the only way to get that at present is with 4 4Gb DDR3 chips. With 4 chips, the bus has to be either 64 or 128 bits in width. It be insane to have a 64-bit bus, so with a 128 bit one, we're looking at a total BW of ~17 GB/s (1.066Gbps) to ~30 (1.866Gbps).

360 by comparison has a BW of 22.4 GB/s with GDDR3, using 1.866 Gb/s DDR3 on the same bus, would result in about 33% more system bandwidth.

The total die area for XCGPU (45nm) + EDRAM (65nm) is about 210mm. The total die from these shots and estimates looks to be in that ball park. If you look up 45nm CPU's, transistor density looks to be in the 2-3M/mm range. Assuming 30mm for the WiiU CPU, my guess it's in the 75-100M transistor range. The 360 CPU is 165M transistors. Strip out the VMX units and you're probably in the WiiU 100M guesstimate.

For GPU, the guesstimate on the size 160mm it's either 40nm or 28nm. If it was 45nm, I think the CPU would have been integrated. The 360's edram at 65nm is 45mm and about .22 MB/mm (Yes, I know this includes ROPs), assuming conservative scaling to 40nm (ideally 3X assuming 2X), we'd get about .44Mb/mm. 32MB would take up about 73mm of the total die area. 16MB would be about 36mm.

Would half the die area consumed by EDRAM be reasonable? In the remaining 80-90mm, I bet you could fit about 400 shaders or so.

If it's 40nm, I think a more likely configuration is 480 shaders and 16MB of EDRAM. If it's 28nm, I think it's 32MB of EDRAM and 640 shaders.

Just some rambling speculation.

 

[TheLump]

If there's a duct then it doesn't matter. I thought it was like my attached.

Edit: I see you were referring to the fan sucking air directly from the vent, cutting out the heatsink. Sorry - I misunderstood! But yeah the Duct solves this. My below comments are still valid though, although no longer directly replying to what you said.


I think the attached would only be relevant if there was a fan drawing air in....which correct me if im wrong, but there isnt.

As the fan pulls air through the heatsink fins and is dispelled out of the case, fresh air is pulled through the vents (and air holes which Nintnedo has spaced around the console) to replace that dispelled air. The fact that the air is being pulled through those fins creates an area of negative pressure right in front of the heatsink (opposite side to the fan), meaning the fresh air coming in will tend towards that point and in turn be sucked through the fins. It doesnt really matter so much that the main vent is perpendicular to the direction of the heatsink fins.

Of course it would help if the air were being fed directly through the fins, in a linear fashion, but thats not viable with this layout (optical drive at the front, elongated case etc) I suspect the slant on the heatsink is there to counteract this though.


And the sheild doesn't come out to well on the photos, but its kinda like a mesh or a net with a solid top and doesnt interrupt airflow too much. It's unrelated to the black duct you see in the transparent case photos. Theres a clear shot of the sheild somewhere. Looks like a fine aluminium mesh.

 

[Gipsel]

If there's a duct then it doesn't matter. I thought it was like my attached.

With that proposed shape it would be impossible to use a simpler and really cheap extruded aluminum profile like the Wii U is using now.

 

[Rangers]

Several things come to mind when I look at those pics.

With 4 memory chips (are there maybe more on the other side of the board?), it's almost guaranteed to be DDR3. If the WiiU has 2GB of RAM, then the only way to get that at present is with 4 4Gb DDR3 chips. With 4 chips, the bus has to be either 64 or 128 bits in width. It be insane to have a 64-bit bus, so with a 128 bit one, we're looking at a total BW of ~17 GB/s (1.066Gbps) to ~30 (1.866Gbps).

is it? Looking at picks of 360 motherboards, it appears to have more traces from the memory chips to the package. http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/gadgets/microsoft/valhalla/nakedboard.jpg

Then again it's different types of memory, GDDR3 versus DDR3.

 

[XpiderMX]

is it? Looking at picks of 360 motherboards, it appears to have more traces from the memory chips to the package. http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/gadgets/microsoft/valhalla/nakedboard.jpg

Then again it's different types of memory, GDDR3 versus DDR3.

Is GDDR3 better than DDR3? I guess so.

 

[MrFox]

Could it be 8 chips GDDR3 (or GDDR5) in a clamshell configuration?

 

[Grall]

is it? Looking at picks of 360 motherboards, it appears to have more traces from the memory chips to the package.

The extra traces are to account for development systems that have more memory installed than retail 360s do.