When I was in high school, I thought up the idea of stacking ICs to make a 3D processor, but A) that was 20 years ago so it likely wasn't possible, B) I was a teenager and C) I had no idea how to keep it from melting aside from liquid cooling. Looks like I still don't.
Wii U hardware discussion and investigation *rename
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When I was in high school, I thought up the idea of stacking ICs to make a 3D processor, but A) that was 20 years ago so it likely wasn't possible, B) I was a teenager and C) I had no idea how to keep it from melting aside from liquid cooling. Looks like I still don't.
I don't think that Retro are using UE4.
Seems to be one of the main reason why its taken relatively long for 3D IC to make it from concept to widespread use in consumer electronics (along with cost). I've no idea how they'll cool one of these in a console (not saying they can't, i just havnt read up on air cooling) but liquid seems to be prevelant in other popular solutions.
On such one solution, the way I understand it is each chip will basically have channels etched into it, so that fluid can be fed to each layer of the stack. Kinda neat, but not something we're going to see in consoles yet
Im quite surprised you have not read that article with the same critical eye that you used with the IBM press release. Here is what EG said:
The Wii U's true power has been shrouded in mystery ever since it was announced, with developers working on launch titles gagged by strict non-disclosure agreements and ever shifting development kits. Now, though, as we near launch, final kits are in the wild. And, crucially, developers Eurogamer spoke to as part of a wide-ranging investigation into the innards of the Wii U now have final specifications.
They might have gotten somebody to talk, but were they given actual numbers? Here is what they found out:
The CPU: The Wii U's IBM-made CPU is made up of three Power PC cores. We've been unable to ascertain the clock speed of the CPU (more on this later), but we know out of order execution is supported.
RAM in the final retail unit: 1GB of RAM is available to games.
GPU: The Wii U's graphics processing unit is a custom AMD 7 series GPU. Clock speed and pipelines were not disclosed, but we do know it supports DirectX 10 and shader 4 type features. We also know that eDRAM is embedded in the GPU custom chip in a similar way to the Wii.
They mention eDRAM for GPU, but not CPU. They dont mention which DEVKIT this info is based from, they dont even mention the amount. The only clue to where they based the eDRAM info comes from Digital Foundry, who states:
Mystery surrounds the fast eDRAM attached to the GPU too. There's 32MB of it, compared to the 10MB in the Xbox 360
Mystery indeed. Sounds like they are are speculating on the same rumors we have read about. DF does not source how they came up with this info about the GPU. Therefore, I can't take that EG article seriously, definately not a confirmation for anything. I place it's info under reporting rumors.
The IBM press release is a far better source of info as it comes straight from the horses mouth. EDRAM definately there for the CPU. GPU, probable, but it's anyone's guess as it has not been confirmed.
Megadrive1988
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Can anyone remember a console shrouded by this level of secrecy? I sure cannot.
Seems to be one of the main reason why its taken relatively long for 3D IC to make it from concept to widespread use in consumer electronics (along with cost). I've no idea how they'll cool one of these in a console (not saying they can't, i just havnt read up on air cooling) but liquid seems to be prevelant in other popular solutions.
On such one solution, the way I understand it is each chip will basically have channels etched into it, so that fluid can be fed to each layer of the stack. Kinda neat, but not something we're going to see in consoles yet
It might work, but I'm not sure if having fluid inside the actual chip is a good idea or not. If that is actually doable, then the channels could feed lines that run into a condenser under a fan/heatsink.
Wii
People didn't even believe the specs after they were released from the developer docs.
There were even few rumors (around 05' E3) where "Nintendo Revolution" was more powerful than 360. Remember that there was one poster on GAF saying
"They didn't codename chips Hollywood and Broadway for nothing, it will be very powerful"...something along those lines
But Nintendo stuff not leaking is interesting, more so than MS's stuff leaking left and right. MS seems to be too "easy" on the leaks. They didn't even sue the guy who hacked OG Xbox and release code on his blog.
Hell, Crytek's lead Technical Designer leaked Durango's codename and mentioned "great meet-up in London" on twitter yet he is still working there. I guess those Redmond guys are quite lighthearted
There were even few rumors (around 05' E3) where "Nintendo Revolution" was more powerful than 360. Remember that there was one poster on GAF saying
"They didn't codename chips Hollywood and Broadway for nothing, it will be very powerful"...something along those lines
But Nintendo stuff not leaking is interesting, more so than MS's stuff leaking left and right. MS seems to be too "easy" on the leaks. They didn't even sue the guy who hacked OG Xbox and release code on his blog.
Hell, Crytek's lead Technical Designer leaked Durango's codename and mentioned "great meet-up in London" on twitter yet he is still working there. I guess those Redmond guys are quite lighthearted
Or they're planned...
Leaks generate hype and interest, hype and interest sell machines
Someone already mentioned that leaking several "specs" would be smart thing to do for a company. When you have specs that go from HD6670 to HD7970, competition is left guessing.Or they're planned...
Leaks generate hype and interest, hype and interest sell machines
Although, I think they know each other plans very well. Programmers talk to each other and eventually it comes to manufacturers, although probably too late.
In the case of Sean Tracy, I don't think it was planned or intentional. Although it did look a bit "baffling". Guy comes home from big, top secret developer summit regarding next gen system and first thing he does is he puts a post on twitter describing it and giving codenames.
I think you'd be surprised, they have access to about as much information about the other as you do. I do think that people involved have somewhat better filters than some people on here.
Secrecy is taken very seriously by all the players, including MS.
Most leaks come from IME mostly none technical people at 3rd parties.
The rate of leaks is directly proportional to the number of people with information, MS has historically been more open with developers earlier, specifically shipping tons of alpha kits, so they get more leaks.
Nintendo is unfortunately a minor player at 3rd parties now, so the stuff gets less exposure and less leaks. When Wii devkits shipped to 3rd parties, If I'd cared I could have walked downstairs and asked what the specs were, I didn't because I knew it was very weak and I had no interest in it.
People talk but I'd never ask my friends at MS or a 3rd party what the specs for 720 are nor would I expect them to ask me what Sony's next gen console is like.
Occasionally people are moronic and let code names slip either when talking to the press or these days in social media. Companies go under, devkits get lost or stolen, but all of it is multiplied by the number of people with devkits or with the associated information.
I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't thinking that you would talk with someone from 343i for example and just told each other companies plans, more like someone from big 3rd party studio. Not necessary entire specs, just hints if they think one of them is lacking in some sort and they want to have easier development once next gen starts with something closer to parity.
Since EA, Ubisoft and other big companies already have Alpha Kits, it would surprise me that no one from Sony or MS hears nothing about their competitor. Than again, I don't know how many kits get sent out and if there is even studio secrecy on those and just selected people work on them.
This doesn't seem true to me. In the other aspect of this site, PC GPU's, I notice AMD and Nvidia always seem to release products that more or less indicate they knew what the other was up to.
By the same token, I notice MS and Sony seemed to know Wii U wasn't any real threat to the PS3/360 (eg, it wasn't extremely more powerful) very early on.
They were very blase and unworried about the whole Wii U thing for past many months and it's proving out as so far it just looks like a 360+. From the outside it seems like they knew exactly what it was to me.
I'm sure I'm wrong and you're right though.
I think a lot of it is language barrier and cultural. I think it's a lot easier for Sony and Nintendo to hide stuff from us because for starters, we dont speak Japanese. Then there's the cultural part, guessing secrecy, honor, whatever are a bigger deal in Japan.
I think the leaks related to Nintendo/Sony typically happen once their products get in Western third parties hands. Which is something they cannot really do anything about.
He is? Heard he got fired, guess thats why you cant trust the internet. Anyways, I personally think firing someone over such a trivial mistake that is irrelevant to 99.999% of the population would be overreaction. Durango is semi-officially known now, Bink recently mentioned it etc, are you going to fire them?
Megadrive1988
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Li Mu Bai: is there an ETA on your thread? Looking forward to it.
Its a beutifully simple design (no doubt complex to put into practice though!) Really quite elegant.
And now that you mention it, it may be that this is designed to interact with conventional heat dispersion techniqies (fan/heatsinks). Im not too hot on liquid cooling (no pun intended): Does the liquid have to be replenished? If its a closed system and the liquid is effectively being used as a thermal compound, then I guess its not quite as unlikely to end up in consumer electronics. But if its actually circulating liquid around (which is what I assumed) a la PC liquid coolers, then i'm not too confident it will become viable this generation.
Anyone know of any non-liquid cooling solutions for stacked chips which might be doable in a console?
Closed systems are used in heat-pipes and vapour-chambers. The problem i see with channels to access each layer of a stack is they'd be very small, making it very hard for fluid to flow and evaporate and get out again. I think liquid cooling would have to work on the surface of the chip, with heat conducting through each layer. With the layer so thin, is that really such a problem? Dunno what the thermal conductivity of the silicon is.
Yeah thats the probelm I weas seeing. Once it gets to such a small level, how efficient can the flow rate be, if it can flow at all?
Either way, this seems to be the process thats being mooted here
http://www.monolithic3d.com/3d-chip-cooling.html
And here:
http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4077160/IBM-GIT-demo-3D-die-with-microchannel-cooling
Intersteing quote from the first link:
Phase cool everything
I dream of a world where we dont worry about components overheating, but about freezing them solid with our liquid helium decompression units ><
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