Well, it's the same on Swedish layouts, and I have no problems with it. After a "{" you usually hit Enter. Not sure how others do, but I put the "}" there right away. So with the left hand I do the AltGr-7 and Enter with the right hand. It usually goes AltGr-7 - Enter - Enter - AltGr-0 and is done within a second. The only thing about it is maybe that it's "{ [ ] }", rather than "{}[]" which would make more sense IMHO.
Why do they use a comma , for a decimal place in Europe?
- Thread starter Blastman
- Start date
Snyder:
indeed, I also find the AltGr key to be inconveniently placed, but it's by no means the only one. But such problems are easily fixed by re-programming the keyboard using Microsofts Keyboard Layout Creator (see http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/tools/msklc.mspx) or, my foavourite, the Keyboard Layout Manager (http://www.klm.freeservers.com).
The Microsoft program only lets you re-program the alphanumeric keys, but the KLM also lets you program some shift and lock keys, the numpad, media keys etc. You can also define ligatures and accent key tables. AltGr and Shift-AltGr levels are available, and these can even be made caps-lock sensitive.
As for the AltGr key, if you have a Windows keyboard with the extra keys between the space bar and the Ctrl keys, you can use KLM to redefine the left Windows key as another AltGr key; I think that would fix your problem. Other tweaks I have implemented: move NumLock to the Scroll Lock key (which I never use) and put "=" on the old NumLock key (very useful in Excel); use the numpad "+" key as Tab; æ on AltGr ä (and Æ on AltGr Ä, of course), Polish letters (only works in Windows 2000 & XP which are Unicode enabled); proper quotation marks (also known as "curly quotes"), richtige Gänsefüßchen, an "ß" on my Swiss-German keyboard, long-s "ſ" (may not appear properly on your browser), etc. Great fun.
indeed, I also find the AltGr key to be inconveniently placed, but it's by no means the only one. But such problems are easily fixed by re-programming the keyboard using Microsofts Keyboard Layout Creator (see http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/tools/msklc.mspx) or, my foavourite, the Keyboard Layout Manager (http://www.klm.freeservers.com).
The Microsoft program only lets you re-program the alphanumeric keys, but the KLM also lets you program some shift and lock keys, the numpad, media keys etc. You can also define ligatures and accent key tables. AltGr and Shift-AltGr levels are available, and these can even be made caps-lock sensitive.
As for the AltGr key, if you have a Windows keyboard with the extra keys between the space bar and the Ctrl keys, you can use KLM to redefine the left Windows key as another AltGr key; I think that would fix your problem. Other tweaks I have implemented: move NumLock to the Scroll Lock key (which I never use) and put "=" on the old NumLock key (very useful in Excel); use the numpad "+" key as Tab; æ on AltGr ä (and Æ on AltGr Ä, of course), Polish letters (only works in Windows 2000 & XP which are Unicode enabled); proper quotation marks (also known as "curly quotes"), richtige Gänsefüßchen, an "ß" on my Swiss-German keyboard, long-s "ſ" (may not appear properly on your browser), etc. Great fun.
I also dislike the placement of {[]}. AltGr-7 must be one of the most awkward key combinations I can imagine. I prefer to move {} to AltGr+the keys to the right of 'L' ('Ö' and 'Ä'), and [] to the keys to the right of 'M' ('.' and '-').
I'd love to have a '=' over at the numerical keypad, but no way that I'd pay $79 for it (KLM).
The best would of course be a complete redesign of the layout, moving the keys to more effective/more comfortable positions. Not just swapping the meaning of current keys. There's so much that could be better.
I'd love to have a '=' over at the numerical keypad, but no way that I'd pay $79 for it (KLM).
The best would of course be a complete redesign of the layout, moving the keys to more effective/more comfortable positions. Not just swapping the meaning of current keys. There's so much that could be better.
"The best would of course be a complete redesign of the layout"
Indeed. The ideal would be a single layout for all latin-script based languages... which is about as likely as everyone speaking Esperanto. One can but hope... (sorry!). Although I suppose that the default US layout could be said to be the most used. But with programs like KLM anyone can redesign their keyboard layout as they see fit, promoting symbols they use frequently to level-one (no shift) postions etc.
But why stop at redesigning the software layout? Why not go the whole hog and redesign the hardware side of it too? The four-staggered-rows-plus-space-bar layout is also a hangover from ye olde worlde mechanical keyboards. Why stagger the rows at all? How about an extra row above the numbers (my home-built keyboard has one with brackets, currency signs, "curly" quotes, &, @, * and other useful stuff)? There are many "natural" keyboards about, but they are are mostly based on the same number and arrangement of keys as the standard.
Indeed. The ideal would be a single layout for all latin-script based languages... which is about as likely as everyone speaking Esperanto. One can but hope... (sorry!). Although I suppose that the default US layout could be said to be the most used. But with programs like KLM anyone can redesign their keyboard layout as they see fit, promoting symbols they use frequently to level-one (no shift) postions etc.
But why stop at redesigning the software layout? Why not go the whole hog and redesign the hardware side of it too? The four-staggered-rows-plus-space-bar layout is also a hangover from ye olde worlde mechanical keyboards. Why stagger the rows at all? How about an extra row above the numbers (my home-built keyboard has one with brackets, currency signs, "curly" quotes, &, @, * and other useful stuff)? There are many "natural" keyboards about, but they are are mostly based on the same number and arrangement of keys as the standard.
glappkaeft
Newcomer
Basic said:
You can easily find an English keyboard in Sweden. I'm quite happy with mine but then I write mostly in English and know the Swedish keyboard layout by heart (and åäö is really all you need). I use the English layout as the default and use ALT+SHIFT if I write a long Swedish text or write my name. The only thing that doesn't work is the "<>" key between the left shift key and the z key since there isn't one on a English keyboard but you shouldn't be handcoding HTML using Latin-1 using Swedish characters anyway...
Before I got the English keyboard I used a Swedish keyboard with the English mapping when prgraming but then you must really know the English layout (not a problem for me because of C64s and SUN boxen with compose keys).
Patrik Holmström
glappkaeft
Newcomer
Humus said:
Things are messier than I thought. The only non-standard unit I can recall is used in Sweden is the "mil", which however is 10km, so it fits right in anyway.
But the Swedish mile used to be 36000 Swedish feet or 10688,54 m back when we like any selfrespecting country rolled our own feet, miles, pounds, etc.
Patrik Holmström
So a Swedish foot is smaller than a Brit one... Is that also proportional to other parts of the body?
(Sorry couldn't resist)
(Sorry couldn't resist)
Dogmatix:
I might have expressed myself in a bad way, but that's what I meant. Staggered keys are there to make way for mechanical arms, and useless for modern keyboards.
But I guess one reason for why it won't change is right before us.
Not only is there a lot of invested knowledge in how to operate a qwerty keyboard, but there's so many conflicting ideas on how to make it better.
You talk about adding another row. I would rather reduce the number of keys, but make more kinds of shift keys easily available (two key clusters for the thumbs). The thumbs are the most versatile fingers, but together they have the responsibility to press only one key. Pressing all keys in the same direction (down) isn't nessecarily the best either. Even though you might not want to go all the way and have sideways keys for all fingers (like the datahand).
A strong point for the qwerty keyboard is that it's equally bad for everyone.
I might have expressed myself in a bad way, but that's what I meant. Staggered keys are there to make way for mechanical arms, and useless for modern keyboards.
But I guess one reason for why it won't change is right before us.
Not only is there a lot of invested knowledge in how to operate a qwerty keyboard, but there's so many conflicting ideas on how to make it better.
You talk about adding another row. I would rather reduce the number of keys, but make more kinds of shift keys easily available (two key clusters for the thumbs). The thumbs are the most versatile fingers, but together they have the responsibility to press only one key. Pressing all keys in the same direction (down) isn't nessecarily the best either. Even though you might not want to go all the way and have sideways keys for all fingers (like the datahand).
A strong point for the qwerty keyboard is that it's equally bad for everyone.
Glappkæft:
I think you mean that you use a US keyboard, not an English one. The English (as in UK or British) layout is mechanically like the European ones, i.e. it has a short left shift with another key between that and the "z", whereas the US keyboard has a long left shift (which I actually prefer); and the UK keyboard also has a vertical "enter" key on the main part of the keyboard, whereas US keyboards usually have a horizontal "enter" key with a 1½-width key above it (although some have an enormous "enter" key, but then two keys where our double-width backspace is). Thus US keyboards have one key less than European ones.
There are also some European keyboards with enormous an "enter" key, but with a shorther right shift key and a normal key to the right of that.
Incidentally, the E.U. committee which made recommendations on the placement of the new Euro sign on keyboards recommended that, in the long term, the right shift should be shortened and the Euro key be placed between the right shift and the dash (that's to the right of the full stop (known as a period in American)). This seems odd to me: to my mind, the Euro symbol, like the pound and dollar symbols, belongs in front of the amount, not after it, thus: €99.99, not 99,99€ as written in Germany, so the eruo (and pound and dollar) symbols really ought to be somewhere on the left (for example, on that key above Tab). But that doesn't concern you in Sweden.... yet.
Basic:
there is one layout which nearly does as you suggest: the Canadian International or Multilingual layout uses the right Ctrl key as an extra shift state, with Shift+Ctrl another possibility (you can see that on the Microsoft link I gave before). According to the Microsoft site I mentioned earlier in this thread, a futher three shift states are technically possible. The only problem then is how to print all those symbols on each key without cluttering...
By the way, if the necessary finger-gymnastics for shift-AltGr combinations are proving awkward, Windows 2000 and XP have a "sticky" shift feature which means you can, for example, press shift follwed by another key, rather than both at once. Could take some getting used to.
I think you mean that you use a US keyboard, not an English one. The English (as in UK or British) layout is mechanically like the European ones, i.e. it has a short left shift with another key between that and the "z", whereas the US keyboard has a long left shift (which I actually prefer); and the UK keyboard also has a vertical "enter" key on the main part of the keyboard, whereas US keyboards usually have a horizontal "enter" key with a 1½-width key above it (although some have an enormous "enter" key, but then two keys where our double-width backspace is). Thus US keyboards have one key less than European ones.
There are also some European keyboards with enormous an "enter" key, but with a shorther right shift key and a normal key to the right of that.
Incidentally, the E.U. committee which made recommendations on the placement of the new Euro sign on keyboards recommended that, in the long term, the right shift should be shortened and the Euro key be placed between the right shift and the dash (that's to the right of the full stop (known as a period in American)). This seems odd to me: to my mind, the Euro symbol, like the pound and dollar symbols, belongs in front of the amount, not after it, thus: €99.99, not 99,99€ as written in Germany, so the eruo (and pound and dollar) symbols really ought to be somewhere on the left (for example, on that key above Tab). But that doesn't concern you in Sweden.... yet.
Basic:
there is one layout which nearly does as you suggest: the Canadian International or Multilingual layout uses the right Ctrl key as an extra shift state, with Shift+Ctrl another possibility (you can see that on the Microsoft link I gave before). According to the Microsoft site I mentioned earlier in this thread, a futher three shift states are technically possible. The only problem then is how to print all those symbols on each key without cluttering...
By the way, if the necessary finger-gymnastics for shift-AltGr combinations are proving awkward, Windows 2000 and XP have a "sticky" shift feature which means you can, for example, press shift follwed by another key, rather than both at once. Could take some getting used to.
Sorry if I'm picky. But while I'd like the keyboard to be "compressed" by using more kinds of shift keys, I don't want it if the shift keys are placed as suboptimal as now. They should be placed somewhere low center, easily accessible for the thumbs. Not in some awkward position for the pinkys.
So I really want a physically different keyboard.
So I really want a physically different keyboard.