Why are games not 768p native?

[granrooster]

I am planning to buy my PS3 in March but i can afford only a 32" HDTV LCD with a resolution of 1366x768. I know behind the box most games have native resolution of 1280x720p. Why are developers not making games at 768p a native resolution in most HDTV in the market, why leave it to upscale inside the HDTV algorithm software?

720p -> 768p will i have to live with fatten pixels and lossy sharpness?

720p -> 1080p I understand the 1080p native games will look jaw dropping, should i wait for 1080p HDTV to fall in prices but live with a bigger 720p upscaling?

 

[Rolf N]

720p is the standard resolution, so the target of your complaint (which I can sympathize with, because it affects me as well) should be the panel manufacturers. There is no marketable reason to build panels that should display 720p with 768 physical lines. It's an el-cheapo manufacturing hack, to go as quickly as possible from 1024x768 PC monitor panels to TVs, that has somehow managed to establish itself even with larger panels. It boggles the mind how these crazy things always manage to happen in CE.

I'd really prefer to have the image unstretched with black bars -- 24 pixels lost above and below, 43 left and right doesn't sound so bad, does it? Not sure if my TV can do that, but I don't think so.

 

[Tim]

720p is the standard resolution, so the target of your complaint (which I can sympathize with, because it affects me as well) should be the panel manufacturers. There is no marketable reason to build panels that should display 720p with 768 physical lines. It's an el-cheapo manufacturing hack, to go as quickly as possible from 1024x768 PC monitor panels to TVs, that has somehow managed to establish itself even with larger panels. It boggles the mind how these crazy things always manage to happen in CE.

I think he talking about the very very common 1366x768 panels made for TVs - and I am not talking about el-cheapo manufacturers, not about panels made for PC-monitors.

 

[Rolf N]

I think he talking about the very very common 1366x768 panels made for TVs - and I am not talking about el-cheapo manufacturers, not about panels made for PC-monitors.

Yes, I know, I have a 1366x768 panel in my TV too.
It's just there isn't any technical reason for that panel resolution. There are too many pixels there, and besides the issues with scaling losses, more pixels surely must cost more money, not less.
I think that the reason for this development is purely historic. At one point there was a crossover between PC display panels and (small) HDTV panels, where economies of scale made it a viable choice to use the "wrong" resolution. And that somehow still goes on, maybe to avoid redesigning electronics that have been carefully adapted to the res, or maybe just as a self-fulfilling prophecy: everyone makes 1366x768 panels, so they are cheap and cheerful while (rare? nonexistant?) 720p panels are more expensive even though they are less complex.

 

[archie4oz]

And that somehow still goes on, maybe to avoid redesigning electronics that have been carefully adapted to the res, or maybe just as a self-fulfilling prophecy: everyone makes 1366x768 panels, so they are cheap and cheerful while (rare? nonexistant?) 720p panels are more expensive even though they are less complex.

Actually Sony's lower end LCD RPTVs are all proper 1280x720 (although oddly the direct view panels are still 1366x768).

 

[Paul_G]

Why are the panel manufacturers wrong? Hasn't 768 been a part of PC standard resolutions far longer then 720? I would have thought it made far more sense to have 768p since at least that part of the resolution already exists.

I'm sure someone is going to give me a really good reason why now, but it has been something i've wondered too

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Why are the panel manufacturers wrong?

Because it's not a TV resolution, and the primary use of TVs is to display TV content at TV resolution. 768p is fine for PC displays, but not TVs. They should be making 768p panels for monitors, and 720p panels for 720p TVs.

 

[Paul_G]

Because it's not a TV resolution, and the primary use of TVs is to display TV content at TV resolution. 768p is fine for PC displays, but not TVs. They should be making 768p panels for monitors, and 720p panels for 720p TVs.

But this issue with the 1080i only CRTs in the US not being compatible with the PS3 is because 720p was not a standard at the time isn't it? So when the time came to make a standard, why did they choose 720 rather than 768?

Also, the convergence between PC display and TV display, for instance with HTPC's makes your solution impractical doesn't it?

 

[Clockwork]

But this issue with the 1080i only CRTs in the US not being compatible with the PS3 is because 720p was not a standard at the time isn't it? So when the time came to make a standard, why did they choose 720 rather than 768?

Also, the convergence between PC display and TV display, for instance with HTPC's makes your solution impractical doesn't it?

720p was designed at AT&T Bell Laboratories in the late 1980s, under the supervision of Arun Netravali. The project began when Zenith approached AT&T to partner in the design of an analog HDTV format, comparable to the Japanese system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/720p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV

Not to mention, last time I checked my DLP television is 1280x720 native. Are you suggesting people cater just to LCD manufacturers?

 

[hongcho]

Why are games not 768p native?

I think an alternative question to ask is, why aren't the display makers making 720p or 1080p panels?

TV (which is where console games are mostly played) resolution does not include "768p". This is a computer monitor resolution. For a PC game, 768p seems to make a perfect sense.

Hong.

 

[Paul_G]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/720p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDTV

Not to mention, last time I checked my DLP television is 1280x720 native. Are you suggesting people cater just to LCD manufacturers?

Thanks for that. So if 720p was a standard for so long, why on earth were those 1080i only sets even made?

The only thing i'm ultimately suggesting is PC panel makers and TV panel makers get their act together and come up with some sensible way that does not involve scaling to make sure whether it's 1366x768 or 1280x720, they pick one and stick to it. Having one resolution for the PC and another for TV seems to be an idea with very little going for it, especially since one day your PC may well be the thing feeding your TV signal.

 

[Pigman BABY!!!]

I am planning to buy my PS3 in March but i can afford only a 32" HDTV LCD with a resolution of 1366x768. I know behind the box most games have native resolution of 1280x720p. Why are developers not making games at 768p a native resolution in most HDTV in the market, why leave it to upscale inside the HDTV algorithm software?

720p -> 768p will i have to live with fatten pixels and lossy sharpness?

720p -> 1080p I understand the 1080p native games will look jaw dropping, should i wait for 1080p HDTV to fall in prices but live with a bigger 720p upscaling?

Very good question which I also don't understand.
Almost no HDTV supports 720p as it's nattive resolution yet they all support it.

This while the nattive resolution of almost every HDTV is supported.

Makes absolutely no sense if you ask me.

 

[Clockwork]

Very good question which I also don't understand.
Almost no HDTV supports 720p as it's nattive resolution yet they all support it.

This while the nattive resolution of almost every HDTV is supported.

Makes absolutely no sense if you ask me.

It's easier and cheaper to manufacture the lcd's this way based on the way the factories are set up.

Example: Take a 1024x768 XGA panel. Is it easer to directly scale this to a 16x9 display be extending it horizontally to 1366 pixels, or would it be easer to have to modify both the height (down to 720) and the width (up to 1280 pixels)?

 

[Bigus Dickus]

Almost no HDTV supports 720p as it's nattive resolution yet they all support it.

??

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. DLP has a significant slice of the HDTV market, and while there have been a few early 640x480 chips, a few early PC aimed 1024 x 768 chips, a "budget" "half-res" 960 x 540 chip, and the latest generation of true 1080p 1920 x 1080 chips, the vast majority of DLP chips aimed at the home television market, spanning multiple generations and several years, have been 1280 x 720 resolution.

In almost any sense I can think of that contradicts the "almost no HDTV" statement. CRT based HDTV's (and projectors) have also properly supported 720p for many years. It's the quirky LCD manufacturers who can't seem to get their act together.

I think this problem is transitional however, as it seems that "proper" 1920 x 1080 LCD/LCoS panels are being manufactured for the 1080p generation. No more funky PC-inspired/compromised resolutions, I hope, in the future.

 

[infinity4]

I am planning to buy my PS3 in March but i can afford only a 32" HDTV LCD with a resolution of 1366x768. I know behind the box most games have native resolution of 1280x720p. Why are developers not making games at 768p a native resolution in most HDTV in the market, why leave it to upscale inside the HDTV algorithm software?

720p -> 768p will i have to live with fatten pixels and lossy sharpness?

720p -> 1080p I understand the 1080p native games will look jaw dropping, should i wait for 1080p HDTV to fall in prices but live with a bigger 720p upscaling?

i saw some hdtvs have resolution of 1280x720 not 1366x768. wouldn't these tvs forced to use 480p if games were 768p standard???

also does anyone know why japanese tvs have slightly higher resolution???

in japan 720p => 750p
1080p => 1125p

i just don't know why

 

[Clockwork]

also does anyone know why japanese tvs have slightly higher resolution???

1080p => 1125p

Are you talking about this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_sub-nyquist_sampling_Encoding_system

Japan had the earliest working HDTV system, with design efforts going back to 1979. The country began broadcasting analog HDTV signals in the early 1990s using an interlaced resolution of 1035 or 1080 active lines (1035i) or 1125 total lines.

The Japanese system, developed by NHK Science and Technical Research Laboratories (STRL) in the 1980s, employed filtering tricks to reduce the original source signal to decrease bandwidth utilization. MUSE was marketed as "Hi-Vision" by NHK.

Japanese broadcast engineers immediately rejected conventional vestigial sideband broadcasting for well-founded technical reasons.
It was decided early on that MUSE would be a satellite broadcast format as Japan economically supports satellite broadcasting

MUSE is a 1125 line system (1035 visible), and is not pulse and sync compatible with the digital 1080 line system used by modern HDTV. Originally, it was a 1125 line, interlaced, 60 Hz, system with a 5/3((1.66:1) aspect ratio and an optimal viewing distance of roughly 3.3H.

That is the old analog system.


??

 

[infinity4]

i haven't got a clue what that is saying about

 

[archie4oz]

Also keep in mind that analog systems include retrace timing in their resolution specs...

 

[Albuquerque]

Just throwing in my experience...

All of Hitachi's LCD rear-projection units (that aren't 1080P) are 1280x720 panels. My 50v500 uses three greyscale 8-bit LCD panels (one for each primary color) that are each 1280x720.

So, it's not all LCD panel HDTV's either.

 

[ban25]

I am planning to buy my PS3 in March but i can afford only a 32" HDTV LCD with a resolution of 1366x768. I know behind the box most games have native resolution of 1280x720p. Why are developers not making games at 768p a native resolution in most HDTV in the market, why leave it to upscale inside the HDTV algorithm software?

720p -> 768p will i have to live with fatten pixels and lossy sharpness?

720p -> 1080p I understand the 1080p native games will look jaw dropping, should i wait for 1080p HDTV to fall in prices but live with a bigger 720p upscaling?

If you're on a budget, pick up the 37" Westinghouse (LVM-37w3), it's 1080p and will be substantially better than a smaller lower resolution panel.