When enough is enough (AF quality on g70)

[Ailuros]

If you use OGSS, then you aren't going to be able to get rid of all of those types of artifacts because your samples aren't being placed optimally. Essentially what you need is anisotropic filtering of the shader results.

While I realize what you mean, 16x SSAA isn't exactly a low sample density. It gets a lot better but it doesn't get eliminated.

Would AF on the shader cost a lot in performance (at least theoretically)?

 

[OpenGL guy]

While I realize what you mean, 16x SSAA isn't exactly a low sample density. It gets a lot better but it doesn't get eliminated.

But you're only taking 4 samples in the direction that needs the most help.

Would AF on the shader cost a lot in performance (at least theoretically)?

If you limit yourself to 16x anisotropy, then the cost could be much higher than the 16x OGSS you tried earlier. However, the shader could be adaptive (which OGSS cannot be) so it could take less samples in places where it's not needed, similar to how most AF algorithms work on textures.

 

[KimB]

Well, since there are ways to approximate MIP mapping with bump maps in the shader, one could just make use of the available anisotropic hardware along with MIPped bump mapping.

Edit: approximating MIP mapping for bump mapping basically consists of using the resultant length of the averaged vector to approximate how much the surface normal diverged over the pixel.

 

[Ailuros]

But you're only taking 4 samples in the direction that needs the most help.

Hmmmm....

http://web.onetel.net.uk/~simonnihal/assorted3d/samppat.html

(no jittered grids don't count here...)

If you limit yourself to 16x anisotropy, then the cost could be much higher than the 16x OGSS you tried earlier. However, the shader could be adaptive (which OGSS cannot be) so it could take less samples in places where it's not needed, similar to how most AF algorithms work on textures.

Interesting; and why haven't developers bothered so far if they have to use such weird shader patterns anyway? If really often wonder if developers can't see the moire once they're done with a scene. No the end result doesn't look better than a damn simplistic floor texture w/o any sophisticated bumpmaps.

 

[KimB]

Interesting; and why haven't developers bothered so far if they have to use such weird shader patterns anyway? If really often wonder if developers can't see the moire once they're done with a scene. No the end result doesn't look better than a damn simplistic floor texture w/o any sophisticated bumpmaps.

Well, we're still only in the first generation of true shader-based games, so developers are just happy to get the materials running. Visual refinement will come later, once we get some nice, robust shader libraries out there along with GUI tools to allow the artists to put complex shaders together without doing any programming (and even then it may take a generation after those libraries are first available).

 

[Ailuros]

Well, we're still only in the first generation of true shader-based games, so developers are just happy to get the materials running. Visual refinement will come later, once we get some nice, robust shader libraries out there along with GUI tools to allow the artists to put complex shaders together without doing any programming (and even then it may take a generation after those libraries are first available).

That's not an "excuse" at all IMHO. Vastly oversimplyfied the use of shaders is to make surfaces or an environment look better; if you don't carefully select the content or fine-tune it to avoid side-effects, then it actually defys the original purpose.

 

[Sharkfood]

Vastly oversimplyfied the use of shaders is to make surfaces or an environment look better;

Hrmm.. I'd have to disagree with that assumption.

From what we've been seeing, the inclusion or use of shaders seems more to be like a "checkbox" for technical consumer praise. "Wow dude, it uses shaders!"- to thus offset their expense in hardware upgrades.

Niftier water seems to be the best use so far.. everything else is pretty damn ugly at this point, honestly.

 

[Ailuros]

Then you don't actually disagree; you just put it in a different perspective

 

[KimB]

That's not an "excuse" at all IMHO. Vastly oversimplyfied the use of shaders is to make surfaces or an environment look better; if you don't carefully select the content or fine-tune it to avoid side-effects, then it actually defys the original purpose.

And the problem, I'm saying, is that artists don't program. That's why I said we'll get these things when we have programs that put the control of the shaders in the hands of the artists.

 

[Ailuros]

Nothing against that; but it still doesn't mean that artists and programmers work both in isolated environments and never communicate heh.