What is the problem with todays developers ??

At the risk of showing my age I mean seriously I'm having a real problem today looking at what developers are doing with all this rendering and processor power.

I'm speaking about games like Quake 1 and Duke Nukem 3D for example, I know Duke was not really a 3D game but it still looks pretty good even today :-?
These games ran on 486 Dx66's and Pentium 90's with very poor 3Drendering (Duke3D didn't even need a 3D accelerator) and the game was FUN to play ??
So know we have a Athlon Xp or P4 doing 2 Billion Instructions per second or possibly 200 times more power than a 486 and commercial 3D cards that would put some professional rendering cards to shame and see systems struggling to run... is it bad coding or what ?? :-?



glduke2.jpg
 
Get the GLQuake engine and use a lot of large precompressed textures and it will be better than many games today.

But Duke Nukem was really fun ;)
 
Doomtrooper said:
is it bad coding or what ?? :-?

Good question. I have seen some games released in 02 that would have looked crap at best even if rleased in 97!

This is where the consoles really do excel, I mean even if the hardware isn't up to PC standards, atleast the developers push the hardware to the absolute limit. Take a look at GT3 on PS2, awesome.
 
Fuz said:
Good question. I have seen some games released in 02 that would have looked crap at best even if rleased in 97!
Don't forget that any Joe Shmoe can create a PC game, but for consoles you have to get licenses to release the game. Also, consoles are not immune to the "ugly game" syndrome.
 
I'm no coder, just a player but I can't believe if we had games like the two I mentioned in 1996 and still really we haven't improved a whole lot compared to the hardware.
 
a few issues perhaps that maybe contribute

1.) Game development time, a really good game will take 4 years to completely make. There are so many games rushed out these days that are just piss poor, bugs, crapy code, bad graphics. A lot happens within the time a game is concieved and start the coding on until the game is actually released. Graphics cards these days improve tremendously. So by the time the game comes out it's already outdated with the hardware available. Just look at how we have hardly touched the surface of DX8. OpenGL is much more flexible with such things but even still. Now that DX9 is on the horizon DX8 games are JUST starting to come out sorta lol.

2.) Because we have increased in CPU and GPU power with much more memory coders are getting sloppy. Back in the day you had to be REAL carefull of the code you made, you had to fit it all into a small memory area, therefore you made sure your code was clean, bug free, and as SMALL as can be. Today though with all the CPU power and memory we have we have HUGE BLOATED code out there, lines of junk just all messed up. And that causes a lot of bugs and crap these days, just sloppy.

Of course there are prolly more issues, but these are 2 that I always think of with issues like this.
 
I think... good hardwares do not warrent good graphics. It's good artists who provide good graphics, not good hardwares. Good hardwares make things possible (you can't do good 3D graphics with a 6502). However, you still need good artists to provide good graphics.

I don't thinkg GLQuake or Duke Nukem 3D are "pretty" by today's standard. Take some recently released games, for example, Neverwinter Nights and Warcraft III, they are considerably better than GLQuake and DUke Nukem 3D, IMHO.

For the "fun factor" of games, I think it is some sort of "age phenomena." :) For example, I considered Pacman, Lode Runner, and Elite were fun games. They are good, but not as good by today's standard. Today's game players demand much complex and better games, but without revolutionary advance in gameplay, players will always think new games are "not as good" as some old games they played first in their early age.
 
Not defending lazy devs but you have to put the things you don't see into consideration. IE: Physics in today's games is far more stressfull than in games 10 years which had no physics.
Also Brent is right as well. Coders have become sloppy (not saying JC or TS are, actually JC puts tromendus amount of time and effort into his coding, same with Tim). The ones that become sloppy are: coders who are greedy and lazy (ie: only in business for money, coders who are lazy assed mofos who don't want to add something because it will take them an extra 10mins or just can't be stuffed debugging (you will be amazed what you can find by debugging ;)). Of course sometimes it isn't the coders fault. take EA and Ultima 9. EA had given Origin a strict release date so Origin had to get it out the door in that amount of time otherwise EA will not publish the game.

PS: Can someone please give me the link to the page to dld GLDUKE? :)
 
Pcchen I agree, hardware doesn't bring good graphics, but maybe thats what I'm getting at, there isn't enough artists to go around. Yet based on CPU speed/graphic cards you would think a game like Warcraft 1 which was pretty detailed in its day then compare it to Warcraft 3, you would think Warcraft 3 would run 300 fps on a modern 3D card...but it doesn't :)
 
Games haven't improved much at all. UNREAL was the last time I was blown away by graphics. That was released in'98. I still have that installed (the original, not UT) and am constantly amazed by what I see. It looks way better than many games released today. The first time you leave the prison ship is a classic moment. Sure, the low polygon enemies, trees, buildings, etc, do betray its age a bit, but this is a small nitpick with the graphical splendor on display. The sky alone, especially in the Harobed village area, with twin suns shining through the clouds, puts most modern games to shame. UNREAL in every sense of the word.

My system at the time - P2 266 + Voodoo2. Not bad by any means, but I'm sure 2gig cpus + GF4 4600 should be able to produce visuals that completely destroys Unreal, or any other game you can think of. I'm still waiting for that game. Nothing has ever had the same impact on me because almost all current games look the same, using the same graphics from the same engines until they have a 'been there, done that' kinda feel.

I'm currently playing NWN and while the game is decent the graphics are mediocre at best - very simple generic environments. You seen the forests in this? From the outside they're like one huge polygon with tree textures painted on... :D

Morrowind is quite nice, though. :)
 
one would think that the technical leaps and bounds that have been made in movie making in the past ~10 years or so would automatically make a giant leap for involving atmosphere in movies... but the two really aren't at all connected..

it's really up to game designers to take their craft and turn it into an artform..
 
NV25 said:
I'm currently playing NWN and while the game is decent the graphics are mediocre at best - very simple generic environments. You seen the forests in this? From the outside they're like one huge polygon with tree textures painted on... :D

Morrowind is quite nice, though. :)

You should try and get a hold of build 927 of Unreal Tournament 2003.
And look at f.e the huge outdoor forest map (the one with the jump pads).

Man, that is some really nice graphics.

Makes Morrowind look like something the cat dragged in.
(And that doesn't mean that i think that the graphics in Morrowind sucks)

And, it runs great on my Duron 700 and GeForce ti 4400 (1024, 2X FSAA and lv 4 Aniso).
As long as i don't add any bots :)
(I'll get a 1.3 GHz Thunderbird tomorrow fortunetly)
 
That ut2k3 level does look nice, runs smooth with 5 bots on a 1073Mhz tbird, SDR ram and 64Mb 8500 too, pity I can't say the same for antalus :-?

Another older game that looks good, at least on a sense of scale is Jedi Knight, specifically the palace level, the lift in the demo level and several parts of the valley levels, it may look fairly dated but considering what it ran on and what we run on today. Even the largest jk2 parts (small by comparison to the first) can reduce my pc to 20fps.
 
I think it's the result of several factors.

As pcchen pointed out, the hardware is just a vehicle for the artists and designers.

In general, games have very short shelf life before they hit the bargain bin. That means that you want to reach as large an audience as possible at release. Thus, the game has to be playable on hardware that is at least a couple of years old. Of course they might give the user the opportunity to raise the level a bit, but you are typically just adding to the baseline which isn't the same as if you had designed for the higher level to start with. (There are counterarguments to this - if it was better looking/scaled higher, the game might have a longer shelf life. But the bleeding edge will probably never be able to sustain game development. After all, games cost roughly the same regardless of how many they sell to.)

More of the same, take 1. If you give game designers more hardware capabilities, they might want to do what they couldn't pull off on the previous project. Example: Instead of modelling trees with 8 polygons, they model them with 800. There. Much better. And that's it - their polygon budget went to model the trees better. In general, the game is stuck as similar to the last, only modeled a bit better. Another designer was frustrated because he could only have a few trees, hell, he wanted a forest! So next time around he uses 80 polygons per tree but makes a whole bunch of them. Er. Hmm. Turns out he could only affort 50 or so. Still, it's better than 5. So the game gets more trees and slightly better as well. Both these examples use 100 times the polygon complexity. But is it 100 times better? Which brings us to...

Visual impression of quality is not a linear function of the resources put in. The detail you add gets smaller and more insignificant for each step. Say you model a car. You use 1000 polygons. It looks so-so. If you use 2000 polygons, that won't make it twice as good. Likewise, if you use 100.000 polygons, using 1.000.000 won't make it much better visually. I'll try to get the point across - you need a only very little to provide a sketch, LOTS more to provide a good model, LOTS more again to provide the impression of detail and LOTS more to create the impression of "come closer and you'll see more". A car is a car even at 100 polys. And textures supplies lots of the impression of detail. So even the factor of 20-40 improvement that we have seen since the time of Quake1 in terms of processing power and and fillrates can't do all that much. (I'll echo pascal here and recommend that you break out GLQuake and use good textures - you'll be astounded. Or depressed, depending on your perspective.)

More of the same, take 2. Game designers use new resources predictably. Realism isn't polygons alone, polygons are a case of strongly diminishing returns. One thing game developers should be credited for is that they are working with lightning. Another area that should be worked on is model movement - after all, we are not rendering static scenes. Not only should more things move - water, trees, grass - but they should move more realistically. We haven't really come a long way since Tomb Raider (another good point to refer back to, and then compare with new games). Oni brought smooth motion animation blending, but the takeup has been negligeable. To be fair it's difficult to model natural movement. That is, you can't get very far just adding more of the same.... Physics - it is interesting to note that as important as consistent physics is for realism, the improved physics engine in Unreal2003 wasn't part of the original design spec, but the result of an outside group coming along and pressing successfully to sell their work.
Related to 3D rendering, sound has actually regressed since the demise of Aureal, and the subsequent disuse of A3D. Nowadays we don't have any use of reflective positional sound in games, Creatives exclusive-for-Audigy API hasn't seen any use. The state of sound in games is deplorable. And sound is strongly tied to our perception of spaces and surroundings, just as smell is tied to our sense of taste.

So, many of the reasons we don't see much improvement in games graphics are intrinsic, some depend on limited resources/knowledge/time to incorporate better technology, some are related to market realities.

Unfortunately, I can't see anything to change this substantially.
Fortunately, that means that we will still move forward at a similar pace for at least 5-10 years.

Entropy
 
If I was a professional game programmer, I would take offence at the some of the cheap comments made by some people in this thread. Lazy? All the professional coders that I know (okay, I know 6) are seriously hard workers and put in many long hours to get a job completed on time.

That last part needs re-emphasising. The cost of developing a top game is considerably higher than it was several years back, and time costs the most. Distributors and publishers are unwilling to foot unending bills just so a bunch of coders can be 100% happy - there comes a time when the program just has to get launched to bring some revenue back; patching (although annoying to the consumer) is less expensive than continuous development. Once the public has got hold of your game, you've now got a much wider (and cheaper) "beta" testing team.
 
Neeyik I don't think anyone called you or every programmer lazy (sorry if I sounded like it) BUT there are lazy programmers just as there are dole bludgers.
 
The problem isn't so much with developers as with our unrealistic expectations. That we get a factor of 10 higher scores in 3DMarks doesn't mean much of anything as far as visual representation in games go.

We've simply bought into the 3D card marketing spiel, and then get frustrated when we realize we didn't get much for our latest factor of three improvement in rendering capabilities. Again. :)

Entropy
 
That is also true. We expect games to be released without bugs and compatible with several billion peices of hardware. Which of course is next to impossible unless you have a dev team of 100+ and want to sit for 3-5 years like Blizzard have :)
I never once ran into a bug on ANY Blizzard or Spiderweb game.
 
NV25 said:
I'm currently playing NWN and while the game is decent the graphics are mediocre at best - very simple generic environments. You seen the forests in this? From the outside they're like one huge polygon with tree textures painted on... :D

I think NWN is better in graphics than many other games. Actually, I think it is better than Warcraft 3. It has very detailed textures (with 64MB texture pack). Although it has no too many polygons, it has dynamic lighting with shadows and creates a nice ambience. There is hardly any decent lighting in Warcraft 3.

I am still disappointed about the slow pace of adoption of pixel lighting. There is still no game using per-pixel lighting as its main lighting system.
 
Oh poo I just replied with a long post and it got lost in internet neverland... buggrit :(

Basically the top selling gfx card from NV last year was a TNT M64 (IIRC).

Might explain a few things why most games still look ugly especially compared to lesser powerful consoles
 
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