Luminescent
Veteran
Was the graphics processing unit hardwired to do specific tasks, configurable by the user, or completely programmable, like a dsp?
Was the SNES's graphics processor programmable?
- Thread starter Luminescent
- Start date
Grall said:SNES did not have sprite rotation/scaling. It did have transparency though (and a powerful Flickering-Engine too,), scaling and rotation needed extra chip support in the form of the SuperFX co-processor.
*G*
Not true, SNES did have a limited version of scaling and rotation build in (just look at the bosses in SMW), but its true that for enhanced mode 7 style effects (Mario Kart) it needed an extra processor in the cartridge
Grall said:SNES did not have sprite rotation/scaling. It did have transparency though (and a powerful Flickering-Engine too,
*G*
Umm..no, the FX dsp chip was for polygon generation as seen in Starfox. SNES had hardware scaling/rotation/4 layering XY background scrolling, it's called Mode7
It also had screen distortion effects support, like mosaic, fades, warps etc.
SNES's special chips WERE:
C4 - used only by Capcom - for enhanced sprite rotation and scaling
S-DD1 - VERY late in life cycle - for mind-bogglingly obscene compression of images; algorithm still has yet to be cracked
SuperFX/2 - used semifrequently, MOSTLY for polygon generation. SuperFX was really just a fast coprocessor though, not a geometry engine, hence its use for Yoshi's Island which did not use 3D... it was used for fullspeed sprite morphing in that game.
DSP1 - basic coprocessor, used in very few early games (SMK, Pilotwings) for better 3D handling within Mode 7.
That should be all of them.
The video chip is hardwired though. For example, even its famous Mode 7 can only be used on one surface at a time, and while it does have a hires mode it has a huge frame rate problem
C4 - used only by Capcom - for enhanced sprite rotation and scaling
S-DD1 - VERY late in life cycle - for mind-bogglingly obscene compression of images; algorithm still has yet to be cracked
SuperFX/2 - used semifrequently, MOSTLY for polygon generation. SuperFX was really just a fast coprocessor though, not a geometry engine, hence its use for Yoshi's Island which did not use 3D... it was used for fullspeed sprite morphing in that game.
DSP1 - basic coprocessor, used in very few early games (SMK, Pilotwings) for better 3D handling within Mode 7.
That should be all of them.
The video chip is hardwired though. For example, even its famous Mode 7 can only be used on one surface at a time, and while it does have a hires mode it has a huge frame rate problem
Squeak:
"Not true, SNES did have a limited version of scaling and rotation build in (just look at the bosses in SMW)"
For BACKGROUNDS, yes, but not sprites. Read my posts properly next time okay?
PC-Engine:
"Umm..no, the FX dsp chip"
I don't think it was a true DSP actually. I've heard it was similar to the main CPU, just clocked faster, though that person could have been wrong of course.
"was for polygon generation as seen in Starfox"
It was programmable, and thus not ONLY for polygon generation. As seen in Yoshi's Island for example...
"SNES had hardware scaling/rotation/4 layering XY background scrolling, it's called Mode7"
Yes, but the OP asked about sprites, not backgrounds... Here's another one who should get stronger reading glasses.
*G*
"Not true, SNES did have a limited version of scaling and rotation build in (just look at the bosses in SMW)"
For BACKGROUNDS, yes, but not sprites. Read my posts properly next time okay?
PC-Engine:
"Umm..no, the FX dsp chip"
I don't think it was a true DSP actually. I've heard it was similar to the main CPU, just clocked faster, though that person could have been wrong of course.
"was for polygon generation as seen in Starfox"
It was programmable, and thus not ONLY for polygon generation. As seen in Yoshi's Island for example...
"SNES had hardware scaling/rotation/4 layering XY background scrolling, it's called Mode7
"Yes, but the OP asked about sprites, not backgrounds... Here's another one who should get stronger reading glasses.
*G*
Luminescent
Veteran
I guess the only programmable chip besides the cpu was the sound processor, right?
PC:
"Like I said in my original post it supports sprite rotation/scaling."
However, it DOESN'T! Not without additional hardware! To my knowledge, only Neo-Geo supports that from the 16-bit console generation.
Lumi:
Yes, only CPU and sound processors are software programmable in standard SNES...
*G*
"Like I said in my original post it supports sprite rotation/scaling."
However, it DOESN'T! Not without additional hardware! To my knowledge, only Neo-Geo supports that from the 16-bit console generation.
Lumi:
Yes, only CPU and sound processors are software programmable in standard SNES...
*G*
Grall said:Squeak:
"Not true, SNES did have a limited version of scaling and rotation build in (just look at the bosses in SMW)"
For BACKGROUNDS, yes, but not sprites. Read my posts properly next time okay?
Again, play the first (I think) boss in SMW, it has a huge platform sprite that is rotated left and right and the Koopa kid is stretched and rotated.
Grall said:Squeak:
"Not true, SNES did have a limited version of scaling and rotation build in (just look at the bosses in SMW)"
For BACKGROUNDS, yes, but not sprites. Read my posts properly next time okay?
PC-Engine:
"Umm..no, the FX dsp chip"
I don't think it was a true DSP actually. I've heard it was similar to the main CPU, just clocked faster, though that person could have been wrong of course.
"was for polygon generation as seen in Starfox"
It was programmable, and thus not ONLY for polygon generation. As seen in Yoshi's Island for example...
"SNES had hardware scaling/rotation/4 layering XY background scrolling, it's called Mode7
Yes, but the OP asked about sprites, not backgrounds... Here's another one who should get stronger reading glasses.
*G*
I just googled to check my knowledge of the facts before posting to make sure that I remembered correctly. Mode 7 does indeed comprise scaling and rotation of backgrounds *and* sprites.
This can be seen quite evidently in games such as Super Mario World where the bosses *and* the backgrounds are rotated and scaled. It can also be seen in Super Contra quite clearly (I owned the game for a very long time. I know this for a fact) in boss fights. And it can also be seen quite clearly in F-Zero and Pilotwings, among many *many* other games that did not use DSPs or the SuperFX chip.
Peppermonkey
Newcomer
Pilotwings used an onboard chip... but F-Zero, to my knowledge, didn't.
Peppermonkey
Newcomer
The ground underneath is technically the background, and not a sprite, so it could rotate that.
Squeak:
"Again, play the first (I think) boss in SMW, it has a huge platform sprite"
That's not a rotated sprite, it's a background layer using mode 7. All effects you see that uses scale and rotation in ANY game not equipped with a coprocessor uses a mode 7 background to accomplish it.
Tagrineth:
"SNES does support internal sprite rotation/scaling"
NO, IT DOES NOT. PERIOD.
God dammit, people... If it had rotation and scaling, wouldn't you expect games to use it at least eventually even if it was cumbersome? If you want to rotate on SNES, you can either draw the sprite in numerous fixed angles (used in many games), or you can fake it with mode 7. Problem with first approach is, it consumes ROM and RAM, problem with second is you can only ever have one such object on-screen, at least on a horizontal line. Using raster tricks, you could have more in a vertical line though, but that's cumbersome to accomplish.
So, no hardware scaling or rotation of sprites on SNES. Okay?
Just go check the hardware capabilities description in the manual of the ZSnes emulator for example if anyone doubts me. Nowhere shall you find these particular features mentioned within.
*G*
"Again, play the first (I think) boss in SMW, it has a huge platform sprite"
That's not a rotated sprite, it's a background layer using mode 7. All effects you see that uses scale and rotation in ANY game not equipped with a coprocessor uses a mode 7 background to accomplish it.
Tagrineth:
"SNES does support internal sprite rotation/scaling"
NO, IT DOES NOT. PERIOD.
God dammit, people... If it had rotation and scaling, wouldn't you expect games to use it at least eventually even if it was cumbersome? If you want to rotate on SNES, you can either draw the sprite in numerous fixed angles (used in many games), or you can fake it with mode 7. Problem with first approach is, it consumes ROM and RAM, problem with second is you can only ever have one such object on-screen, at least on a horizontal line. Using raster tricks, you could have more in a vertical line though, but that's cumbersome to accomplish.
So, no hardware scaling or rotation of sprites on SNES. Okay?
Just go check the hardware capabilities description in the manual of the ZSnes emulator for example if anyone doubts me. Nowhere shall you find these particular features mentioned within.
*G*
Here is the description of mode 7 on http://www.nintendoland.com
Mode 7
The SNES has seven different "states" to work in and the seventh is the most spectacular because it lets big backgrounds be scaled and rotated to create impressive 3D illusions like flying over a landscape in a plane. This technique is used in many great games for example in F-Zero, Super Mario Kart, Pilotwings and Secret of Mana (when you ride with Flamie!). Some of the these games uses the additional DSP chip too.
And here is what it says about SuperFX
This invention from the people at Argonaut is a special chip that is implanted in a SNES cart, like the ones above and is called the Super FX chip. It was specialized to help the SNES to create 3D worlds made by shaded polygons and texture mapping and light source shading. The Super FX chip is a RISC type mathprocessor and a supplemental CPU to the real SNES CPU. With the FX chip in a game the SNES´s speed goes up from 3.58 Mhz to 10.5 Mhz. This is a truth with modifications though. The 'real' speed never exceded the SNES CPU's 3.58Mhz, but with the Super-FX certain difficult graphic calculations could be done faster.
The FX-chip can also make ordinary 2D games better. It has been used in StarFox (StarWing) and Vortex (formerly known as Citadel) by Argonaut; a shoot 'em up where you can transform between being a walker, a boggie, a tank or a jetplane and Stunt Race FX (a.k.a. FX Trax and Wild Trax) a nice polygon racer made by Nintendo.
Cartridges with the Super FX chip has a number of additional pins at both sides of the original pins. But it still fits in the SNES's cartridge slot, but not in many NTSC to PAL converters and other such things.
Mode 7
The SNES has seven different "states" to work in and the seventh is the most spectacular because it lets big backgrounds be scaled and rotated to create impressive 3D illusions like flying over a landscape in a plane. This technique is used in many great games for example in F-Zero, Super Mario Kart, Pilotwings and Secret of Mana (when you ride with Flamie!). Some of the these games uses the additional DSP chip too.
And here is what it says about SuperFX
This invention from the people at Argonaut is a special chip that is implanted in a SNES cart, like the ones above and is called the Super FX chip. It was specialized to help the SNES to create 3D worlds made by shaded polygons and texture mapping and light source shading. The Super FX chip is a RISC type mathprocessor and a supplemental CPU to the real SNES CPU. With the FX chip in a game the SNES´s speed goes up from 3.58 Mhz to 10.5 Mhz. This is a truth with modifications though. The 'real' speed never exceded the SNES CPU's 3.58Mhz, but with the Super-FX certain difficult graphic calculations could be done faster.
The FX-chip can also make ordinary 2D games better. It has been used in StarFox (StarWing) and Vortex (formerly known as Citadel) by Argonaut; a shoot 'em up where you can transform between being a walker, a boggie, a tank or a jetplane and Stunt Race FX (a.k.a. FX Trax and Wild Trax) a nice polygon racer made by Nintendo.
Cartridges with the Super FX chip has a number of additional pins at both sides of the original pins. But it still fits in the SNES's cartridge slot, but not in many NTSC to PAL converters and other such things.
