Vita 2 / PS4 Go?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 13524
  • Start date
wco81 said:
I saw a headline recently that mobile gaming revenues recently passed console gaming revenues.
Click to expand...
I think you misread the article
Mobile recently passed console & PC together
Also of interest in the article was the statements

worlds biggest gaming markets revenue by countries
#1 China
#2 USA
#3 Japan

i.e. there is more money being spent on Gaming each year in China (PC,Mobile,Console) than USA (PC,Mobile,Console)
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37640156
China's annual rich list has indicated that, once again, the country has more dollar billionaires than the US, and the gap is widening.
Click to expand...
 
Shifty Geezer said:
If it's as trivial to do as you make it sound, yes, they should and would. However, realistically there's a significant cost. How many units could you expect to shift? Would you make money on the hardware or just the software? If just the software, and you sell to existing console owners who'll use their existing library for no extra money, you make zero dollars per unit.

For Nintendo, it's their only console and the only place to play Nintendo's key franchises, so they could be confident of a few tens of millions of sales minimum with lots of software sales. A portable XB1 or PS4 could have anything from 5 million to 50 million sales and who-knows-what software sales per unit. It's one hell of a gamble for some hundreds of millions minimum investment to create and launch the product.

Maybe they need to hit up Kickstarter? ;)
Click to expand...

Yeah, and bundle it with Shenmue 3 :p

You're right that there's a significant cost, but it comes with little risk other than manufacturing some units that stay sat on shelves. It's part of why I think it would be worthwhile doing this with the PS4/XB1 now that they're nearing the end of their lives: they aren't betting their upcoming generation on this form factor, but they stand to gain the gamers who would otherwise drift towards the Switch.
 
Tkumpathenurpahl said:
You're right that there's a significant cost, but it comes with little risk other than manufacturing some units that stay sat on shelves.
Click to expand...
And risk losing a billion dollars on the venture, because of that significant cost. ;) I think the chance of failure is high and the apparent rewards probably not, unless you strike it lucky.
 
But you can make that same argument about any slim revision. Do you honestly think it's likely that, if they were to manufacture a couple of million units, portable PS4's and XB1's wouldn't sell out?

As for making money on hardware or software: isn't it the general consensus that the most valuable thing is to keep people constantly engaged with your ecosystem?

If Nintendo are the only business with a satisfactory portable solution, then Sony and Microsoft are potentially letting someone drink their milkshake.

I remain convinced that there will be some sort of portable solution sooner rather than later, but I'm still unsure what form this would take.

The CPU + GPU would be akin to Raven Ridge, and the memory either HBM2/3/Low Cost or GDDR6. The main point that I can't settle on is form factor - should it be:

- A fat, 10" tablet? Straight forward design, but possibly a bit too heavy.

- A laptop? Another straight forward design, and one that I like, because it protects the screen and renders the weight largely irrelevant (within reason.)

- A micro console? No built in power supply, no built in screen, no optical drive, and something like 256GB of internal storage. The ability to power it using a 12V adapter or battery pack, and a focus on local Remote Play.

I think that last one is the best thing either Sony or MS could do anyway: get their weakest devices as small and as low power as possible. In that case, the R&D required to create a micro console wouldn't differ so much from that required to create a portable, so they would at least open themselves up to easily release a portable, or for a third party accessory manufacturer to create a portable shell.
 
Tkumpathenurpahl said:
But you can make that same argument about any slim revision.
Click to expand...
Slim revisions are selling to a proven market where the investment is economically justified. If the existing product is not selling, you don't blow more money making a slim version. There was no slim OXB, nor WiiU. A handheld is a new product with an unknown audience, and not a cost reduction of an existing product with a known audience.

Do you honestly think it's likely that, if they were to manufacture a couple of million units, portable PS4's and XB1's wouldn't sell out?
Click to expand...
Sure, 2 million would probably sell out. What would it cost to design and manufacture those 2 million? How much profit is in it?

As for making money on hardware or software: isn't it the general consensus that the most valuable thing is to keep people constantly engaged with your ecosystem?
Click to expand...
Not at any cost. You don't spend a billion bucks on a portable if it'll keep 1 million users from migrating if that same billion bucks could be spent on exclusives or better quality giveaways with the subscription or a better next-gen system or something else that'll stop 10+ million users from migrating. The decision to spend big on a portable needs to be economical justified versus the alternative investments.

I think that last one is the best thing either Sony or MS could do anyway: get their weakest devices as small and as low power as possible. In that case, the R&D required to create a micro console wouldn't differ so much from that required to create a portable, so they would at least open themselves up to easily release a portable, or for a third party accessory manufacturer to create a portable shell.
Click to expand...
A micro-console isn't a portable, but a super, super slim. A portable has its unique design considerations and costs and manufacturing, requiring factory capacity etc. for a product with a fundamentally different audience - people who buy a (micro) console won't necessarily buy a portable. You'd mitigate some of the costs of a portable by already having a portable-capable SOC and mobo, perhaps, but that's still a ways from adding a screen, controls, assembling, box, marketing, distribution, yada yada, for a portable.

It'd be a very charitable company that decided to release a portable console for just a few million customers as a gesture of goodwill.
 
I don't see the last option by Tkumpathenurpahl as that incredulous. Provided they could get the power consumption down to under 35watts, a simple super slim console which could be attached to a battery would work fine. A separate screen & controller which could either be used via remote play or equivalent or simply a Slim hdmi cable to attach to the base unit and you have your portable. The battery and screen/controller could be sold separately from the super slim, and bundle in a deal if needs be. Sony already put money on VR, I see no reason for them to try this - the screen/controller and battery would probably not cost more than £150.
 
It's not incredulous, but it needs a business case. What is the argument that's going to be presented to the Board or CEO? He/they'll want to see forecasts for costs and numbers and revenue, and a good reason why it's worth bothering with beyond 'it'd be nice'.

If the case is, "let's spend $1 billion releasing a portable," it's a fail. With the micro-console option, there's potentially traction...

"We've already got the PS4 down to a size that'd fit portable, for our new micro-console which we're releasing for $150. The investment of that $1 billion to produce that is going to be recovered with the first 20 million units sold at $10 profit each plus software sales and be tripled over the life of the PS4µ. To produce a portable version, we'd need another $200 million. Forecasts are for 10 million units to sell over 3 years. Software sales will be minimal as players will mostly play their existing library, but we can charge $20 over costs which'll cover costs and generate positive goodwill and press coverage."

Etc.

All the wanting and wishing in the world won't make it happen. If no-one here can come up with a good business case (costs to make and profits from its sales) for a PS4P, chances are Sony can't either, even if the technical hurdles can be overcome.
 
I don't see a PS4 Go as doable, there are too many constrains associated with PS4 games among which the media and storage requirements, either way they make a "gaming laptop like" device.
I would like to see a PS Vita 2 but my belief is that Sony is likely to overshoot the specs (hence the price) for the systems. It could also end up in a tough spot in between Nintendo "do it all" system and its possible evolutions and a (really) new DS.

As we are hearing noises about a cheap (...) surface device I think it would make more sense for MSFT to launch an affordable portable windows 10 device than for Sony to launch a Vita (imo if Sony plays it cards well it has a shot at pushing MSFT toward the exit doors of most living room, they need execution, aggressive move, the right timing, luck as well as the sustained effort of their in house studios).
 
I already mentioned this on the future hardware thread, but this snippet is very relevant to this thread:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/next-playstation-is-three-years-off-sony-says-1527067818

Mr. Kodera said the company is looking at ways to better incorporate mobility into the PlayStation, traditionally a living-room console. Nintendo Co.’s popular Switch machine can be used both in the home and as a portable device.
Click to expand...

Sony wants a piece of Switch's pie.

Sony sells the hand-held PlayStation Vita, but Mr. Kodera said that when it comes to mobility, the company doesn’t want to limit itself to a single dedicated device.
Click to expand...

Sony doesn't want this future mobile device to have its software lineup isolated from the home console.

“We need a broader perspective than that because so many things are now connected via the internet,” he said.
Click to expand...

This seems to hint at a device absent of physical storage distribution media (i.e. no optical discs or cartridges). Where the PSP Go failed 10 years ago the PS4 Go would succeed because they already have 35 million Plus subscribers, meaning they're more immune to retailer boycotts (though ideally they would find a way to pair a physical copy with a digital key).



EDIT: Bloomberg seems to be equally convinced of a new portable Playstation coming up.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...tation-chief-hints-at-portable-gaming-revival
 
It kinda read more like Remote Play 2.0 of sorts.

As he says, there are lots of devices already connected to the internet, and perhaps introducing another mobile device may not be the greatest when people are already carrying things around. The breakdown of Switch usage by mobility/docked/both is interesting.

So for example, let's say one subscribes to PS DoublePlusGood or buys a fancy new Sony android thing-a-ma-jig and stream your existing digital library from their servers (i.e. because intarweb-on-the-go vs home connection) instead of having your home machine turn on.* They'd, of course, need an official method to translate to touch screen controls for maximum reach.

*PS Now variation

edit9001:

Mobile VR too! :V
 
Last edited:
AlBran said:
It kinda read more like Remote Play 2.0 of sorts.
Click to expand...
Shifty Geezer said:
I get:

1 - "No dedicated device for mobility" = "We want to run on every mobile device."
2 - "so many things are now connected via the internet" = "We can stream games."
Click to expand...
https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/playstationnow/

That already exists.
PlayStation Now was never mentioned, nor was the word "streaming" or "service", and he was answering directly to a question about providing hardware competition to the Switch.

But you could interpret that way, yes.
 
ToTTenTranz said:
https://www.playstation.com/en-us/explore/playstationnow/

That already exists.
Click to expand...
Not on portable devices. We also see EA looking into streaming, and we have Switch dabbling with streamed games too. GOW has sold 10 million to an install base of 80 million. Would Sony rather have the opportunity to sell GOW and other titles to a new 20 million unit handheld (assuming it doesn't play the games already paid for) or to 1 billion mobile users?

May need to bundle PSNow or whatever subscription with a DS4 controller or dock/cradle thing to run games on mobile devices with a controller. That's still a significant issue. But a PSNow subscription bundled with controller can be break even, even lossy, if it gets people subscribing, and Sony has a library that'll draw some people in for sure.
 
Tkumpathenurpahl said:
But you can make that same argument about any slim revision. Do you honestly think it's likely that, if they were to manufacture a couple of million units, portable PS4's and XB1's wouldn't sell out?

As for making money on hardware or software: isn't it the general consensus that the most valuable thing is to keep people constantly engaged with your ecosystem?

If Nintendo are the only business with a satisfactory portable solution, then Sony and Microsoft are potentially letting someone drink their milkshake.

I remain convinced that there will be some sort of portable solution sooner rather than later, but I'm still unsure what form this would take.

The CPU + GPU would be akin to Raven Ridge, and the memory either HBM2/3/Low Cost or GDDR6. The main point that I can't settle on is form factor - should it be:

- A fat, 10" tablet? Straight forward design, but possibly a bit too heavy.

- A laptop? Another straight forward design, and one that I like, because it protects the screen and renders the weight largely irrelevant (within reason.)

- A micro console? No built in power supply, no built in screen, no optical drive, and something like 256GB of internal storage. The ability to power it using a 12V adapter or battery pack, and a focus on local Remote Play.

I think that last one is the best thing either Sony or MS could do anyway: get their weakest devices as small and as low power as possible. In that case, the R&D required to create a micro console wouldn't differ so much from that required to create a portable, so they would at least open themselves up to easily release a portable, or for a third party accessory manufacturer to create a portable shell.
Click to expand...

Hello I am new here and I don't think I'm allowed to posts links yet.

I am not an expert in technology but for several years I have been dreaming about how handhelds are going to be more mainstream in the future both consoles and PC.

I just saw these a few hours ago:

Crowdfunded?
E3 2018 / Smach Z from 99.7 The Blitz channel
-5 hours battery with fast charge
-still very controversial.

Independent?
Project Scout V2 - Overwatch, Doom, Borderlands 2 Gameplay (Sep 28, 2017)
-Intel Nuc i5 7260u, UHD 640
-supposedly 3 hours, 85 watt hour.
-20-30 watts consumption.

Portable PC Handheld Project from Specialization Is Overrated channel
-core M3
-around 3 hours

On a different but related note, Nintendo seems to spend about $ 600 million a year with R&D for both hardware, software and releases including 3DS and Switch platforms:

Article: Nintendo spent $527m on research & development last year

What impresses me is that Project Scout V2 done by one man.

With Sony's weight, it seems really easy for them to actually cook a Portable PS4 with 3 hours battery in a few years and at least not having to build its backbone of games and infrastructure.

From what I've read around, it seems AMD is also focusing on APU and that even brought tension within the company.

I think a possible future landscape would be the Switch 2 and the PS4 Portable.

The Switch will have plenty of exclusives and the PS4 Portable will have the superior backwards compatibility thanks to the PS4 library and the common multi-plat will be on both.

It's also going to be one of the best time to market the PS4 library, a direct predecessor, the landslide winner of last gen home console more than 3 is to 1 world wide against the Xbox (?); now a handheld. True console quality has come*.

PS3 gen only won in sales at the end and a major hurt against Sony's pockets last time around.

This could also theoretically extend the PS4 platform's lifespan but nowhere near double because it will probably only get the "B grade" (pardon the term) Sony devs, while ND, SM, SP, Guerrilla Main will be focusing on the PS5.

Who knows, maybe Sony could relegate the 1st party "B grade" to creating more PS4 or PS4-PS5 exclusives like the ones who made the higher budget VITA exclusives and/or include Sony published ones (not 1st party); Uncharted Golden, Killzone: Mercs, Gravity Rush, Soul Sacrifice.

The above games didn't set the handheld world on fire but they're probably in a much better position to thrive because of the 90+m install base.

This doesn't seem to be happening this gen with the Switch and PS3 though (present equivalent of Switch 2, PS4 Portable and PS5).

I doubt they'd get a lot of profit relative to PS5 but if they can arm it for small but stable profit, it could be nice.

I also think there's some diminishing returns in current game design so I'm guessing there might be more PS4/XB1-PS5/XB2 cross gen entries than PS360-PS4/X1 gen.

On a more side, side note, how are they gonna implement the touchpad/touchpad click? soapbar form factor with backpad, Clam style ala Shield?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
BRiT said:
I agree with most of the latest, hibernating to SSD and desire for Vita 2.

I was hoping for a genuine Vita 2 when they released PS4, and again when they did 4Pro. It would be nice to have Vita 2, PSVR 2, and PS5 all hit at the same time.

But I understand if they hold back PSVR 2 until a year after release of PS5, so as not to muddy the message of supporting existing PSVR hardware. Or so I'm assuming that's the approach they will go with.
Click to expand...
Do you seriously expect a Vita 2? I suspect they can catch most of the market that wood care about that with any device streaming and controller support.

I say this as a day one buyer of the Vita who still uses it.
 
They need to figure out what went wrong with the Vita. Is there still some space in the market to squeeze besides nintendo? The vita hardware was superb for it's time. But not enough games were ported or developped for it.

The least bad solution I think is a portable using scaled down zen/navi from ps5 with the same dev tools and an identical OS. Relatively easy to develop simultaneously for both targets.

2 cores zen
Navi 0.75 TF
4GB lpddr5
1080p screen
256GB Nvme
Macronix rom as usual
$299?

... Or of course, they could instead wait a few years for a portable ps4. But I think the market would be healthier with a clean break like nintendo did.
 
MrFox said:
They need to figure out what went wrong with the Vita.
Click to expand...

The Vita was killed on arrival by Sony themselves, by:

1 - not ever having any substantial 1st party development;
2 - not getting any marketing push. In 2012, after the Vita releasing in December 2011, the console was hardly even mentioned at Sony's E3 presentation;
3 - using 1st-party, non-standard and super expensive memory expansion. This limited e-store sales because people weren't willing to spend another $100 beyond the console's price just to put storage enough for 4 games.

To be fair, the Vita probably wasn't killed on arrival, it was killed before arriving.
The Vita's development probably started late 2007 / early 2008, before android and iOS had really lifted off, the first ipad hadn't released and Nokia was being stupid by taking iGPUs away from their newly launched Symbian flagships.

Then in 2009 Sony saw the rampant adoption of smartphones with 3D GPUs (which they were making themselves). Then they probably saw the roadmaps for TSMC, Qualcomm, Samsung, Texas, etc. and figured their dedicated mobile console, a couple of years after release, might not be able to compete with devices that everyone was going to carry all the time with better screens and more powerful hardware.

So they had the option to either:
a) split their 1st-party efforts between late PS3 titles and Vita titles, in a time where the Vita's total addressable market was already looking elsewhere;
b) release the Vita with little support just to appease first adopters and fans of JRPGs and visual novels, and focus the marketing and 1st-party development on late PS3 games that would later be ported to the PS4.


They went with b).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top