Toshiba shows next generation blue laser DVD media.

[Vince]

Panajev, why are you fighting him? Looks whose supporting Blue-Ray: Hitachi Ltd., LG Electronics Inc., Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd., Pioneer Corporation, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd., Sharp Corporation, Sony Corporation, and Thomson Multimedia.

Yes, I'm sure they're going to be overpowered by Microsoft and Toshiba. When has the PC ever been the catalyst for devices like this? CD? DVD?

PCEngine needs to think more, talk of of sheer bias less.

 

[Tahir2]

Philips, Matsushita and Sony = almost the whole industry.. hehe.

Weird I thought Sony would back Toshiba as they are very close.

 

[PC-Engine]

Panajev, why are you fighting him? Looks whose supporting Blue-Ray: Hitachi Ltd., LG Electronics Inc., Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd., Pioneer Corporation, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd., Sharp Corporation, Sony Corporation, and Thomson Multimedia.

Yes, I'm sure they're going to be overpowered by Microsoft and Toshiba. When has the PC ever been the catalyst for devices like this? CD? DVD?

PCEngine needs to think more, talk of of sheer bias less.

It's likely AOD will play HD-DVD out of the box and be cheaper as it's based on existing manufacturing infrastructure. Compatibility will be a concern. AOD and HD-DVD are DVD Forum formats

 

[Vince]

It's likely AOD will play HD-DVD out of the box and be cheaper as it's based on existing manufacturing infrastructure.

Insignificant if the industry doesn't support it. Media houses can print whatever they want, they just won't make any money if people can't play it.

Compatibility will be a concern. AOD and HD-DVD are DVD Forum formats

No it isn't. These reasons are so shallow. DVD Forum? Who gives a shit when 9/10ths the industry is backing another format? What are you going to play your old-age DVD-on-steriods on? Let me guess, Microsoft is going to subsidize this too...

These are cookie-cutter reason's I'd expect to hear Chap use.

 

[PC-Engine]

It's likely AOD will play HD-DVD out of the box and be cheaper as it's based on existing manufacturing infrastructure.

Insignificant if the industry doesn't support it. Media houses can print whatever they want, they just won't make any money if people can't play it.

Compatibility will be a concern. AOD and HD-DVD are DVD Forum formats

No it isn't. These reasons are so shallow. DVD Forum? Who gives a shit when 9/10ths the industry is backing another format? What are you going to play your old-age DVD-on-steriods on? Let me guess, Microsoft is going to subsidize this too...

These are cookie-cutter reason's I'd expect to hear Chap use.

Media houses aren't going to move to more expensive pressing equipment especially if HD-DVD compatibility is not guaranteed and the next generation DVD format will be decided by the DVD forum which is led by Toshiba. BTW there are a lot of other drive manufactuers that are still sitting on the fence, Yamaha, Mitsui, Richoh, LiteOn, etc

 

[marconelly!]

I'm actually pretty sure Microsoft is one of the companies backing up Blu-Ray.

 

[Panajev2001a]

HD-DVD is basically a normal DVD using MPEG4...

PlayStation 3 and most Blu-Ray players WILL BE backward-compatible to DVDs and CDs ( for sure PlayStation 3 will need to be ) from that the thing is decoding MPEG4...

That should not be a problem, even doing it in software...

 

[jvd]

The competitive Blue-ray Disk format uses a lens with a numerical aperture of 0.85 and a disk with a 0.1-mm cover layer, which makes the format [i}incompatible with the DVD format. [/i]

[/i]

 

[Paul]

I really like Blu-ray and think it's an interesting tech. Do I think it will take over DVD? No, I see something better coming along after Blu-Ray and that kinda becoming the medium of the next generation.

Blu-ray in PS3 sounds really cool, it will obviously be a stripped down version without all the bells and whistles to keep costs down.

What I want to see is if PS3's blu-ray disks will be encased in that plasic thing or will they actually be a regular disk. My guess is a regular disk because of the backwards compatability with DVD's and CD's.

 

[marconelly!]

The competitive Blue-ray Disk format uses a lens with a numerical aperture of 0.85 and a disk with a 0.1-mm cover layer, which makes the format [i}incompatible with the DVD format. [/i]

DVD format is also 'incompatible' with CD, but every single DVD player can play CDs because they have either dual lasers, or adjustable single laser. Not only it's confirmed that Blu-Ray devices will play DVDs but it's just a common sense that it will be like that.

 

[PC-Engine]

If you look at the market right now, nobody buys stand alone DVD/CD burners. Everyone is buying burners for computers. The new AOD burners drives for computers will be pretty cheap because it'll be using existing media pressing equipment and existing lense assembly plants etc. People WILL buy them and once that happens Blu-ray will be in deep sh*t. No one is gonna go to Circuit City to buy a stand alone Blu-ray recorder that cost $1000.

HD-DVD is basically a normal DVD using MPEG4...

PlayStation 3 and most Blu-Ray players WILL BE backward-compatible to DVDs and CDs ( for sure PlayStation 3 will need to be ) from that the thing is decoding MPEG4...

That should not be a problem, even doing it in software...

According to http://www.blu-raydisc.info, Blu-ray players only support MPEG2. The problem with Blu-ray and backwards compatibility is that there is no unified spec requirement for backwards compatibility or MPEG4 capability. It's all up to the individual manufacterures. That's the problem.

 

[Vince]

If you look at the market right now, nobody buys stand alone DVD/CD burners. Everyoneis buying burners for computers. The new AOD burners drives for computers will be pretty cheap. People WILL buy them and once that happens Blu-ray will be in deep sh*t. No one is gonna go to Circuit City to buy a stand alone Blu-ray recorder.

Yes, because everyone wants to keep that damn VHS thing sitting under their 50' Plasma TV...

Besides, I'd imagine that every normal, computer illiterate person will want to connect their TV to their PC using the OS (draw your own conclusions) and it's crappy built in programs to record TV on AOD discs in their PCs.... heh. You'd think you would have picked up the trend: from Electronics -> PC. The question isn't what is the massive Blu-Ray coalition going to do, but rather whose going to produce your VHS replacement? Aswell as the obvious, 'doesn't it suck to compete against the Blu-Ray group?'

 

[Geeforcer]

I heard Microsoft mentioned several times, how exatly do they play into all of this?

 

[Vince]

I heard Microsoft mentioned several times, how exatly do they play into all of this?

According to some (you can guess who) they will support only the standard that they choose in their OS, whereby screwing others. These people say they will pick AOD over Blu-Ray and thus "kill" the standard. Which seems... illegal among other things, but you get it.

So, how are you?

 

[PC-Engine]

If you look at the market right now, nobody buys stand alone DVD/CD burners. Everyoneis buying burners for computers. The new AOD burners drives for computers will be pretty cheap. People WILL buy them and once that happens Blu-ray will be in deep sh*t. No one is gonna go to Circuit City to buy a stand alone Blu-ray recorder.

Yes, because everyone wants to keep that damn VHS thing sitting under their 50' Plasma TV...

Besides, I'd imagine that every normal, computer illiterate person will want to connect their TV to their PC using the OS (draw your own conclusions) and it's crappy built in programs to record TV on AOD discs in their PCs.... heh. You'd think you would have picked up the trend: from Electronics -> PC. The question isn't what is the massive Blu-Ray coalition going to do, but rather whose going to produce your VHS replacement? Aswell as the obvious, 'doesn't it suck to compete against the Blu-Ray group?'

The point I was trying to make was that once the burners for computers start selling to the mass market at cheap prices, the technology will migrate to the living room. Once that happens Blu-ray WILL be in trouble. It won't make any sense to continue to sell $1000 Blu-ray recorders when you can get a stand alone AOD unit for probably half the cost and I wouldn't be surprise to see some members of the Blu-ray group selling AOD recorders alongside Blu-ray units through an OEM model using drives from Toshiba, NEC, Mitsui, Ricoh, Plextor, LiteOn, etc. AOD will initially take off in the PC sector then eventually move into the living room like DVD burners are doing today. I doubt Blu-ray will take off in the PC sector just like MO drives...too expensive too inconvenient with little benefit over AOD.

 

[Vince]

The point I was trying to make was that once the burners for computers start selling to the mass market at cheap prices, the technology will migrate to the living room. Once that happens Blu-ray WILL be in trouble. It won't make any sense to continue to sell $1000 Blu-ray recorders when you can get a stand alone AOD unit for probably half the cost. AOD will take off in the PC sector first then eventually the living room. I doubt Blu-ray will take off in the PC sector just like MO drives...too expensive too inconvenient.

I gotcha PC-E, but the problem is that things like this don't take-off based on PC acceptance. There is NO need for this level storage on the PC at this time when CD-R's are selling for pennies and people like Vince can use them as frisbies.

But, there is a need for HD capable drives to become a longterm replacement for devices like a VCR. A solution that can scale to 50+GB and record and play HD video in RT.

Thus, it's my belief that the acceptabce will come from the home electronics segment and then spread to the PC. Hell, PC software is still being sold on CD's...

 

[nondescript]

Just like to make a few comments about MO drives.

MO drives are great, and widely used in Japan, and used to varying degrees throughout East Asia. I have an MO drive. ( I used to live in Taiwan)

1. It's fast. Don't know the specs (they vary with each generation), but its essentially a USB 2.0 harddrive, with a slower seek time.

2. Durable. The disks last forever.

3. High capacity. 3.5 inch disks, but they hold anywhere from 640 MB to 2.3 Gb.

4. Low cost. a MO disk is comparable to a CD-RW in price (at most 2 times more expensive), but infinitely more convinent. The drives are a little pricey, since CD burners cost next to nothing now.

--------
I have no idea why the US doesn't use MO drives, but the US tends to skip generations of technology.

Examples:

VHS/(Beta) -> VCD -> DVD (US largely skipped VCD)

CD -> MD -> Mp3 player (largely skipped MD)

And, of course, cell phones and mobile devices. The boundaries between generations are less clearly defined, but you get the idea.
---------

So what does this mean for Blu-Ray/AOD? I think the discussion is meaningless at this point. Just like VCD and MDs, which offered no compelling advantage over VHS or CD, unless Blu-ray/AOD have something significant to offer, the Average Joe at Best Buy won't care.

Why would you need 30 GB? (Sounds like "why would you need > 640k RAM?") There's definitely an application, but I don't know what application that is. Until there is an application, no one will care.

Which brings up the PS3. If the PS3 uses Blu-ray, that's one hell of a way to force Blu-ray units out the door. Its also the application. Unless Toshiba can match that volume, and the application, Blu-ray will be the de facto standard.

 

[PC-Engine]

I gotcha PC-E, but the problem is that things like this don't take-off based on PC acceptance. There is NO need for this level storage on the PC at this time when CD-R's are selling for pennies and people like Vince can use them as frisbies.

Yes, but if the drives are cheap then PC manufacturers will include them just as checklist item. Same as DVD burners today. Most PCs today come with some sort of burner, a CDRW at least and already moving toward DVDRW/CDRW combo drives from consumer demand. Do consumers really need DVDRW capability now? No, but they still want it and if it's cheap then why not? Most likely AOD will be able to burn all the other formats like DVD-RW, DVDR, CD-RW, CDR, etc. considering they're all created to be backwards compatible by the DVD Forum.

But, there is a need for HD capable drives to become a longterm replacement for devices like a VCR. A solution that can scale to 50+GB and record and play HD video in RT.

Yes that's true, but the AOD format hasn't been finalized so there's still room for improvement. Blank media costs will be a factor too and I see AOD having an advantage there too. For example AOD will be capable of 40 GB single sided dual layer. BD OTOH is capable of 50 GB not that big of an advantage and when you factor in cost, the slight capacity advantage won't be a major deciding factor from the cosumer's point of view IMO.

Thus, it's my belief that the acceptabce will come from the home electronics segment and then spread to the PC. Hell, PC software is still being sold on CD's...

I guess we'll just have to wait and see then

 

[PC-Engine]

Just like to make a few comments about MO drives.

MO drives are great, and widely used in Japan, and used to varying degrees throughout East Asia. I have an MO drive.

1. It's fast. Don't know the specs (they vary with each generation), but its essentially a USB 2.0 harddrive, with a slower seek time.

2. Durable. The disks last forever.

3. High capacity. 3.5 inch disks, but they hold anywhere from 640 MB to 2.3 Gb.

4. Low cost. a MO disk is comparable to a CD-RW in price (at most 2 times more expensive), but infinitely more convinent. The drives are a little pricey, since CD burners cost next to nothing now.

--------
I have no idea why the US doesn't use MO drives, but the US tends to skip generations of technology.

Examples:

VHS/(Beta) -> VCD -> DVD (US largely skipped VCD)

CD -> MD -> Mp3 player (largely skipped MD)

And, of course, cell phones and mobile devices. The boundaries between generations are less clearly defined, but you get the idea.
---------

So what does this mean for Blu-Ray/AOD? I think the discussion is meaningless at this point. Just like VCD and MDs, which offered no compelling advantage over VHS or CD, unless Blu-ray/AOD have something significant to offer, the Average Joe at Best Buy won't care.

Why would you need 30 GB? (Sounds like "why would you need > 640k RAM?") There's definitely an application, but I don't know what application that is. Until there is an application, no one will care.

Which brings up the PS3. If the PS3 uses Blu-ray, that's one hell of a way to force Blu-ray units out the door. Its also the application. Unless Toshiba can match that volume, and the application, Blu-ray will be the de facto standard.

I bought an MO drive back then too, but when CDRW became hella cheap, I never turned back.

Consumers will have AOD burners on their PCs whether they have a use for it or not. Most PCs today come with some sort of burner. If Xbox2, GCN2, and the PC sector adopts AOD then Blu-ray will have an uphill battle.

 

[nondescript]

I bought an MO drive back then too, but when CDRW became hella cheap, I never turned back.

Consumers will have AOD burners on their PCs whether they have a use for it or not. Most PCs today come with some sort of burner. If Xbox2, GCN2, and the PC sector adopts AOD then Blu-ray will have an uphill battle.

MO drives are still alive and well, actually - just not in the US. Getting faster, bigger, but not much cheaper, unfortunately.

IMHO, most PCs do not have a CD burner. Go to Dell or Gateway if you want proof. Why on earth would PC makers, who operate on razor-thin margins, force AOD burners when the user doesn't want them? The trend is clearly to lower cost, not more bells and whistles. When did we agree that the PC industry was going to wholeheartly support AOD?

Secondly, CD burners became mainstream only after the adoption of CDs as a format, which was largely driven by the music industry, and it was a very slow process. Remember 4x CD-Rs? Remember green/blue/gold disks? It was a long way to get to here. DVD's, same story - but driven by the movie industry. In all cases, the application came first. Even VHS, many people think that VHS won out because you could tape a whole football game!

The PC industry, or any industry, can't force a standard without a reason. The reason has to come first.

Who will win? How the hell do I know? But whomever does will be the one that wins the support of the consumer, by providing a compelling application.