Toshiba shows next generation blue laser DVD media.

[Fafalada]

Yes and that was my point in the PC space which favors AOD.

Fair enough, but PC space also favoured DVD+ which nonetheless always trailed DVD- both in price and popularity. By now the latter pretty much won - hard to beat empty discs for 50c

OT: but are today's recordable DVD drives limited to the 4.7 gig discs?

Unfortunately, yes. Dual layer discs are made by recording each layer separately and then 'sticking' layers together in a factory process - hardly something you could do with a disc drive
You can buy double sided DVD-Ram's which have 9.4GB but that of course requires disc turning - afaik there aren't any drives that would have twin lasers or something to avoid that.

 

[zurich]

Yes and that was my point in the PC space which favors AOD.

Fair enough, but PC space also favoured DVD+ which nonetheless always trailed DVD- both in price and popularity. By now the latter pretty much won - hard to beat empty discs for 50c

OT: but are today's recordable DVD drives limited to the 4.7 gig discs?

Unfortunately, yes. Dual layer discs are made by recording each layer separately and then 'sticking' layers together in a factory process - hardly something you could do with a disc drive
You can buy double sided DVD-Ram's which have 9.4GB but that of course requires disc turning - afaik there aren't any drives that would have twin lasers or something to avoid that.

Blah, so much for backing up my TV/Anime series each on one disk.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Sensitivities to thickness variations and disk tilt are worse, however, due to the wavelength difference

That was for AOD...

Adopting a 0.1mm optical transmittance protection layer,
Blu- ray Disc with a 0.85 NA field lens maintains the same
tolerance for disc tilt as DVD.

And the end result of that is still:

However, because of the high NA, the protective layer had to be made thin to limit sensitivity to thickness variations and disk tilt. Therefore, Blu-ray disks are sensitive to dust and scratches, and thus, in their naked (without protective cartridge) form, are not as consumer-friendly as the other two naked optical disk technologies

We will see...

Sensibility to scratches of both AOD and Blu-Ray is quite high "compared" to DVDs ( the difference between AOD and Blu-Ray [no caddy] is not relevant compared to DVD] due to the much increased data density... face it, returns to caddies might not be so bad...

They are going to make 50 GB Re-Writeable Blu-Ray discs ( Matsushita already showed them ) even without a caddy...

So they have faith it can work...

Still, I prefer having a plastic caddy around it ( the cost will not increase that much because of some cheap plastic... ): in this case Blu-Ray + caddy >= DVD ( depending how good the caddy is... ) in regards to sensibility to scratches...

 

[Geeforcer]

Caddies suck ass, period. Mobile Player/Laptop users are not going to like then, and neither will Netflicks/simular service subscribers.

 

[Panajev2001a]

We will see... as I said Blu-Ray does not mandate caddies... I am just happy it will have a caddy because my Blu-Ray collection will last much longer than PC-Engine's AOD collection


*rimshot*

 

[archie4oz]

Caddies suck ass, period.

Like hell they do! I'll take the durability of caddied media over bare media anyday.

Mobile Player/Laptop users are not going to like then, and neither will Netflicks/simular service subscribers.

Well it may be a while before mobile devices get Blu-Ray or AOD. As for NetFlix type services, since they'd likely be distributing read-only media they'll probably forgo the caddie (It's not mandatory).

Speaking of which. I'm starting to question the whole point of the caddie arguement anyway. How long have you guys been using computers for crying out loud? CD-ROM drives were restricted to caddies for years before bare media trays (and eventually slot-loaders) came to be the norm (and the same applied to CD-R drives as well).

 

[Nick Laslett]

I posted the link to the widescreen review site, because from what I have observed, the opinion formers in the high end home cinema community are beginning to support Blu-Ray as the superior format. This doesn't mean much, but it is kind of interesting. And if you hang around AV forums like I do you will see a lot of this kind of stuff. I was pointed in the direction of the Widescreen review when I enquired why Blu-Ray was seen as being superior. If you look at the table it is plain to see which is the better format in regard to the end user. Whether this is the easiest to develop and manufacture content for is a different matter. The DVD Forum will be an albatross around AODs neck in my opinion. Too many of it's members have it's fingers in the Blu-Ray pie. Things like PAL Progressive Scan and DVI connections have had their implementation delayed by the long drawn out process to get anything through the forum. By the time these things are ratified the Chinese and Korean electronics companies have already got the kit in production and can undercut the Japanese majors. This really undermines their profit margins. See Sony's recent financial reports. The support of the DVD Forum is a bad thing. AOD won't hit the US market till Easter '05. A long time after Blu-Ray.

 

[PC-Engine]

I posted the link to the widescreen review site, because from what I have observed, the opinion formers in the high end home cinema community are beginning to support Blu-Ray as the superior format. This doesn't mean much, but it is kind of interesting. And if you hang around AV forums like I do you will see a lot of this kind of stuff. I was pointed in the direction of the Widescreen review when I enquired why Blu-Ray was seen as being superior. If you look at the table it is plain to see which is the better format in regard to the end user. Whether this is the easiest to develop and manufacture content for is a different matter. The DVD Forum will be an albatross around AODs neck in my opinion. Too many of it's members have it's fingers in the Blu-Ray pie. Things like PAL Progressive Scan and DVI connections have had their implementation delayed by the long drawn out process to get anything through the forum. By the time these things are ratified the Chinese and Korean electronics companies have already got the kit in production and can undercut the Japanese majors. This really undermines their profit margins. See Sony's recent financial reports. The support of the DVD Forum is a bad thing. AOD won't hit the US market till Easter '05. A long time after Blu-Ray.

Blu-ray could be considered the "true" HD format: it has high capacity and high data rates (up to 36 Mbps), so you can easily get the same HD quality as D-VHS using MPEG-2. The Blu-ray system, however, requires the most changes of the three, including a blue laser, detector, and advanced objective lens. Blu-ray also requires new disk and cartridge manufacturing technology, which may be difficult to implement in a short time-frame.

Throughout the whole article, that's the only thing they say about Blu-ray. Also AOD spec still hasn't been finalized so we don't know how much MPEG2 bandwidth it'll be capable of. For all we know AOD could end up using MPEG2 AND MPEG4. The conclusion from the article actually favors D-VHS

Speaking of which. I'm starting to question the whole point of the caddie arguement anyway. How long have you guys been using computers for crying out loud? CD-ROM drives were restricted to caddies for years before bare media trays (and eventually slot-loaders) came to be the norm (and the same applied to CD-R drives as well).

I believe CDROM drives stopped using caddies at about the same time when NEC pioneered the whole Multispin industry trend starting with 2X then 3X, 4X, 6X, 8X, etc. Caddies died a quick death.

 

[Vince]

Millions of people have DVD movies right NOW and millions of them watch them on PCs. Wouldn't it be better for people with PCs to have 1 AOD drive and 1 AOD disc with 8 DVD movies on them than 8 separate DVDROM drives??? I think so. Wouldn't it be more convenient to condense one's existing DVD collection? I think so. Why would you want 80 DVDs on your shelf when you can have 10 AODs???

Wow, can you get anymore hypothetical and/or utterly ridiculous? Your postulating:

(a) Done @ Home - People can/will take their already bought DVD's and burn them [multiple DVD's] on their PC's to [less] AOD disks for "convinence." I can only assume the bought DVD's will be used as dog toys and toplace cold drinks on as to not make rings on their furnature.

(b) Done @ Infastructure - Companies will sell multiple movies on one AOD disk. Which would be a catastrophe as they need to mix and match movies that people would want. Aswell as the additional costs required to put that much copyrighted material [What a movie is] ona single disk. People don't want this.

Thus, your situation is damn retarded.

It's not anymore absurd than $1000 BD recorders becoming $200 in 3 years. How much do YOU think a AOD drive will cost in the PC space?

First off, Who cares how much a AOD player will cost in a PC? I sure as hell don't because the PC adoption rate is insignificant! If you really think that adoption will begin in the PC arena, answer my damn questions concerning this allready and stop avoiding them:

(a) The first one is concerning the nedd for AOD and the driving force in it's adoption on the PC front:

Vince, Pg. 2 wrote:
AOD is going to die. There is no immediate need for this type of mass storage media on the PC - it just doesn't exist. Especially when CD-Rs are selling for around Two cents apiece. Why buy a new standard [AOD] for, lets say ~$200 when you can buy 7,000,000MB of storage space for the same price if my mind didn't fuck me.


So, whats going to drive ANY PC based AOD adoption when I can buy 7,000,000MB of space in CD-R's for the same price?

(b) Name one mainstream standard related to data storage that was designed for, launched for, and was sucessfull for the PC and then spread throught the industry. Unless you really think AOD is going to be the first...

I'm still at a loss for when the PC has EVER been the catalyst for the time of media storage adoption? Especially when the Blu-Ray is targeted at HDTV!!

(c) Also, how will AOD, due out in 2005 (?!?) compete with Blu-Ray and it's prior penetration for 2 years into the Consumer Electronic Market thats historically dominated the standard adoption of these standards? Who will produce the AOD concept in the Consumer Electronics Segment?

Also, as was previously stated here, Blu-Ray will decrease rapidly in costs. This was stated tens of times in this thread. And this coinsides with any knowledge of PriceTheory/Microeconomic theory...

And if you still can't grasp it (draw you own conclusions why) then you have more pressing issues than debating this.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I can only assume the bought DVD's will be used as dog toys and toplace cold drinks on as to not make rings on their furnature.

Finally... the reason some content providers like WB want caddy-less AODs...

First the users are going to put their DVD movies onto AODs and then they are not going to need the DVDs they just converted and they will use them as toys and cup holders for tables...

This is when the plot shows its evil nature ...

You see the caddy-less AODs are going to be ruined much quicker than the users' DVD collection hence people will need to buy the original DVDs ( or expensive AOD compilations with 5 movies in one disc... and you only need to replace 1 of those movies, but you get to pay for all five ) again...

Mad money I tell you

 

[Vince]

Work of The Patriots I tell ya...

 

[Panajev2001a]

Panajev nods

 

[PC-Engine]

(a) Done @ Home - People can/will take their already bought DVD's and burn them [multiple DVD's] on their PC's to [less] AOD disks for "convinence." I can only assume the bought DVD's will be used as dog toys and toplace cold drinks on as to not make rings on their furnature.

If a person can transfer ALL of their audio CDs onto 1 or 2 AODs for play in their PC why wouldn't they? It's not only restricted to DVDs. After they are transferred orginals are stored away. If the AOD gets damaged, take out those orginals and burn another. Heck when I buy a brand new music CD, I immediately make a backup copy and use that so I can keep the orginal in prestine condition just in case I need to go back and make another backup.

(b) Done @ Infastructure - Companies will sell multiple movies on one AOD disk. Which would be a catastrophe as they need to mix and match movies that people would want. Aswell as the additional costs required to put that much copyrighted material [What a movie is] ona single disk. People don't want this.

Who the hell said that? I only said BOXED SETS!

First off, Who cares how much a AOD player will cost in a PC? I sure as hell don't because the PC adoption rate is insignificant!

The same people who care about the price of a DVDRW.

If you really think that adoption will begin in the PC arena, answer my damn questions concerning this allready and stop avoiding them:

(b) Name one mainstream standard related to data storage that was designed for, launched for, and was sucessfull for the PC and then spread throught the industry. Unless you really think AOD is going to be the first...

The hard disk drive.

(c) Also, how will AOD, due out in 2005 (?!?) compete with Blu-Ray and it's prior penetration for 2 years into the Consumer Electronic Market thats historically dominated the standard adoption of these standards? Who will produce the AOD concept in the Consumer Electronics Segment?

You mean the one $3500 Blu-ray recorder? I wouldn't call that market penetration.

OEM model. It's been used for decades. Who do you think makes the hardrives for DVRs, setop boxes, etc.? Guess who makes SONY's 42" and bigger plasma display panels?

 

[archie4oz]

You mean the one $3500 Blu-ray recorder? I wouldn't call that market penetration.

Umm... That's a hell of a lot better than nothing in the market for 1-2 years...

OEM model. It's been used for decades.

Umm... Somebody has to make the drive mechanisms that OEMs license... Considering the bulk of capable optical block manufactures are involved with Blu-Ray (Toshiba and NEC being the obviously significant exceptions).

Besides what does "OEM" model solve in this case?

 

[PC-Engine]

You mean the one $3500 Blu-ray recorder? I wouldn't call that market penetration.

Umm... That's a hell of a lot better than nothing in the market for 1-2 years...

OEM model. It's been used for decades.

Umm... Somebody has to make the drive mechanisms that OEMs license... Considering the bulk of capable optical block manufactures are involved with Blu-Ray (Toshiba and NEC being the obviously significant exceptions).

Besides what does "OEM" model solve in this case?

It's better sure. A lot better? I don't think so. AOD drives may be available before the end of the year and when they do, won't cost much more than DVDRW drives.

Mitsui, Mitsumi, Teac, Ricoh, Plextor, Yamaha, LiteOn to name a few. That's for the PC space. In the living room space any number of manufacturers can use OEM AOD drives made by the above drive manufacturers. Yamaha, Kenwood, Denon/Marantz, Onkyo, Mitsubishi, Zenith, and of course Toshiba.