Torture or not?

If Uday and Qusay had been caught alive, should they have been tortured for the rest of their lives?


  • Total voters
    171

horvendile

Regular
BACKGROUND / EXPLANATION: In the "Two down, one to go"-thread (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6996) there was a discussion about the use of torture. It surprised me that so few entered the discussion, so I decided to start this poll in order to see what people generally thought about the matter. (I know it won't be representative for anything else than those who can be arsed to vote in polls, but it's the best I can achieve.)
Note: It's not about whether they deserved being tortured, but whether they should have been tortured.

Edit: Clarification: This is also not about whether torture might in some theoretical case be justified, but rather whether it would have been justified to, in this very case, use torture. Not for extracting information, but as a punishment.
(I hope this edit won't
a)reset the poll or
b)make some who already voted wish they had voted differently )
 
Gotta be very careful which rules we break. It will make it that much more likely for the enemy to break them themselves with our kids in their prison camps in the future.

Geneva convention doesnt civilise wars. It only tries to placate some of its brutality.
 
This is one of those ethical questions like "what if you could press a button and a random person in China dies, but everyone is cured of cancer"

Allowing the government to use torture means that one day, you might find yourself on the receiving end.


However, imagine this scenario. You just raided an apartment as a terrorist was talking on the telephone about a mission to set off a nuke in New York City. His apartment is full of bomb making plans, you find the diagrams, you find some left over weapons grade uranium, and he even tells you it is too late, and Allah will have his vengence.

It is likely that 1 million people will die. You have the only person in the world in your captivity who knows the location of the nuke and you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he has information that will help you find it before it goes off.

Do you

a) not use interrogation techniques (remember, even sleep deprivation and loud music are classified as human rights groups as TORTURE!) because of a dangerous precedent, with the very very high probability that 1 million people will die and hundreds of billions of dollars of economic damage

or

b) torture the f*cker and hope for the best

The question should really be "is there any circumstance in which torture is justified?" Anti-capital punishment people answer no to the question "is there any circumstance in which capital punishment is justified". This is a similar question.

In the real world, in such an emergency, the constitution goes out the window, and people will do anything to stop such a catastrophe.
 
I know that it's possible to construct a situation where torture might seem (or be) the best choice - just like you did. But that is not what I wanted to know! The discussion was about whether U&Q should have been tortured, not with the aim of extracting information, but for pain itself.

Maybe I should have added that to the question or explanation. Well, it's too late now!
(Edit: And then I did it anyway :oops: )
 
Is it possible to train oneself to withstand torture? If it is clear that torture is a method that the government will use to e.g. extract information, then it would make sense for terrorist organizations to train prospective terrorists to withstand torture, if at all possible.
 
Well I definately object to torture as a means of punishment. The purpose of torture is to extract critically (life saving) important information. For U&Q, the only information they could have would be the location of Saddam, WMD, and any rebels or weapons caches. Probably best to use more "humane" methods to torture them: sleep deprivation, harsh psychological treatment, etc.
 
Not sure about the movie scenario there demo. Its obviously a very rare occurence. And people when tortured say anything. If you can use torture to justify catching a terrorist what about a suspected murderer? Its a slippery slope...

The price paid of losing our moral standing is potentially much worse than the gain short of such outlandish scenarios... I very doubt we'll stop this kind of thing with intelligence thru torture. If we stop it itll be thru intelligence (with a healthy intelligence program involving as many agencies as possible) but widespread torture of huge numbers of suspects (very likely vs the scenario of catching the one right guy) may create a huge wild goose chase and actually be a nuisance in the overall effort to stop a nuking...

People are already documented as admitting to crimes they never committed when overly grilled about it using aggressive pscyhological techniques. One guy here just got released thiss week after 30 years for a murder he didnt commit. The cops knew about it back in 1970 but kept the info secret and let the admission about it stand as its own and only proof. The info was recently released and an investigation is udnerway with the guy freed for the time being.

But its already damnedly obvious hes innocent.
 
I know that it's possible to construct a situation where torture might seem (or be) the best choice - just like you did. But that is not what I wanted to know! The discussion was about whether U&Q should have been tortured, not with the aim of extracting information, but for pain itself.

I voted no, but now that I think about it sure why not.
 
They should have been put to trial! I don;t think anyone would have tortured Hitler had he been caught alive.
 
You kill hundreds of thousands(to millions) of people, you have rape squads(and do a fair bit of raping yourself), you pillage your countries wealth and use it to keep yourself in power, and your enemies in prison. You yourself use torture both for pleasure and to gain info on those who want to bring you down. And do some of the most awfull things imaginable to your people because you can.

Given that, I say that these types of people should be tortured. Maybe you can come say you get tortured 1 day for every life you took, a week for every rape you did, and however much you tortured others you should do to yourself.

It seems to me that if hitler was caught alive that his remaining days should have been spent regretting every thing he ever did. Sitting in a nice air conditioned/heated prison cell does not make me think that he will ever regret any of the things he ever did. But using torture might make him ask for forgiveness for all his crimes. Also maybe we could prevent others from doing things like this.

later,
 
Given that, I say that these types of people should be tortured.

And who decides who "these types of people" are? Your argument is so fundamentally flawed it's ridiculous.

"All those who use torture should be tortured themselves".

See the fundamental flaw in this? As you, yourself are advocating the use of torture, you should be tortured. Reap as you sow.
 
mariner, im sorry english is not my native language so I might not have put my words down properly.
Let me make simpler for you. If you do the following:
-genocide
-mass killings
-torture (for pleasure or info)
-rape squads
-plundering wealth

then you should have some form of torture inflicted on you. BTW torture in of itself does not imply bambo shotes up your fingernail. You can make them watch 24hrs/day of reality tv. ;) Seriously you can make them do hard labor, periodic sleep deprevantion, ....

In the last century I would think there were maybe a dozen people who should have been tortured. So please dont give me the it could happen to the average person. Unless your average person is a hitler, sadam, pol pot, stalin,....

"All those who use torture should be tortured themselves".
Please read what I said clearly:
You kill hundreds of thousands(to millions) of people, you have rape squads(and do a fair bit of raping yourself), you pillage your countries wealth and use it to keep yourself in power, and your enemies in prison. You yourself use torture both for pleasure and to gain info on those who want to bring you down.
I said you had to do many things before you should even be considered for it. Most people will never get to the level of sadam even if they tried.

I hope i made my point clearer. :)

later,
 
horvendile said:
Note: It's not about whether they deserved being tortured, but whether they should have been tortured.

I voted no simply because as bad and pathetic as they were torturing someone is not something I could do myself and I think it is a barbaric act. What do you think horvendile? Should they have been tortured?

EDIT: What would have caused the poll to be even less favorable for the Yes vote is the idea that you yourself would be the one to torture them.

In a way Democoders idea of pressing the button and someone dieing in China exemplifies this only the person dieing is far removed from the person pressing the button. When the person in favor of the torture is not actually forced to act on that moral conviction outside a simple voting poll it is much easier to say "sure torture the snot out of them then" rather then actually having do it themselves.
 
DemoCoder said:
Probably best to use more "humane" methods to torture them: sleep deprivation, harsh psychological treatment, etc.

lol, I assumed the question was regarding physical torture. These cases above are not the same. I agree with Democoder.
 
November 8 2001
By ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ
Alan M. Dershowitz is a Harvard law professor
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=LpxG7.42870$zK1.11056004@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com
The FBI's frustration over its inability to get material witnesses to talk has raised a disturbing question rarely debated in this country: When, if ever, is it justified to resort to unconventional techniques such as truth serum, moderate physical pressure and outright torture?

The constitutional answer to this question may surprise people who are not familiar with the current U.S. Supreme Court interpretation of the 5th Amendment privilege against self-incrimination: Any interrogation technique, including the use of truth serum or even torture, is not prohibited. All that is prohibited is the introduction into evidence of the fruits of such techniques in a criminal trial against the person on whom the techniques were used. But the evidence could be used against that suspect in a non-criminal case--such as a deportation hearing--or against someone else.

If a suspect is given "use immunity"--a judicial decree announcing in
advance that nothing the defendant says (or its fruits) can be used against him in a criminal case--he can be compelled to answer all proper questions. The issue then becomes what sorts of pressures can constitutionally be used to implement that compulsion. We know that he can be imprisoned until he talks. But what if imprisonment is insufficient to compel him to do what he has a legal obligation to do? Can other techniques of compulsion be
attempted?

Let's start with truth serum. What right would be violated if an immunized suspect who refused to comply with his legal obligation to answer questions truthfully were compelled to submit to an injection that made him do so?

Not his privilege against self-incrimination, since he has no such privilege now that he has been given immunity.

What about his right of bodily integrity? The involuntariness of the
injection itself does not pose a constitutional barrier. No less a civil
libertarian than Justice William J. Brennan rendered a decision that
permitted an allegedly drunken driver to be involuntarily injected to remove blood for alcohol testing. Certainly there can be no constitutional distinction between an injection that removes a liquid and one that injects a liquid.

What about the nature of the substance injected? If it is relatively benign and creates no significant health risk, the only issue would be that it compels the recipient to do something he doesn't want to do. But he has a legal obligation to do precisely what the serum compels him to do: answer all questions truthfully.

What if the truth serum doesn't work? Could the judge issue a "torture warrant," authorizing the FBI to employ specified forms of non-lethal physical pressure to compel the immunized suspect to talk?

Here we run into another provision of the Constitution--the due process clause, which may include a general "shock the conscience" test. And torture in general certainly shocks the conscience of most civilized nations.

But what if it were limited to the rare "ticking bomb" case--the situation in which a captured terrorist who knows of an imminent large-scale threat refuses to disclose it?

Would torturing one guilty terrorist to prevent the deaths of a thousand innocent civilians shock the conscience of all decent people?

To prove that it would not, consider a situation in which a kidnapped child had been buried in a box with two hours of oxygen. The kidnapper refuses to disclose its location. Should we not consider torture in that situation?


All of that said, the argument for allowing torture as an approved
technique, even in a narrowly specified range of cases, is very troubling. We know from experience that law enforcement personnel who are given limited authority to torture will expand its use. The cases that have generated the current debate over torture illustrate this problem. And, concerning the arrests made following the Sept. 11 attacks, there is no reason to believe that the detainees know about specific future terrorist targets. Yet there
have been calls to torture these detainees.


I have no doubt that if an actual ticking bomb situation were to arise, our law enforcement authorities would torture. The real debate is whether such torture should take place outside of our legal system or within it. The answer to this seems clear: If we are to have torture, it should be authorized by the law.

Judges should have to issue a "torture warrant" in each case. Thus we would not be winking an eye of quiet approval at torture while publicly condemning it.

Democracy requires accountability and transparency, especially when extraordinary steps are taken. Most important, it requires compliance with the rule of law. And such compliance is impossible when an extraordinary technique, such as torture, operates outside of the law
.
 
Deepak said:
They should have been put to trial! I don;t think anyone would have tortured Hitler had he been caught alive.
Just like Mussolini and Cocesceau were treated by their previous subjects?
 
Sabastian said:
What do you think horvendile? Should they have been tortured?

Certainly not, since I think that torture is not a punishment that belongs in a democratic law system. That is IMO one of the things that separate us from barbaric regimes.

EDIT: What would have caused the poll to be even less favorable for the Yes vote is the idea that you yourself would be the one to torture them.

Yes, but I didn't want it to look more bad for the Yes-side than necessary! The wording I chose is nearly exactly the one used by the yes-side in the thread i referred to. And I didn't see many protests (or much support for that matter), so I started wondering what people here thought about the matter - hence the poll.
 
The problem with the "torture warrant" idea (if torture is going to happen ANYWAY because of ticking bomb scenarios, it should atleast be transparent in the rare circumstances it occurs) is that people will point to that aspect being codified into law and say "See, the Americans are barbarbians"

So the difference between the French and others who conducted mass torture (e.g. Algeria) and continue to do today is that they have plausible deniability, whereas in the US case, it will be open for the world to see.

Imagine BBC news broadcasts covering the issuance of a "torture warrant" for a UK al-qaeda suspect. Imagine the outcry, and Blair intervening to try and get it overturned.

I say torture should be banned, and we know that law enforcement will be violated the law in ticking bomb cases anyway.
 
At no point have I state the the 2 sons of saddam should be tortured for information. I have clearly said in many posts that they should be tortured purely for punishments sake. No other reason. They did it to others, so they should feel some of that pain back.

later,
 
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