Thoughts regarding Gamecube development, and lack thereof...

[Natoma]

The only thing that ever bothers me about the ever shrinking pool of developers is perception. A lot of game companies complain that their software doesn't sell on Gamecube while the same game will sell much more on PS2 and XBox.

But really, what is it about that statement that raises an eyebrow? Imo, most Gamecube owners are what you would call "hardcore," i.e., the truly "average" gamer will get a PS2 or XBox simply because it's the "in" thing to have, and will buy a ton of games, whether they are good or bad.

A lot of my friends and family are like this. They play the most inane games, be it sports, shooters, etc, just because they're there. But the people that own GC systems that I know, in general, are more conscientious about what they purchase, and what they expect. Maybe GC owners are spoiled by Nintendo's attention to detail in all of their games.

To be honest, it's the strategy from Sony, i.e. "throw the sh*t at the wall until something sticks" that drove me away from the PS1, and then the PS2. I owned both for a few months, and sold them both when I realized that there was more and more crap being dumped out than good games.

So when I see developers complain that their games don't sell that well on GC systems, I would say that maybe they need to pay attention to the game itself, and make it higher quality. If you put a game like Onimusha, or Ico, or Shenmue, or Metal Gear or some other AAA game on GC I'm pretty sure it'd sell like hot cakes. Witness practically every GC SEGA game, and Capcom's games on the GC as well as witness that if you put out quality games on the GC, the gamers will buy it. But if you don't, the sales will suffer.

Now don't get me wrong, it does upset me that some companies are scaling back their plans for the GC because they see this trend of games tending to not sell well on the GC. But I wonder if that's more a reflection of the general lack of quality games that are tossed onto the Xbox and PS2 these days, rather than a failing of the GC.

I really don't know. But given the sales of games this time around, it sure seems to be that way.

 

[Almasy]

You seriously come off as thinking that the entire Xbox and PS2 library is comprised of crap.

The reality of the whole situation is pretty simple: the market has changed (and continues to) and Nintendo chose not to change with it. The whole perception and sales issues are just a direct consecuence of it.

 

[wazoo]

Now don't get me wrong, it does upset me that some companies are scaling back their plans for the GC because they see this trend of games tending to not sell well on the GC. But I wonder if that's more a reflection of the general lack of quality games that are tossed onto the Xbox and PS2 these days, rather than a failing of the GC.

Ps2 has the luxury to be the market leader and Xbox has the DX compatibility, so what may happen.

- if GC sales are bad, stop GC dev
- if xbox sales are bad, do a PC version
- if ps2 sales are bad, get out of business

IMO

and the truth is, 3rd party has to be very good on the GC to sell because of the good selling 1st party and the relatively low userbase. If the Gc userbase was higher and Nintendo release less compact (Zelda/Mario/Metroid in 6 months ), 3rd party would be higher.

Xbox, with the same userbase (a bit higher) enjoy higher 3rd party sales because of ONLY one really well selling 1st party. this let a lot of space for 3rd party.

I wonder how Rayman3 will sell on GC. Very high quality+GBA connection

 

[wazoo]

You seriously come off as thinking that the entire Xbox and PS2 library is comprised of crap.

The reality of the whole situation is pretty simple: the market has changed (and continues to) and Nintendo chose not to change with it. The whole perception and sales issues are just a direct consecuence of it.

Games only sell on marketing and hype. If one game you like sell well, you praise the massmarket but if one game you like does not sell you call them idiots, but at the end of the day, it is always the same sheep population.

 

[iscariot]

fact is, the GC doesn't have enough of 'casual sheep' to have extremely sucessful 3rd party sales. These so-called hardcore are too focused on the almighty Nin10do 1st party lineup apparentley and even then, 1st party sales are lower than expected for whatever reason( NOA )

To be honest, it's the strategy from Sony, i.e. "throw the sh*t at the wall until something sticks" that drove me away from the PS1, and then the PS2. I owned both for a few months, and sold them both when I realized that there was more and more crap being dumped out than good games.

strange since ps 2 owns GC as far as the quanity of quality titles, perhaps not ratio wise but what would that matter But you being teh hardcore N fan, it's understandable. (i was one once )

Witness practically every GC SEGA game, and Capcom's games on the GC as well as witness that if you put out quality games on the GC, the gamers will buy it. But if you don't, the sales will suffer.

every GC sega game...that'd be Sonic remakes and SMB. Oh and sega sports titles that sold a couple hundred copies...perhaps more than PSI&II Capcom games? They're selling like sh*t...but then again, they're all remakes and ports too...

 

[Natoma]

You seriously come off as thinking that the entire Xbox and PS2 library is comprised of crap.

The reality of the whole situation is pretty simple: the market has changed (and continues to) and Nintendo chose not to change with it. The whole perception and sales issues are just a direct consecuence of it.

Well what I come off as and what my intentions are are two completely different beasts. What I wrote is that there are quality titles on the Xbox and PS2. However, if you examine the libraries of both, I believe the mass volume of games are indeed filler/crap/detritus/whatever you wish to call it.

Perusing the aisles at my local videogame shops for GC, Xbox, and PS2 games, and I spend the bulk of my time looking at games that are crap while I'm in the Xbox and PS2 sections, yet I see those very same games flying off the shelves.

I call those games crap from playtesting them, reading reviews offline and online, and talking to my friends that play them. A lot of people I've heard talk about GTA3: Vice City, for instance, say it's complete crap. Just a total and utter rehash of GTA3, but worse.

Now, I can't really say this for certain through my own experience. But considering that when I walk from my house to the subway, I can see two to three movie like ads for the game, is it any wonder that the world buys this game en masse?

Now, as to the market changing. I think that the market has indeed matured to a certain extent in terms of gamer age. However, I don't think that a quality game needs to necessarily have gore, blood, or deal with adult themes. I think that's a common misconception.

As I said in my post, look at a game like Resident Evil. That series has sold tremendously on the GC. Why? Because it's a good game, with great graphics, and sounds. It has also been upgraded tremendously to support the GC hardware natively, instead of being a straight-to-port rehash like a lot of other cross-platform games that come out these days.

I stand by my original premise that the overall quality of games on other systems has gone down, in no small part thanks to Sony and their attitude with regard to making and selling games. If you throw enough sh*t at the wall, eventually something will stick. As a former PS1 and PS2 owner, and a future Xbox owner (when I get some cash), that's what I see when I walk up and down the aisles in a regular videogame store.

 

[Natoma]

To be honest, it's the strategy from Sony, i.e. "throw the sh*t at the wall until something sticks" that drove me away from the PS1, and then the PS2. I owned both for a few months, and sold them both when I realized that there was more and more crap being dumped out than good games.

strange since ps 2 owns GC as far as the quanity of quality titles, perhaps not ratio wise but what would that matter But you being teh hardcore N fan, it's understandable. (i was one once )

That was my problem with the PS1 and PS2 though. Thousands of games, maybe 50-100 worth buying? When I say "worth buying" I mean above average --> great. Like I said, maybe GC gamers are spoiled. I dunno.

Witness practically every GC SEGA game, and Capcom's games on the GC as well as witness that if you put out quality games on the GC, the gamers will buy it. But if you don't, the sales will suffer.

every GC sega game...that'd be Sonic remakes and SMB. Oh and sega sports titles that sold a couple hundred copies...perhaps more than PSI&II Capcom games? They're selling like sh*t...but then again, they're all remakes and ports too...

I was looking at the capcom sales figures and 1.5 million "resident evil 1" sold world wide didn't look too bad to me. Aren't most developers happy when their software sells over 500K copies?

 

[zurich]

So basically, GC is doing poorly because its too cool/hardcore for the majority of consumers? Sounds like a pretty bad business model to me.

IMO, it seems more like Nintendo's sitting happily in the black, and therecore doesn't care. Should the black (god forbid) slowly turn to red, then "effort", "promotion", and "change" will occur.

 

[Natoma]

So basically, GC is doing poorly because its too cool/hardcore for the majority of consumers? Sounds like a pretty bad business model to me.

IMO, it seems more like Nintendo's sitting happily in the black, and therecore doesn't care. Should the black (god forbid) slowly turn to red, then "effort", "promotion", and "change" will occur.

You're twisting what I said and what I meant.

But the people that own GC systems that I know, in general, are more conscientious about what they purchase, and what they expect. Maybe GC owners are spoiled by Nintendo's attention to detail in all of their games.

That doesn't say or hint at anything regarding coolness or whatever. What it does say is that people that purchase the GC, I have found, tend to be pickier and discerning with regard to the quality of games they will purchase, and tend to slough off the crap. As I said in my first post on this thread, this is completely based on the people I know that own a GC, compared with the people I know that own or want a PS2/Xbox.

 

[Sonic]

Nintendo's quality of games is enough to scare the average developer away considering such a low userbase. Generally speaking, I don't think many adult themed games would do all to well on GCN considering the demographic Nintendo is specifically aiming for.

I wouldn't go too far as saying the GCN is home to a completely hardcore userbase, as the way I see it is a way of hardcore Nintendo loyalists owning the Cube. But that's a good thing for Nintendo, as these gamers get their fix from Nintendo and that's pretty much all they need.

Regarding the quality number of games compared to the Xbox and PS2. It's kind of evident that if your core base of buyers are hard to appeal to then the number of quality games should be higher than usual compared to the crap games that get released. But this still doesn't negate the fact that Xbox and PS2 have a greater number of quality games than the GCN does.

PS2 has a good 50 million userbase worldwide. I'd rather have a PS2 for the variety of games and greater number of quality titles than a Gamecube for having such a limited amount of titles to choose from regardless of their quality or not. So there may be 500 games on the PS2, and 400 of them may be crap, but that means those other 100 are worth looking at. And that's more than I can say for the GCN or Xbox.

But even the Xbox has more titles I would pick over the GCN, and more quality titles to boot. This is of course my opinion, so others may view it in a different light, which is cool.

But thank God that Nintendo released the Cube, because where else am I going to be able to play a title like Zelda or Mario. Those are great games, and gems that should please most people.

 

[marconelly!]

A lot of people I've heard talk about GTA3: Vice City, for instance, say it's complete crap. Just a total and utter rehash of GTA3, but worse.

Oh my God, in what a crazy place you must be living... There is *nothing* that I can think of in GTA:VC that is worse than GTA3. And that's hardly even an opinion, as it's easily quantifiable in gameplay/graphics/control etc. comparisions.

The rest of your rant ranges from just as delusional, to pretty much ignorant. I really don't know if I should even comment on all that if you can't see flaws in your thinking for yourself, but your whole rant could be countered by the infamous saying:

"Everyone agrees 99.9% of the internet content is comprised of the complete crap, but everyone chooses different 0.1% for which he claims is actually good"

 

[Natoma]

Uhm, ok? There's no ranting or delusions in my post. If you disagree then that's fine. hehe. I didn't write this as the end all be all of everything console. As I said, this post was written via my own experiences with these consoles, as well as my friends and family.

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Kolgar]

Nintendo systems sell to people who want Nintendo-made games. That's why the hardware exists. That's why Nintendo makes it; that's why people buy it.

Gamecube is in its own little world, in a different business model designed specifically to sell Nintendo-brand games. Comparing Gamecube to PS2 or Xbox is practically pointless.

Kolgar

 

[Blade]

Kolgar: Actually, no.

While Nintendo is mostly looking out for themselves here, they're also trying to gain a 3rd-party presence on the GameCube.

Honestly, people aren't going to pay $149-199 for an extra console just for a few dozen (1st/2nd-party) games over 5 years. Nintendo knows this, and this is why they're trying to rekindle their relationship with 3rd-parties. Sadly, it's taking certain developers (*cough* Konami, among others) for-freakin-ever to release worthwhile games.. which is why GameCube isn't doing so hot.

Meanwhile, companies like Sega and Capcom (among others) are stock-piling quality games for the system.. and reaping the benefits. That's basically what it's all about.. quality games. Sadly, the big names seem to wait until nobody cares to release high-profile ports. Some of them are pulling a "Konami" by not releasing any high-profile games at all.. then they complain about people not buying anything.

I mean, okay.. sports games aren't going to sell too well. That much has been said. Otherwise, build it and they will come. Neglect it, and you're looking at a no.3 game console that's only getting support from the 1st-party and a handful of 3rd-parties.

 

[Goldni]

I've got 17 damn good games for my GCN. And 6 incredible ones for my Xbox. Yes I am an informed buyer. I've always said alot of your Nintendo fans are. It might have all started back when carts were alot more exspensive for N64. We had to be picky!

Look at sports games sales. Most of us hardcore gamers will buy a sports game or two but not lap them up like the casual sheep do. Hence GCn sports games' sales vs XB,PS2. Look at Turok E. In all practicality it should have done really well on the GCN given that's the ppl who bought the series of Turok games last generation (N64). But it sold the least on the GCN..cause we knew it was shit.

 

[archie4oz]

Perusing the aisles at my local videogame shops for GC, Xbox, and PS2 games, and I spend the bulk of my time looking at games that are crap while I'm in the Xbox and PS2 sections, yet I see those very same games flying off the shelves.

Well for one, your crap may be somebody else's cream... Objectifying games is a tricky business because they appeal to personal tastes. It's really no different from movies.

I owned both for a few months, and sold them both when I realized that there was more and more crap being dumped out than good games.

Not to be crass, but owning a system only a few months is kind've stupid... That's hardly enough time to really enjoy a few titles, and not really long enough for factors to change...

I stand by my original premise that the overall quality of games on other systems has gone down, in no small part thanks to Sony and their attitude with regard to making and selling games.

This has little to do with Sony other than their current position in the market. Switch Nintendo with Sony and guess what? Nintendo will have a ton of crap on their system (They've already been there once). It's more the nature of the position than the company.

What it does say is that people that purchase the GC, I have found, tend to be pickier and discerning with regard to the quality of games they will purchase, and tend to slough off the crap.

Not really... People with a GCN mainly own them for Nintendo games or their parents bought the system because of Nintendo's reputation for "child-friendly" titles. Unless the GCN is the only system you own, there's a good chance that if a title is on another platform, said person may buy the title for that platform unless there's incentive to get the GCN version (assuming they have both/all systems). The problem is that many GCN titles get the shit end of the stick.

I can't think of a dev that absolutely hates the GCN, however in reality it matters little because there's two other systems out there with potentially better sales potential and unless you've got extensive cross-platform development capabilities supporting multiple platforms gets to be a pain in the ass. In fact it starts to pretty much destroy the benefit of that "everybody has the same thing" beauty of console dev and can arguably make it worse than PC dev in terms of support. The only real potential you have these days on the GCN is to make it exclusive and make it DAMN good because it's REALLY hard to compete with Nintendo's titles on their platform.

I mean, okay.. sports games aren't going to sell too well. That much has been said. Otherwise, build it and they will come. Neglect it, and you're looking at a no.3 game console that's only getting support from the 1st-party and a handful of 3rd-parties.

The problem with that thought is that the time for "build it and they will come" has passed. It's not exactly the easiest thing to pitch a title for GCN when there's two other systems out there with more sales potential and the user loyalty to first party titles isn't quite so strong...

 

[Kolgar]

Blade: While Nintendo says it's encouraging third-party developers to produce games for Gamecube, I think the reality is that Nintendo is still too preoccupied with selling its own software to really make good on the rhetoric.

That's just my opinion, though.

On the other side of the coin is the people who actually buy Nintendo consoles, and more and more, I believe this has become a niche market of dedicated Nintendo fans who just cannot live without Mario or Zelda.

But what the heck - it seems to work out. Nintendo produces a games console that lets it sell its games, and that lets Nintendo fans play those games. For all other purposes, there's PS2 or Xbox.

Kolgar

 

[zurich]

Blade: While Nintendo says it's encouraging third-party developers to produce games for Gamecube, I think the reality is that Nintendo is still too preoccupied with selling its own software to really make good on the rhetoric.

That's just my opinion, though.

On the other side of the coin is the people who actually buy Nintendo consoles, and more and more, I believe this has become a niche market of dedicated Nintendo fans who just cannot live without Mario or Zelda.

But what the heck - it seems to work out. Nintendo produces a games console that lets it sell its games, and that lets Nintendo fans play those games. For all other purposes, there's PS2 or Xbox.

Kolgar

Couldn't have said it better Kolgar.

Hmmm, think Nintendo and Apple will merge?

 

[archie4oz]

Hmmm, think Nintendo and Apple will merge?

It's an interesting thought, but unlikely... If anybody, Sony would be the most likely to just simply acquire them. Although there's been a lot of interesting banter in the MacAch at ArsT over the idea of using something along the line of Gekko and Flipper (in a different, more PC friendly implementation of course) in a cheap, headless replacement for the eMac (although it would have to outperform a 745x though which Gekko simply won't do at the same clock).

 

[Sonic]

That niche market appears to be growing smaller with each passing generation. And it doesn't look like it will reverse. Nintendo can afford to support its own console based upon one thing alone, and that is the portable market. Nintendo pretty much owns the hand held market and that's something that they may want to think about. Competition in that industry should be heating up as both Sony and Microsoft are looking to jump into the market. That's going to be a tough one to crack, I don't see how Sony could enter the market unless they have a huge marketing blitz and a fairly competent machine that's really easy to program for. Microsoft can make it a seamless effort by releasing a pocketPC that has gaming functions on it. But Nintendo's next offering in the portable market should be something to go crazy about.

Other than that, I think it is inevitable for Nintendo to become a software only company itself while still maintaining a sizeable portion of the handheld market. But as far as consoles are concerned, I don't think the next generation will look as favorably for Nintendo as it does this one, which isn't all that favorable to begin with. Nintendo has the potential to completely blow past MS with the Xbox if htey just marketed the GCN the right way and aimed for a more general demographic. But Nintendo doesn't seem to be able to flow wiht the times and is trying to create its own market, it's only some time before they will either be forced to conform with the rest of the industry, or until they are forced into becoming a 3rd party. But that's the direction they are headed for anyway.

Sonic