This is really disturbing

Joe DeFuria said:
Natoma said:
I love you Joe. Cold-Hearted Conservative to the end. ;)

I'd return the sentiment, but then I would be subjecting that sentiment to the typical liberal game of "make up some perceived intention" to go along with it. I'd rather not risk what that perceived intention might be, considering your sexual orientation. ;)

:LOL:

touche touche :devilish:
 
I'm sorry, but I can't muster too much sympathy for the girl. She put herself in front of a bulldozer...not just a bulldozer, but a bulldozer driven by an Isreali soldier hell bent on leveling the home of a believed terrorist. If she did it in an act of blind stupidity, then it was her own fault. If she did it to be a martyr, then sympathy for her death isn't what she was after. There is a fine line between nobility and stupidity; I think she was straddling the line.

That said, her death did put the spotlight back on the tensions between Israel and Palestine, however brief it will remain there. So as tragic or as stupid as you want to see the situation, you are seeing the situation; she did not die in vain. My prayers go out to her family.
 
If she did it in an act of blind stupidity, then it was her own fault.

Even though if it is an act of blind stupidity, that girl didn't deserve to die in such manner.

It was because of intolerance and cruelty that the girl died. May she rest in peace.
 
V3: That girl sought out danger. She got in the way of a moving bulldozer, for crying out loud! It's not as if she was a poor palestinian girl caught in the fray with no way to escape...she took it upon herself to go over and get involved, and as noble as you may feel her motives were, you have to admit that she put herself in the situation that kiled her. We will never know if the driver saw her, or if he intentionally ran her over. Keep in mind that the press can have a tendancy to sensationalize things a bit...I know, shocking but true. All other reports of the incident I have read have said that it was an accident, and they as well had eyewitness reports. In my opinion, the truth probably lies somewhere in between. Keep in mind also that Israel is bulldozing the homes of terrorists. They aren't just randomly levelling all Palestinian homes, they are trying to put the screws to those Palestinians who keep bombing and terrorizing Israelis. They are at war, and I'm not justifying what the Israelis are doing, I'm saying that there are two sides to the story.

My point is, this girl chose to enter an extremely hostile situation and threw herself in the middle of an Israeli military operation...and I'm supposed to feel bad that she died because of it? There were many many ways that she could have safely pushed for peace. She could have fundraised for aid, worked for the Red Cross over there, tried to place the children orphaned by this war with loving families in safe locations, gone around this country to rally support and put the pressure on our government to get serious about helping to solve their problems....there are a number of ways she could have safely helped. She chose the dangerous path. That may have been the more noble route, but it unsurprisingly lead to her demise. I mourn the loss of life in general, and I, too, want her soul to be at peace. But I am not blaming the soldiers whose war she stepped into.
 
V3: That girl sought out danger. She got in the way of a moving bulldozer, for crying out loud!

Bulldozer can stop. The Soldiers can drag her out of the dangerous situation. By force if required. Its not like the other side have no other choices.

If a drunkard walking in the middle of busy street, wouldn't you or the police try to remove him from there ?

We will never know if the driver saw her, or if he intentionally ran her over.

The driver is incompetence ? I don't think so.

My point is, this girl chose to enter an extremely hostile situation and threw herself in the middle of an Israeli military operation...and I'm supposed to feel bad that she died because of it?

I don't know about you, but I feel REALLY bad, about seeing/hearing anyone ran over by bulldozer. This case is no different.

There were many many ways that she could have safely pushed for peace.

There is also other way than running over protestor to bulldoze a house. I find it hard to belive, that they can't remove protestor off the site first. They are bulldozing houses afterall, why can't they take a step to remove protestors off the site?

Like I said before they are just intolerance and cruel.
 
Those bulldozers are a military design, they were built to protect the driver as they push dirt and soil over entrenched positions. The kind of device that would have been handy during the first world war.

They are thickly shielded and have bullet proof windows. Even though the girl had a mega-phone the driver wouldn't have heard her.

I agree with Joe on this, it wasn't the drivers responsibility the get out of the way. She stood on a growing pile of debris in front of the bulldozer and a terrible accident happend. But it was her own choice to take the risk.

I think that the task she was undertaking, as a peace protester, was laudable. But it had risks, especially in a country like Israel.

A terrible accident that shouldn't have happend. Almost worthy of a Darwin award.
 
See more here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,917178,00.html
Activist's memorial service disrupted

Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
Wednesday March 19, 2003
The Guardian

Israeli forces fired teargas and stun grenades yesterday in an attempt to break up a memorial service for Rachel Corrie, the American peace activist killed by an army bulldozer in Gaza on Sunday.
Witnesses including several dozen foreigners and Palestinian supporters say Israeli armoured vehicles tried to disperse the gathering at the spot in Rafah refugee camp where Ms Corrie was crushed to death.

The 23 year-old activist with the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) was trying to prevent the destruction of Palestinian homes by the Israelis when she was hit by the bulldozer.

Joe Smith, a young activist from Kansas City, said about 100 people were gathered to lay carnations and erect a small memorial when the first armoured personnel carrier appeared.

"They started firing teargas and blowing smoke, then they fired sound grenades. After a while it got hectic so we sat down. Then the tank came over and shot in the air," he said. "It scared a lot of Palestinians, especially the shooting made a lot of them run and the teargas freaked people out. But most of us stayed."

Another witness said the army failed to break up the service.

"People were laying carnations at the spot where Rachel was killed when a tank came and fired teargas right on them. Then a core group of the peace activists took an ISM cloth banner to the fence and pinned it up.

"The tank chased after them trying to stop them with teargas but the wind was against the army," she said.

Tensions rose further when a convoy of vehicles, including the bulldozer that killed Ms Corrie, passed the area.

"I don't think it was deliberate but it was pretty insensitive," said Mr Smith.

"I think they had been destroying some buildings elsewhere and had to pass by to get back to their base."

The army said it was investigating the incident.
Yes, it is the guardian info (now someone will refut it) and unfortunatelly she was one more innocent victim of stupidity and violence.

What now? Will US want a UN resolution against Israelis? After 35 US vetos blindinglly supporting all acts of violence?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,916299,00.html
Rachel's war

This weekend 23-year-old American peace activist Rachel Corrie was crushed to death by a bulldozer as she tried to prevent the Israeli army destroying homes in the Gaza Strip. In a remarkable series of emails to her family, she explained why she was risking her life

Tuesday March 18, 2003
The Guardian

February 7 2003

Hi friends and family, and others,

I have been in Palestine for two weeks and one hour now, and I still have very few words to describe what I see. It is most difficult for me to think about what's going on here when I sit down to write back to the United States. Something about the virtual portal into luxury. I don't know if many of the children here have ever existed without tank-shell holes in their walls and the towers of an occupying army surveying them constantly from the near horizons. I think, although I'm not entirely sure, that even the smallest of these children understand that life is not like this everywhere. An eight-year-old was shot and killed by an Israeli tank two days before I got here, and many of the children murmur his name to me - Ali - or point at the posters of him on the walls. The children also love to get me to practice my limited Arabic by asking me, "Kaif Sharon?" "Kaif Bush?" and they laugh when I say, "Bush Majnoon", "Sharon Majnoon" back in my limited arabic. (How is Sharon? How is Bush? Bush is crazy. Sharon is crazy.) Of course this isn't quite what I believe, and some of the adults who have the English correct me: "Bush mish Majnoon" ... Bush is a businessman. Today I tried to learn to say, "Bush is a tool", but I don't think it translated quite right. But anyway, there are eight-year-olds here much more aware of the workings of the global power structure than I was just a few years ago.

Nevertheless, no amount of reading, attendance at conferences, documentary viewing and word of mouth could have prepared me for the reality of the situation here. You just can't imagine it unless you see it - and even then you are always well aware that your experience of it is not at all the reality: what with the difficulties the Israeli army would face if they shot an unarmed US citizen, and with the fact that I have money to buy water when the army destroys wells, and the fact, of course, that I have the option of leaving. Nobody in my family has been shot, driving in their car, by a rocket launcher from a tower at the end of a major street in my hometown. I have a home. I am allowed to go see the ocean. When I leave for school or work I can be relatively certain that there will not be a heavily armed soldier waiting halfway between Mud Bay and downtown Olympia at a checkpoint with the power to decide whether I can go about my business, and whether I can get home again when I'm done. As an afterthought to all this rambling, I am in Rafah: a city of about 140,000 people, approximately 60% of whom are refugees - many of whom are twice or three times refugees. Today, as I walked on top of the rubble where homes once stood, Egyptian soldiers called to me from the other side of the border, "Go! Go!" because a tank was coming. And then waving and "What's your name?". Something disturbing about this friendly curiosity. It reminded me of how much, to some degree, we are all kids curious about other kids. Egyptian kids shouting at strange women wandering into the path of tanks. Palestinian kids shot from the tanks when they peak out from behind walls to see what's going on. International kids standing in front of tanks with banners. Israeli kids in the tanks anonymously - occasionally shouting and also occasionally waving - many forced to be here, many just agressive - shooting into the houses as we wander away.

I've been having trouble accessing news about the outside world here, but I hear an escalation of war on Iraq is inevitable. There is a great deal of concern here about the "reoccupation of Gaza". Gaza is reoccupied every day to various extents but I think the fear is that the tanks will enter all the streets and remain here instead of entering some of the streets and then withdrawing after some hours or days to observe and shoot from the edges of the communities. If people aren't already thinking about the consequences of this war for the people of the entire region then I hope you will start.

My love to everyone. My love to my mom. My love to smooch. My love to fg and barnhair and sesamees and Lincoln School. My love to Olympia.

Rachel

February 20 2003


Mama,

Now the Israeli army has actually dug up the road to Gaza, and both of the major checkpoints are closed. This means that Palestinians who want to go and register for their next quarter at university can't. People can't get to their jobs and those who are trapped on the other side can't get home; and internationals, who have a meeting tomorrow in the West Bank, won't make it. We could probably make it through if we made serious use of our international white person privilege, but that would also mean some risk of arrest and deportation, even though none of us has done anything illegal.

The Gaza Strip is divided in thirds now. There is some talk about the "reoccupation of Gaza", but I seriously doubt this will happen, because I think it would be a geopolitically stupid move for Israel right now. I think the more likely thing is an increase in smaller below-the-international-outcry-radar incursions and possibly the oft-hinted "population transfer".

I am staying put in Rafah for now, no plans to head north. I still feel like I'm relatively safe and think that my most likely risk in case of a larger-scale incursion is arrest. A move to reoccupy Gaza would generate a much larger outcry than Sharon's assassination-during-peace-negotiations/land grab strategy, which is working very well now to create settlements all over, slowly but surely eliminating any meaningful possibility for Palestinian self-determination. Know that I have a lot of very nice Palestinians looking after me. I have a small flu bug, and got some very nice lemony drinks to cure me. Also, the woman who keeps the key for the well where we still sleep keeps asking me about you. She doesn't speak a bit of English, but she asks about my mom pretty frequently - wants to make sure I'm calling you.

Love to you and Dad and Sarah and Chris and everybody.

Rachel

February 27 2003


(To her mother)

Love you. Really miss you. I have bad nightmares about tanks and bulldozers outside our house and you and me inside. Sometimes the adrenaline acts as an anesthetic for weeks and then in the evening or at night it just hits me again - a little bit of the reality of the situation. I am really scared for the people here. Yesterday, I watched a father lead his two tiny children, holding his hands, out into the sight of tanks and a sniper tower and bulldozers and Jeeps because he thought his house was going to be exploded. Jenny and I stayed in the house with several women and two small babies. It was our mistake in translation that caused him to think it was his house that was being exploded. In fact, the Israeli army was in the process of detonating an explosive in the ground nearby - one that appears to have been planted by Palestinian resistance.

This is in the area where Sunday about 150 men were rounded up and contained outside the settlement with gunfire over their heads and around them, while tanks and bulldozers destroyed 25 greenhouses - the livelihoods for 300 people. The explosive was right in front of the greenhouses - right in the point of entry for tanks that might come back again. I was terrified to think that this man felt it was less of a risk to walk out in view of the tanks with his kids than to stay in his house. I was really scared that they were all going to be shot and I tried to stand between them and the tank. This happens every day, but just this father walking out with his two little kids just looking very sad, just happened to get my attention more at this particular moment, probably because I felt it was our translation problems that made him leave.

I thought a lot about what you said on the phone about Palestinian violence not helping the situation. Sixty thousand workers from Rafah worked in Israel two years ago. Now only 600 can go to Israel for jobs. Of these 600, many have moved, because the three checkpoints between here and Ashkelon (the closest city in Israel) make what used to be a 40-minute drive, now a 12-hour or impassible journey. In addition, what Rafah identified in 1999 as sources of economic growth are all completely destroyed - the Gaza international airport (runways demolished, totally closed); the border for trade with Egypt (now with a giant Israeli sniper tower in the middle of the crossing); access to the ocean (completely cut off in the last two years by a checkpoint and the Gush Katif settlement). The count of homes destroyed in Rafah since the beginning of this intifada is up around 600, by and large people with no connection to the resistance but who happen to live along the border. I think it is maybe official now that Rafah is the poorest place in the world. There used to be a middle class here - recently. We also get reports that in the past, Gazan flower shipments to Europe were delayed for two weeks at the Erez crossing for security inspections. You can imagine the value of two-week-old cut flowers in the European market, so that market dried up. And then the bulldozers come and take out people's vegetable farms and gardens. What is left for people? Tell me if you can think of anything. I can't.

If any of us had our lives and welfare completely strangled, lived with children in a shrinking place where we knew, because of previous experience, that soldiers and tanks and bulldozers could come for us at any moment and destroy all the greenhouses that we had been cultivating for however long, and did this while some of us were beaten and held captive with 149 other people for several hours - do you think we might try to use somewhat violent means to protect whatever fragments remained? I think about this especially when I see orchards and greenhouses and fruit trees destroyed - just years of care and cultivation. I think about you and how long it takes to make things grow and what a labour of love it is. I really think, in a similar situation, most people would defend themselves as best they could. I think Uncle Craig would. I think probably Grandma would. I think I would.

You asked me about non-violent resistance.

When that explosive detonated yesterday it broke all the windows in the family's house. I was in the process of being served tea and playing with the two small babies. I'm having a hard time right now. Just feel sick to my stomach a lot from being doted on all the time, very sweetly, by people who are facing doom. I know that from the United States, it all sounds like hyperbole. Honestly, a lot of the time the sheer kindness of the people here, coupled with the overwhelming evidence of the wilful destruction of their lives, makes it seem unreal to me. I really can't believe that something like this can happen in the world without a bigger outcry about it. It really hurts me, again, like it has hurt me in the past, to witness how awful we can allow the world to be. I felt after talking to you that maybe you didn't completely believe me. I think it's actually good if you don't, because I do believe pretty much above all else in the importance of independent critical thinking. And I also realise that with you I'm much less careful than usual about trying to source every assertion that I make. A lot of the reason for that is I know that you actually do go and do your own research. But it makes me worry about the job I'm doing. All of the situation that I tried to enumerate above - and a lot of other things - constitutes a somewhat gradual - often hidden, but nevertheless massive - removal and destruction of the ability of a particular group of people to survive. This is what I am seeing here. The assassinations, rocket attacks and shooting of children are atrocities - but in focusing on them I'm terrified of missing their context. The vast majority of people here - even if they had the economic means to escape, even if they actually wanted to give up resisting on their land and just leave (which appears to be maybe the less nefarious of Sharon's possible goals), can't leave. Because they can't even get into Israel to apply for visas, and because their destination countries won't let them in (both our country and Arab countries). So I think when all means of survival is cut off in a pen (Gaza) which people can't get out of, I think that qualifies as genocide. Even if they could get out, I think it would still qualify as genocide. Maybe you could look up the definition of genocide according to international law. I don't remember it right now. I'm going to get better at illustrating this, hopefully. I don't like to use those charged words. I think you know this about me. I really value words. I really try to illustrate and let people draw their own conclusions.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Just want to write to my Mom and tell her that I'm witnessing this chronic, insidious genocide and I'm really scared, and questioning my fundamental belief in the goodness of human nature. This has to stop. I think it is a good idea for us all to drop everything and devote our lives to making this stop. I don't think it's an extremist thing to do anymore. I still really want to dance around to Pat Benatar and have boyfriends and make comics for my coworkers. But I also want this to stop. Disbelief and horror is what I feel. Disappointment. I am disappointed that this is the base reality of our world and that we, in fact, participate in it. This is not at all what I asked for when I came into this world. This is not at all what the people here asked for when they came into this world. This is not the world you and Dad wanted me to come into when you decided to have me. This is not what I meant when I looked at Capital Lake and said: "This is the wide world and I'm coming to it." I did not mean that I was coming into a world where I could live a comfortable life and possibly, with no effort at all, exist in complete unawareness of my participation in genocide. More big explosions somewhere in the distance outside.

When I come back from Palestine, I probably will have nightmares and constantly feel guilty for not being here, but I can channel that into more work. Coming here is one of the better things I've ever done. So when I sound crazy, or if the Israeli military should break with their racist tendency not to injure white people, please pin the reason squarely on the fact that I am in the midst of a genocide which I am also indirectly supporting, and for which my government is largely responsible.

I love you and Dad. Sorry for the diatribe. OK, some strange men next to me just gave me some peas, so I need to eat and thank them.

Rachel

February 28 2003


(To her mother)

Thanks, Mom, for your response to my email. It really helps me to get word from you, and from other people who care about me.

After I wrote to you I went incommunicado from the affinity group for about 10 hours which I spent with a family on the front line in Hi Salam - who fixed me dinner - and have cable TV. The two front rooms of their house are unusable because gunshots have been fired through the walls, so the whole family - three kids and two parents - sleep in the parent's bedroom. I sleep on the floor next to the youngest daughter, Iman, and we all shared blankets. I helped the son with his English homework a little, and we all watched Pet Semetery, which is a horrifying movie. I think they all thought it was pretty funny how much trouble I had watching it. Friday is the holiday, and when I woke up they were watching Gummy Bears dubbed into Arabic. So I ate breakfast with them and sat there for a while and just enjoyed being in this big puddle of blankets with this family watching what for me seemed like Saturday morning cartoons. Then I walked some way to B'razil, which is where Nidal and Mansur and Grandmother and Rafat and all the rest of the big family that has really wholeheartedly adopted me live. (The other day, by the way, Grandmother gave me a pantomimed lecture in Arabic that involved a lot of blowing and pointing to her black shawl. I got Nidal to tell her that my mother would appreciate knowing that someone here was giving me a lecture about smoking turning my lungs black.) I met their sister-in-law, who is visiting from Nusserat camp, and played with her small baby.

Nidal's English gets better every day. He's the one who calls me, "My sister". He started teaching Grandmother how to say, "Hello. How are you?" In English. You can always hear the tanks and bulldozers passing by, but all of these people are genuinely cheerful with each other, and with me. When I am with Palestinian friends I tend to be somewhat less horrified than when I am trying to act in a role of human rights observer, documenter, or direct-action resister. They are a good example of how to be in it for the long haul. I know that the situation gets to them - and may ultimately get them - on all kinds of levels, but I am nevertheless amazed at their strength in being able to defend such a large degree of their humanity - laughter, generosity, family-time - against the incredible horror occurring in their lives and against the constant presence of death. I felt much better after this morning. I spent a lot of time writing about the disappointment of discovering, somewhat first-hand, the degree of evil of which we are still capable. I should at least mention that I am also discovering a degree of strength and of basic ability for humans to remain human in the direst of circumstances - which I also haven't seen before. I think the word is dignity. I wish you could meet these people. Maybe, hopefully, someday you will.

Rachel

A more comprehensive collection of Rachel's emails can be found at Guardian.co.uk/israel
 
More here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,915725,00.html

Israeli army bulldozer crushes US peace protester in Gaza Strip

Peace campaigner killed as Israeli army destroys homes in Palestinian refugee camp

Chris McGreal in Jerusalem and Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
Monday March 17, 2003
The Guardian

An Israeli army bulldozer crushed an American peace activist to death in the Gaza Strip yesterday in what witnesses described as a deliberate killing. Rachel Corrie, 23, died as she attempted to prevent the military destroying homes in the Rafah refugee camp, one of the most dangerous in the occupied territories.
"She was standing on top of a pile of earth," said another activist, Richard Purssell, who was a few feet away. "The driver cannot have failed to see her. As the blade pushed the pile, the earth rose up. Rachel slid down the pile. It looks as if she got her foot caught. The driver didn't slow down; he just ran over her. Then he reversed the bulldozer back over her again. She was very courageous."

Other activists said the bulldozer had approached from several metres away and that Ms Corrie, who was wearing a brightly coloured jacket, was waving and they were shouting at the driver to stop but he ignored them.

Witnesses said another protester had been slightly injured about half an hour earlier when the same bulldozer knocked him into barbed wire.

Ms Corrie was one of eight foreign volunteers - four from the US and four from Britain - with the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) seeking to block house demolitions.

Mr Purssell, from Brighton, said that earlier an Israeli tank protecting the bulldozer had attempted to drive protesters away with warning shots and teargas. But there had been no trouble immediately before Ms Corrie was crushed.

Doctors at al-Najar hospital said she had died from skull and chest fractures. The Israeli military described the death as a "very regrettable accident".

"We are dealing with a group of protesters who are acting very irresponsibly, putting everyone in danger - the Palestinians, themselves and our forces - by intentionally placing themselves in a combat zone," the army said.

An Israeli military official later claimed there was limited visibility, especially on the ground immediately in front of the vehicle, from the windows of the armoured bulldozers used by the army.

ISM volunteers frequently act as human shields to hinder demolitions, delay the construction of the new "security" wall in the West Bank or to help protect Palestinians harvesting their crops under threat from Jewish settlers.

An ISM spokesman in America said yesterday that Ms Cor rie was a student in Olympia, Washington, who had been in the area for about a month.

She is the first foreign peace activist killed in the occupied territories during the past 2 years of intifada.

Another witness, Mansour Abed Allah, a Palestinian human rights worker in Rafah, said it was ironic that an American should be killed by a US-made bulldozer: "America is providing Israel with tanks and bulldozers, and now they killed one of their own people."

In an email this month, Ms Corrie described a February 14 confrontation with another Israeli bulldozer in which she referred to herself and other activists as "internationals".

"The internationals stood in the path of the bulldozer and were physically pushed with the shovel backwards, taking shelter in a house," she wrote. "The bulldozer then proceeded on its course, demol ishing one side of the house with the internationals inside."

After her death, the movement called on the US government, the UN and the international community "to uphold international law and respect the Geneva convention". It also demanded that the US halt the sale of weapons and Caterpillar bulldozers used in the destruction of Palestinian buildings.

Rafah refugee camp is surrounded by Jewish settlements and army posts. Palestinian civilians say they are frequent victims of random shootings by the military and settlers. Children are often among the dead.

The Israeli military has imposed "full closure" on the occupied territories this week to coincide with the Jewish holiday of Purim. The order prevents any Palestinians crossing into Israel.
 
Pascal,

"I don't think it was deliberate but it was pretty insensitive," said Mr Smith.

"I think they had been destroying some buildings elsewhere and had to pass by to get back to their base."

Come on Pascal. I thought you were smarter than to just take sensationalized spoon feb propaganda at face value.
 
What now? Will US want a UN resolution against Israelis? After 35 US vetos blindinglly supporting all acts of violence?

It is quite appaling to see the pure hatred of the U.S. manifest itself in such ways. Again, I thoght you were better than that, Pascal. You really do think the U.S. is so blatantly selfish that such a hypocritical thing would be persued?

If the U.S. says anything official at all, I'm quite sure it will be very similar to what I'm saying. "Her conviction is admirable, and her death is tragic and unfortunate."
 
Bulldozer can stop. The Soldiers can drag her out of the dangerous situation.

It is not their job to rescue idiots. Like it or not, if you get in the way of a military operation, any country's military operation, you must be prepared to face the consequences of your uninvited involvement.

If a drunkard walking in the middle of busy street, wouldn't you or the police try to remove him from there ?[/qoute]

Um, what? Ok, first of all, alcohol impairs judgement. A person has a very limited sense of danger when drunk. Secondly, in the US I fully expect someone to guide the intoxicated individual to safety without question. Here are the flaws in your scenerio: The girl was sober, acting with her senses intact, and was not in the US, but a war torn country. The two situations are completely different.

They are bulldozing houses afterall, why can't they take a step to remove protestors off the site?

You talk as if they were bulldozing to make room for a new guest house or something. They are levelling the homes of terrorists. They aren't contractors out to do a job, they are soldiers on a mission. If you don't see a major difference in that, then nothing I can say will make you see my point. These soldiers are on a mission. It's not a job, it's not a weekend project, it's a mission.

Has the entire world forgotten the attrocities that the Palestinians have committed over the past four decades? I feel badly for the innocents, but let's face it, the PLO has major humanity issues.

http://www.terrorism.com/terrorism/PLO.shtml] Some info on the PLO[/url]

Granted, they were ordered into peace...but we have all seen the news. Peace just ain't happenin'. Forty years of terrorist acts against a country kind of creates tensions. Israel has said "Enough!" They aren't going to take it anymore, and I don't think they should. They have been persecuted throughout history and I say it's about time that they take a hardline stance to protect their people. I am not supporting the rouge acts of violence committed by Israelis, not at all. But I do firmly support the Israeli government in their quest to get rid of terrorists. My heart does not bleed for the PLO or anyone who supports them.
 
MrsSkywalker said:
It is not their job to rescue idiots. Like it or not, if you get in the way of a military operation, any country's military operation, you must be prepared to face the consequences of your uninvited involvement.

well i do belive she was prepared to face the consequences so that is beside the point. what i am curious about is that it seems like you are you saying that if people are willing to kill people who don't even want to kill anyone, we should just respect that for what it is? also, sense they are getting paid to do what they are doing, that makes the death that they bring justified? am i just confused by your comments here or is that what you mean?
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Pascal,

"I don't think it was deliberate but it was pretty insensitive," said Mr Smith.

"I think they had been destroying some buildings elsewhere and had to pass by to get back to their base."

Come on Pascal. I thought you were smarter than to just take sensationalized spoon feb propaganda at face value.
I dont get it at face value but I will not hide it. The link and quote is there, then just filter it, find more info take your conclusions.
 
kyleb said:
well i do belive she was prepared to face the consequences so that is beside the point.

I can't speak for MrsSkywalker, but since I agree with the post, I'll share my opinion.

First off, it's not beside the point. You like to just attach your beliefs and ideals to others, when you have no justification for doing so....other than perhaps she supports "the side" of the conflict that you support.

I am not that presumptuous. Different individuals have different motives...even those who support the same end cause. You say she understood the risk. I say I'm not so sure.

what i am curious about is that it seems like you are you saying that if people are willing to kill people who don't even want to kill anyone, we should just respect that for what it is?

The first thing you must understand, is that we DON'T KNOW if she supports the killing of people, or wants people killed. That is an assumption on your part. And certainly would be an assumption that the military would have to makt. It's reasonable to assume that she, at that moment, was not any direct threat to the driver. It's also reasonable to assume that she doesn't want to see palestinians killed. But that says nothing about her desire to see others killed, or her support for others to kill Isralies.

Maybe yes? Maybe no? Maybe if we read more about her and her cause, we might have a better understanding. Do you think the driver has that luxury?

The driver is part of a military operation. As far as he is concerned, what he is doing is saving the lives of his people, and making it safer for his people. That's the purpose of his mission.

Anything that gets in the way of that mission, is putting his people at greater risk. You say she doesn't want to kill anyone. As far as he is concerned, by her very presence there and impairing of his missin, she is putting israeli civilians at risk, and can ultimately result in their death.

As far as he is concerned, he doesn't have the option of getting out of the vehcile, as he may be foricbly restrained from getting back in.

As far as the military is concerned, having additional soldiers around "policing" the situation to get "rid of protestors" puts THEM at greater risk of poalestinian resistance and attack.

That is the difference between when a MILITARY operation clashes with "protestors", and in contrast, say to two "protests" from different ideals clashing with one another.

The two situations are entirely different, and they come with and entirely different set of risks.

One should not EXPECT the military to alter course because of protests. One might hope...one might believe that the individual driving the dozer goes against orders to protect his own citizens due to the pshycological conflict of having to kill an someone to get the job done...but one should not expect it to happen.

also, sense they are getting paid to do what they are doing, that makes the death that they bring justified?

Where does that have anything to do with it? And was that implied by MrsSkywalker? The point of him being in the military is NOT that he's getting paid. It's that the military is carrying out orders of it's government / people for their OWN humanitarian purpose...the ensuring the protection and safety of it's people.

That is different than a "contractor" who's doing a job to build a new house or level ground for a new parking lot.

am i just confused by your comments here or is that what you mean?

Confused.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
What now? Will US want a UN resolution against Israelis? After 35 US vetos blindinglly supporting all acts of violence?

It is quite appaling to see the pure hatred of the U.S. manifest itself in such ways. Again, I thoght you were better than that, Pascal. You really do think the U.S. is so blatantly selfish that such a hypocritical thing would be persued?

If the U.S. says anything official at all, I'm quite sure it will be very similar to what I'm saying. "Her conviction is admirable, and her death is tragic and unfortunate."
Sorry, but I find it very disturbing when people die this way while trying to really help other people. Also it is more disturbing when some people (not you) try to qualify her as "idiot". We should have more respect for people lifes. :(

Sometimes I ask myself what if US had a less condecendent position with Israelis. Be hard with BOTH sides and make them stop all this absurd situation.
 
pascal said:
Sorry, but I find it very disturbing when people die this way while trying to really help other people.

I find it tragic as well. Though I find it equally as tragic when people don't even consider that the Israeli military (including the bulldozer drivers) is on his own mission to help other people.

Also it is more disturbing when some people (not you) try to qualify her as "idiot". We should have more respect for people lifes. :(

Agreed. However, she might really not have taken into consideration the risks. And if she didn't, that's not smart at all. We don't know, so I don't make the presumption either way, just offer the different possibilities.

Sometimes I ask myself what if US had a less condecendent position with Israelis. Be hard with BOTH sides and make them stop all this absurd situation.

And sometimes, I ask myself if everyone else had a less condecendent position toward the U.S...

And I honestly think that if you believe you can "make" both sides stop, without introducing our own brand of oppression, that is an absurd position to take.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
pascal said:
Sorry, but I find it very disturbing when people die this way while trying to really help other people.

I find it tragic as well. Though I find it equally as tragic when people don't even consider that the Israeli military (including the bulldozer drivers) is on his own mission to help other people.

Then they have the right to kill? I suppose any bulldozer operation in urban area with civilians is to be taken with care and skill.

Joe DeFuria said:
Also it is more disturbing when some people (not you) try to qualify her as "idiot". We should have more respect for people lifes. :(

Agreed. However, she might really not have taken into consideration the risks. And if she didn't, that's not smart at all. We don't know, so I don't make the presumption either way, just offer the different possibilities.
Smart or not it was her option which is not subject of questioning. The unnecessary violent act IMHO is arguable.


Joe DeFuria said:
Sometimes I ask myself what if US had a less condecendent position with Israelis. Be hard with BOTH sides and make them stop all this absurd situation.

And sometimes, I ask myself if everyone else had a less condecendent position toward the U.S...

And I honestly think that if you believe you can "make" both sides stop, without introducing our own brand of oppression, that is an absurd position to take.
But US had already introduced its own brand of oppression in one side only, which is IMHO an unbalanced position. IMHO both sides have to make concessions and work toward peace.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
kyleb said:
well i do belive she was prepared to face the consequences so that is beside the point.

First off, it's not beside the point. You like to just attach your beliefs and ideals to others, when you have no justification for doing so....other than perhaps she supports "the side" of the conflict that you support.

she left the safe shores of our country to enter a war zone; as i said "i belive" as in i find it most likely, to say i have no justification is a mockery of logic. also, why do you presume she had a taken a "side" when, you do not that we do not always have to pick a "side" don't you?

Joe DeFuria said:
I am not that presumptuous. Different individuals have different motives...even those who support the same end cause. You say she understood the risk. I say I'm not so sure.

well no one said you had to be sure.

Joe DeFuria said:
The first thing you must understand, is that we DON'T KNOW if she supports the killing of people, or wants people killed.

but as long as you are not sure then anything goes?

Joe DeFuria said:
That is an assumption on your part. And certainly would be an assumption that the military would have to makt. It's reasonable to assume that she, at that moment, was not any direct threat to the driver. It's also reasonable to assume that she doesn't want to see palestinians killed. But that says nothing about her desire to see others killed, or her support for others to kill Isralies.

i am speaking of the evidence we have; you are the one venturing into assumption there.

Joe DeFuria said:
Maybe yes? Maybe no? Maybe if we read more about her and her cause, we might have a better understanding. Do you think the driver has that luxury?

he sure did as life is what we make of it.

Joe DeFuria said:
The driver is part of a military operation. As far as he is concerned, what he is doing is saving the lives of his people, and making it safer for his people. That's the purpose of his mission.

so as long as it is your goal to save some people, killing others is acceptable?

Joe DeFuria said:
Anything that gets in the way of that mission, is putting his people at greater risk.?

do you think he found the bullhorn or the bright colored jacket more threatening?

Joe DeFuria said:
You say she doesn't want to kill anyone. As far as he is concerned, by her very presence there and impairing of his missin, she is putting israeli civilians at risk, and can ultimately result in their death.

As far as he is concerned, he doesn't have the option of getting out of the vehcile, as he may be foricbly restrained from getting back in.

As far as the military is concerned, having additional soldiers around "policing" the situation to get "rid of protestors" puts THEM at greater risk of poalestinian resistance and attack.

so it is all right to kill as fair as your concerned, assuming the killer is concerned as well? were does concern for life come in on this? just on the life you care to concern yourself with?


Joe DeFuria said:
That is the difference between when a MILITARY operation clashes with "protestors", and in contrast, say to two "protests" from different ideals clashing with one another.

The two situations are entirely different, and they come with and entirely different set of risks.

so seeing as you say they are entirely different situations. does that mean that protestors are not people, or military are not people? or are the situations not actually so different as you claimed?

Joe DeFuria said:
One should not EXPECT the military to alter course because of protests. One might hope...one might believe that the individual driving the dozer goes against orders to protect his own citizens due to the pshycological conflict of having to kill an someone to get the job done...but one should not expect it to happen.

welll obviously, i never argued otherwise.


Joe DeFuria said:
Where does that have anything to do with it? And was that implied by MrsSkywalker? The point of him being in the military is NOT that he's getting paid. It's that the military is carrying out orders of it's government / people for their OWN humanitarian purpose...the ensuring the protection and safety of it's people.

she said what his job was not, she said what his job was; and by definition of job, pay is a part of the situation no matter how much you refuse to admit it.
 
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