This is really disturbing
- Thread starter Natoma
- Start date
CosmoKramer
Newcomer
OMG!!! Now it's serious becuse an american has been killed!!!
Joe DeFuria
Legend
Certainly tragic.
However, not unexpected that something like this was bound to happen.
So no, Cosmo, the fact that this is an American make no difference.
Same with the deaths of any "willing human shields" that may perish in Iraq. (I heard on the Radio that some UK "shields" wrote a note to the UK government "asking" not to bomb places they are protecting?)
Tragic? Absolutely. But they either know the risks going in, or are foolish to go in without evaluating the risks.
However, not unexpected that something like this was bound to happen.
So no, Cosmo, the fact that this is an American make no difference.
Same with the deaths of any "willing human shields" that may perish in Iraq. (I heard on the Radio that some UK "shields" wrote a note to the UK government "asking" not to bomb places they are protecting?)
Tragic? Absolutely. But they either know the risks going in, or are foolish to go in without evaluating the risks.
so you are saying it is her own fault that she decided not to live in fear and stay out of the way of the oppression of others? or more to the point she should have known that the driver of the bulldozer did not have the soul to keep himself from running her over? i am sorry that what i said comes out as blunt as it does but i am at a loss to understand your logic so i feel it is important to state my concerns directly.
Kyleb:
Either:
A) She knew what she was doing and what risks it entailed.
B) She was foolish.
Joe said nothing of the sort that "she got what she deserved".
Either:
A) She knew what she was doing and what risks it entailed.
B) She was foolish.
Joe said nothing of the sort that "she got what she deserved".
It's not like she was the victim of munitions fire. She was murdered Joe. If she were a human shield and got hit with a bullet or bombed, I could understand. But the guy was on a bulldozer and obviously had plenty of time to contemplate what he was doing.
In all honesty, I think he probably mistook her for a palestinian. Think about it. How often do we hear about things like this when it's a palestinian? Not very often, if ever.
But as soon as it's an american, then we hear about it. So it kind of makes me think, gee, does this kind of thing go on often? Is this one of the reasons why the palestinians hate the israelis enough to blow themselves up?
I'm just shocked and saddened by the whole situation... Sigh.
In all honesty, I think he probably mistook her for a palestinian. Think about it. How often do we hear about things like this when it's a palestinian? Not very often, if ever.
But as soon as it's an american, then we hear about it. So it kind of makes me think, gee, does this kind of thing go on often? Is this one of the reasons why the palestinians hate the israelis enough to blow themselves up?
I'm just shocked and saddened by the whole situation... Sigh.
Joe DeFuria
Legend
kyleb said:
First of all, we don't know the exact circumstances around her death. Was it accidental, or was it deliberate? Don't presume either one. I don't.
To the point, she damn well should have known that putting herself in front of machinery like that carries the risk of being killed, either deliberately or accidentally.
Again, her death, like all deaths, are tragic. I'm not placing any "blame" for her death.
However, she willingly and purposefully put herself in circumstances that are highly dangerous. And to that extent, she bears some responsibility for her own death.
Uhm, she had a bullhorn, she was in plain sight of the person on the bulldozer, and she was waving her arms.
I think that constitutes murder. Bulldozers are not particularly fast vehicles, so it definitely wasn't just an "accident."
I'm not saying that she wasn't risking her life merely by being there in the first place. But she was definitely murdered.
I know it's comical, but you remember that scene in the first Austin Powers movie where the guy was screaming "Noooooooooooooo!" over and over again at Mike Myers and Elizabeth Hurley, and he was like 100ft away from their vehicle? It took like 5 minutes for them to finally roll over the guy. The point is, from the pictures and the description of what occurred, the guy had plenty of time to actually let his humanity kick in and not run over her.
Screw the orders.
I think that constitutes murder. Bulldozers are not particularly fast vehicles, so it definitely wasn't just an "accident."
I'm not saying that she wasn't risking her life merely by being there in the first place. But she was definitely murdered.
I know it's comical, but you remember that scene in the first Austin Powers movie where the guy was screaming "Noooooooooooooo!" over and over again at Mike Myers and Elizabeth Hurley, and he was like 100ft away from their vehicle? It took like 5 minutes for them to finally roll over the guy. The point is, from the pictures and the description of what occurred, the guy had plenty of time to actually let his humanity kick in and not run over her.
Screw the orders.
Did you read the article? Even as written by the electronic intifada, it plainly states she climbed on top of the dirt pile in front of a moving bulldozer, and got caught up in the dirt.
Or should we believe the account at the beginning of the article where the bulldozer dumped dirt on her first, then ran over her twice?
Or should we believe the account at the beginning of the article where the bulldozer dumped dirt on her first, then ran over her twice?
Joe DeFuria
Legend
Natoma said:
I can't believe people are so quick to rush to judgment based on the version of the story they want to believe is true, "Armchair bulldozer operators". You believe what you want. I'm content to believe I'll never get the real story. Accident or deliberate...or something inbetween.
To the point: It has no consequence on my opinion on the matter. She bears partial responsibility for her own death, however it occurred.
I saw this on cnn.com last night while reading this article:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/17/mideast.violence/index.html
It sounds like she was run over deliberately, and the pictures on that page natoma linked to seem to suggest that as well. I think anyone who goes to that region on peace missions accepts some above normal risk of being killed simply because of the nature of the area. However, that doesn't make a situation like this any more excusable. IMO, Israelis and Palistinians both needs to get their shit together. I think Israel has the right to attack the Palistinian terrorist regimes in order to defend themselves, but they can't be blinded by their anger to the point that they're treating the general civilian populace the same as the terrorists, especially foreign civilians armed with nothing more than a horn.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/17/mideast.violence/index.html
It sounds like she was run over deliberately, and the pictures on that page natoma linked to seem to suggest that as well. I think anyone who goes to that region on peace missions accepts some above normal risk of being killed simply because of the nature of the area. However, that doesn't make a situation like this any more excusable. IMO, Israelis and Palistinians both needs to get their shit together. I think Israel has the right to attack the Palistinian terrorist regimes in order to defend themselves, but they can't be blinded by their anger to the point that they're treating the general civilian populace the same as the terrorists, especially foreign civilians armed with nothing more than a horn.
CosmoKramer
Newcomer
To clarify myself a bit (to avoid misunderstandings) - I certainly do feel that it's tragic, just no more or no less tragic than when Palestinians or Israeli civilians die.
Joe DeFuria
Legend
KyleB said:
huh?
Who said anything like Isareal has a history of all peace?
Q: "so you are saying it is her own fault that she decided not to live in fear and stay out of the way of the oppression of others?"
No. In fact, her actions are to be commended assuming she fully understood the risks and was thus willing to accept them.
Again, making assumptions. But to humor you, presumably she was there BECAUSE she felt the israleis have "no soul." So yes, she should have certainly entertained that situation (being purposefully murdered) as a possibility.
we all have souls, i imagine she believed that as well as i do; and she was merely trying to help others see the same. i am certain she knew damn well the possibilities and understand that she could have avoided the situation. however; i respect her faith in human nature regardless of the results, and i detest the mentality that proved her wrong.
Joe DeFuria said:
I would go as far as too argue that she bears full responsibility for her own death. Such a foolhardy act it boarders on stupid. Look at one of these things in the background here, this is not your everyday sort of bulldozer. AFAICT it looks millitary and quite dangerous.
These protestors are really fooling them selves if they think that because they are Americans Israel will change its political agenda. The only way that Palestien will ever be fully realized is for Palestinians to recognize Israel as a state that has a legitamate right to exist. Otherwise I would expect Israel to continue treating Palestine as something other then legitimate.
Joe DeFuria
Legend
Natoma said:I love you Joe. Cold-Hearted Conservative to the end.
I'd return the sentiment, but then I would be subjecting that sentiment to the typical liberal game of "make up some perceived intention" to go along with it. I'd rather not risk what that perceived intention might be, considering your sexual orientation.
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