The saddest joke ever.

[Goragoth]

The bible is fundamentally broken and so is all religion. Give me one good reason that we need religion. Educated people with good morals should not need a religion and history is full of attrocities commited in the name of God. I don't think religious people are neccessarily bad people but I cannot understand how someone educated can believe anything religions say. I mean, the inquestion, the witch hunts, the crusades, just to name a few; how do people justify this? The twin-towers bombing would never have happened without religion. It isn't the root of all evil for sure but it is resonsible for a lot of deaths.

That said, I'm totally for religious tollerance and just because I don't get it doesn't mean I'm going to force my views on anyone. As long as it doesn't negatively affect me any religion is fine, its personal choice. It should never EVER influence politics however. A politician, especially a president/prime minister should not let personal believes influence his/her actions and should never mention religion in a speech to the public if for no other reason than that it is insulting to anybody how does not share his/her beliefs.

Religion on its own, when not taken to extremes, is generally fine but it should be kept away from politics. FAR away.

 

[Dave H]

well he [Bush] keeps telling us god is behind us on this [the war with Iraq], and i don't understand were he comes up with that.

This is a common misnomer, but it's simply not true. Please find a direct quotation (with link) in which Bush (or anyone else in the administration for that matter) has said or even implied that God is behind a war with Iraq or supports the American side against the rest of the world. Since he "keeps telling us" this, and every public utterance he makes is easily found on the Internet, it should be pretty easy.

I wish I could say that I don't understand where people like you come up with distortions like this, but I have a decent idea...

(BTW: I'm an atheist and am against most all of Bush's positions regarding church/state. But to suggest that Bush is invoking religion to justify the war is incorrect and smacks of anti-religious bigotry. Incidentally, our last two Democratic presidents were also born-again Christians, so if you think Bush is at all unusual in this regard you haven't been paying attention.)

 

[L233]

I think if you actually questioned George W. Bush on his religious beliefs, you'll find that he isn't a "fundamentalist", in the strict sense of the word.

He's a methodist, which is pretty darn close to a Catholic, which is about as far from "fundamentalist" as you can get. (According to the fundamentalists).

Meeep. Wrong. Bush is a "born again" Christian. He might have been a methodist for the biggest part of his life but he didn't use to be a particularly religious person until Billy Graham helped him to overcome his alcoholism anyway.

Now he's your plain vanilla religious whacko on a mission and therefor the most dangerous man in the world - because other religious fanatics don't have the biggest military juggernaught and the biggest stockpile of WMD in the history of mankind at their disposal.

The German weekly Der Spiegel (the most influental publication in the German speaking world) actually published a cover story about Bush's beliefs a couple of weeks ago. It's available in English:
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/english/0,1518,236692,00.html

 

[epicstruggle]

why dont we pass a law banning religion. And then tie any one associated with religious views and drop them in the middle of the ocean. Lets blame religion for just about every problem in history. Do you want the truth. Wars have traditionally started to gain power. Religions is usually used as an excuse, or an after thought.

As a hindu, Ill trust just about anybody elses religion before i trust an atheist. To me an atheist could change their morals on a whim, to suit their needs.

later,

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Now he's your plain vanilla religious whacko on a mission and therefor the most dangerous man in the world -

The German weekly Der Spiegel (the most influental publication in the German speaking world) actually published a cover story about Bush's beliefs a couple of weeks ago.

Why would I not be surprised if this same publicaction or similar was the most influencial in Germany around, say 1930...

 

[JF_Aidan_Pryde]

Joe,

Did you read the article? It's got nothing spectacularly new in terms of info but does bring a different perspective on what's going on in terms of religion. It was pretty well written IMO.

 

[RussSchultz]

I'm sorry L233, but being "born again" does not make you a fundamentalist. I grew up in Texas and attended an independant Baptist church as a teen. I know the difference.

That Der Speigal "article" (i.e. long op-ed piece) was pretty much nothing but hate filled rhetoric. It's frightening that its coming from the most influential publication in the german speaking world. Many of the "facts" presented are wrong and/or misleading and how could you not notice the overwhelming charged language used?

It is a good example of propaganda, though. Lets stir up fear of those "whackos". I'm suprised the author didn't slip and start referring to die Juden and their Purim pastries filled with baby's blood.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Joe,

Did you read the article? It's got nothing spectacularly new in terms of info but does bring a different perspective on what's going on in terms of religion. It was pretty well written IMO.

It gives a frightenting perspective on intolerance for differing religious views. Well written piece of propaganda perhaps.

 

[Snyder]

As a hindu, Ill trust just about anybody elses religion before i trust an atheist. To me an atheist could change their morals on a whim, to suit their needs.

I understand your argument (in fact, it is one I've often discussed with some friends of mine), but be assured, Atheism isn't a must to suit one's morals to one's needs - History proved that countless times.

From a different (admittedly cynical) viewpoint: An atheist or agnostic (which I am seeing myself as) doesn't have a bunch of rules as an excuse for his actions. He has to carry the full weight of the effects of his actions, he has to constantly ask himself: Am I doing things right?
No religion doesn't mean no ethics.

To be "a good person" has not very much to do with the religious beliefs (or lack thereof) of said person, IMO.

Oh, and sorry for my English - I haven't had much ethical/religious discussions in English yet...

 

[CosmoKramer]

Grown up people thinking that the only alternative to be so weak/dumb to be needing a psychologial Santa Claus is to be an atheist need to use their brainscell(s?). Perhaps there are other ways to view the world?

Same goes for grown up people thinking that you need religion to have morals.

 

[arjan de lumens]

As a hindu, Ill trust just about anybody elses religion before i trust an atheist. To me an atheist could change their morals on a whim, to suit their needs.

(Just had to, speaking as an atheist)

My impression is very much the opposite: atheists, not having any holy scriptures/rule-books/leaders' words to blindly fall back on, tend to be much more consciously aware of morals and the distinction between right and wrong than other people. Most atheists as such end up as Secular Humanists, with morals that tend to be extremely resistant to change.

Conversely, a Christian (or any religious person) is free to change his morals immediately if he or his leaders decide that the Bible (or other Holy text) can/must be interpreted in a new and different way than before - the many ambiguities in the Bible and the existence of ~20 000 denominations of Christianity indicates to me that there is lots of room for people to reinterpret the Bible in whichever manner might suit their needs best. I'd be surprised if this doesn't apply to other religions as well.

Here is a list of some of the most common ways to misrepresent and malign atheists, and debunkings thereof. Worth a read.

And, to conclude, a random statistic for you:
About 10% of the US population are atheists.
About 1% of the US prison population are atheists.
If that proves that atheists can change their morals on a whim, then be my guest.

 

[RussSchultz]

Arjun, do you have any proof/statistics to back up your opinions that religious and/or atheists are more/less resistant to changing their mores? I personally don't think there's any correlation.

 

[arjan de lumens]

Primarily personal experience, which is why I put it forth as "impression" rather than "absolute fact".

 

[kyleb]

tend to agree, i have to say that it is based on the simple fact that god is all around us. while atheists do not subscribe to the notion of god, they still learn from god though out their lives. however, such understanding is not swayed by popular condense so the atheist is more likely to give credit to the truths of creation such as those discovered by Galileo, while those who held to popular opinion oppressed him as a heretic. granted i am a theist, and atheists would probably disagree with the basis for my argument; but i just call it how i see it.

 

[Sabastian]

Well I can honestly say that to assume that atheist in general are more astute in terms of morals *cough* is an absolutely rediculous suggestion. I have met some rather unsavoury atheist in my time while my grandparents (mothers side) are very Christian and are likely some of the absolutely best sort of people you could ever meet. BTW they don't change their religion or their morals regularly or anything of the sort. Also the hypocrisy with humanist is that they want to turn their movement into a religion, funny that. Just read their manifesto and you can see where their demands are quite religious. Pure hypocracy.

http://www.americanhumanist.org/about/manifesto1.html

I dislike humanism.

 

[Pete]

I just wanted to say that that Der Spiegel article was an ill-disguised, spiteful, colossally-biased polemic disguised as a "cover story." A more shameful example of "journalism" I have trouble recalling.

 

[kyleb]

well there are all sorts of humanists, if you want to see some really wild "humanist" ideology, check out this:

http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm

 

[MrsSkywalker]

In my opinion, if all this snobby elitist can find to harp on the US about is our collective belief in God (or higher power), that's fine by me!

 

[MrsSkywalker]

Athiesm (sp?) confuses me greatly. I have always believed in God, having a Catholic father and a Presbyterian mother. I was exposed to many different religions as a child (my mother's decision, and one I am eternally greatful for), but was baptized, raised and then confirmed in the Catholic religion. As a young adult, there were some extremely difficult situations I went through that made me question my religion, and denounce my confirmation. Not even in the harshest of times did I even consider that there was no God...not once, not even for a second.

I was driving on a very icy road late at night during a powerful snowstorm. I had two of my kids with me at the time, and, needless to say, I was driving with the utmost caution. As we were starting to go down a hill, I slammed on my brakes. I had no idea why, I just put my foot to the floor. I sat there for a second, saying to myself, "What the hell do you think you're doing?" and went to step on the gas, when a car shot out of a side street right in front of me. Apparently he couldn't stop, because his brake lights were on, so I know he was trying to. The car passed so close in front of my that it made my car shake. If I hadn't slammed on the brakes when I did, the car most certainly would have hit me. Anyone who has ever driven on an icy road can tell you that you don't slam the brakes on, especially going downhill.

So, athiests, agnostics, and humanists: What made me stop if not God?

As far as the rest of the world seeing us as a nation that believes in God, well, that can only be a good thing in my opinion. I take no offense whatsoever, and it kind of irks me that others do. Even if you are an athiest, agnostic, or humanist, what's the problem with living in a country with a strong base in faith? It's what built this country, and what has sustained us as a society for so long.

Isn't it odd that we are seen as a country with a strong belief in God when actually in this country the Pledge of Allegiance my be outlawed in schools because God is mentioned?

 

[arjan de lumens]

As an atheist, I will try to answer: People tend to be subconsciously aware of a lot more than they are consciously aware of, which under certain circumstances will cause you to react reflexively faster than you get aware of what you are reacting to. That, at least, is my first guess as to what happened.

The Pledge of Allegiance didn't contain any references to God until sometime in the 1950's - IIRC, the words "under God", which were recently judged illegal, were added in 1952. Also, the available documentation on the religious beliefs of the Founding Fathers indicate that they were mostly Deists (believing that a God indeed created the world, but then essentially left it alone ever after) - take a look here for a load of quotes indicating that they were rather critical of traditional Christianity.