The Second American Revolution

The USA is just as responsible for the 12 years as any other nation. The whole world sat back after the Gulf War happened. UN or no UN, wouldn't have changed that. Most of the world, including the US, wasn't bothered by Iraq because they concluded them contained.

Not entirely true. While I believe we should have done more, the US and the UK were watching all along. In 1998, Iraq was once again refusing weapons inspectors into the country. In November of that year, Clinton ordered that the inspectors be allowed in. Hussein continued his cat and mouse game, and in December of 1998, the US and the UK lead an offensive against Iraq called Operation Desert Fox to take out weapons of mass destruction. In the three day missle campaign, more missles were fired at strategic locations in Baghdad than in all of the Gulf War.

No one considered them contained.

Actually, was just looking more in depth into the issue. I found a timeline of events from right after the Gulf War leading up to Operation Desert Fox.

http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/desert_fox/timeline.html

We didn't ignore the issue.
 
RM. Andersson said:
Most countries represented in the UN are not democratic. They dont care about human rights. The inividuals speaking for such nations have interests that are very different compared to the interests of the people in the country they are supposed to represent.

This is reality. It´s pointless to deniey it. The UN is not UDN, United Democratic Nations.
If it was it might be best to always let them decide what to do.
In reality UN would still inspect a Iraq ruled by Saddam Husseins grandchildren 2045 if they continued with their metods and logic.

In reality UN protects the interests of the dictators. They use UN to stay in power and continue to murder their own people.
UN is a tool they can use to stop anyone that wants to do anything.
Anyone that care about human rights and democracy must realize this.
The dictator has rights protected by the UN because he is equal to any democratic leader. And that means that UN often cant do anything.
Any attempt to stop a dictator can be prevented because he has the rights of his nation. Some of the worst regimes, such as China, also has the right to veto and can stop anything.

The UN is of course better than nothing. Sometimes UN can prevent wars.
But this does not mean that it is always best to let them decide.


Now UN exist to protect the interrest of dictators? :rolleyes:
Is not your country dictating to the world what to do like the Iraq´s war?

UN was invented by US but when it doesnt do what you want then it is qualified and a "dictator protector"??

Since US lost its interrest in UN then maybe it is time to move UN from NY to Paris.
 
MrsSkywalker

US sabotaged the OPCW work, see it here: http://www.monbiot.com/dsp_article.cfm?article_id=504
A War Against the Peacemaker
A War Against the Peacemaker

The US wants to depose the diplomat who could take away its pretext for war with Iraq
By George Monbiot. Published in the Guardian 16th April 2002


On Sunday, the US government will launch an international coup. It has been planned for a month. It will be executed quietly, and most of us won't know what is happening until it's too late. It is seeking to overthrow 60 years of multilateralism, in favour of a global regime built on force.


The coup begins with its attempt, in five days' time, to unseat the man in charge of ridding the world of chemical weapons. If it succeeds, this will be the first time that the head of a multilateral agency will have been deposed in this manner. Every other international body will then become vulnerable to attack. The coup will also shut down the peaceful options for dealing with the chemical weapons Iraq may possess, helping to ensure that war then becomes the only means of destroying them.


The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) enforces the Chemical Weapons Convention. It inspects labs and factories and arsenals and oversees the destruction of the weapons they contain. Its director-general is a workaholic Brazilian diplomat called Jose Bustani. He has, arguably, done more in the past five years to promote world peace than anyone else on earth. His inspectors have overseen the destruction of two million chemical weapons and two-thirds of the world's chemical weapon facilities. He has so successfully cajoled reluctant nations that the number of signatories has risen from 87 to 145 in the past five years: the fastest growth rate of any multilateral body in recent times.


In May 2000, as a tribute to his extraordinary record, Bustani was re-elected unanimously by the member states for a second five-year term, even though he had yet to complete his first one. Last year Colin Powell wrote to him to thank him for his "very impressive" work. But now everything has changed. The man celebrated for his remarkable achievements has been denounced as an enemy of the people.


In January, with no prior warning or explanation, the US State Department asked the Brazilian government to recall him, on the grounds that it did not like his "management style". This request directly contravenes the Chemical Weapons Convention, which states "the Director-General ... shall not seek or receive instructions from any government." Brazil refused. In March, the US government accused Bustani of "financial mismanagement", "demoralization" of his staff, "bias" and "ill-considered initiatives". It warned that if he wanted to avoid damage to his reputation, he must resign.


Again, the US was trampling the convention, which insists that member states shall "not seek to influence" the staff. He refused to go. On March 19th, the US proposed a vote of no-confidence in Mr Bustani. It lost. So it then did something unprecedented in the history of multilateral diplomacy. It called a "special session" of the member states to oust him. The session begins on Sunday. And this time the US is likely to get what it wants.


Since losing the vote last month, the United States, which is supposed to be the organisation's biggest donor, has been twisting the arms of weaker nations, refusing to pay its dues unless they support it, with the result that the OPCW could go under. Last week Bustani told me, "the Europeans are so afraid that the US will abandon the convention that they are prepared to sacrifice my post to keep it on board." His last hope is that the United Kingdom, whose record of support for the organisation has so far been exemplary, will make a stand. The meeting on Sunday will present Blair's government with one of the clearest choices it has yet faced between multilateralism and the "special relationship".


The US has not sought to substantiate the charges it has made against Bustani. The OPCW is certainly suffering from a financial crisis, but that is largely because the United States first unilaterally capped its budget and then failed to pay what it owed. The organisation's accounts have just been audited and found to be perfectly sound. Staff morale is higher than any organisation as underfunded as the OPCW could reasonably expect. Bustani's real crimes are contained in the last two charges, of "bias" and "ill-considered initiatives".


The charge of bias arises precisely because the OPCW is not biased. It has sought to examine facilities in the United States with the same rigour with which it examines facilities anywhere else. But, just like Iraq, the US has refused to accept weapons inspectors from countries it regards as hostile to its interests, and has told those who have been allowed in which parts of a site they may and may not inspect. It has also passed special legislation permitting the president to block unannounced inspections, and banning inspectors from removing samples of its chemicals.


"Ill-considered initiatives" is code for the attempts Bustani has made, in line with his mandate, to persuade Saddam Hussein to sign the Chemical Weapons Convention. If Iraq agrees, it will then be subject to the same inspections -- both routine and unannounced -- as any other member state (with the exception, of course, of the United States). Bustani has so far been unsuccessful, but only because, he believes, he has not yet received the backing of the UN Security Council, with the result that Saddam knows he would have little to gain from signing.


Bustani has suggested that if the Security Council were to support the OPCW's bid to persuade Iraq to sign, this would provide the US with an alternative to war. It is hard to see why Saddam Hussein would accept weapons inspectors from UNMOVIC -- the organisation backed by the Security Council -- after its predecessor UNSCOM was found to be stuffed with spies planted by the US government. It is much easier to see why he might accept inspectors from an organisation which has remained scrupulously even-handed. Indeed, when UNSCOM was thrown out of Iraq in 1998, the OPCW was allowed in to complete the destruction of the weapons it had found. Bustani has to go because he has proposed the solution to a problem the US does not want solved.


"What the Americans are doing," Bustani says, "is a coup d'etat. They are using brute force to amend the convention and unseat the director-general." As the Chemical Weapons Convention has no provisions permitting these measures, the US is simply ripping up the rules. If it wins, then the OPCW, like UNSCOM, will be fatally compromised. Success for the United States on Sunday would threaten the independence of every multilateral body.


This is, then, one of those rare occasions on which our government could make a massive difference to the way the world is run. It could choose to support its closest ally, wrecking multilateralism and shutting down the alternatives to war. Or it could defy the United States in defence of world peace and international law. It will take that principled stand only if we, the people from whom it draws its power, make so much noise that it must listen. We have five days in which to stop the US from bullying its way to war.


16th April 2002

More here: http://www.monbiot.com/dsp_article.cfm?article_id=505
 
Crusher,

First, don't attempt to lump me into the half a brain group. I don't believe in World Domination theories. I've lived some time in the USA and liked it, especially the people.

Second, you're right that the situation is unique and warrants very careful consideration. I didn't dismiss that; I brought out a thing that some seemed to take for granted (the right to declare wars), hoping it would be discussed. Thank you, certainly, for contributing to that.

Third, I didn't mention Afghanistan, so I don't understand why bring Al-Qaida's terrorism (9/11) to bear into the current situation. FWIW, Bin Laden has but opposed Saddam's regime for stomping on the fundie moslems in Iraq.

Fourth, I didn't compare Saddam's and George W's regimes. I juxtaposed the use of WMDs by two countries. Please don't read more than that into it.

Fifth, I wasn't trying to prove anything about the articles Pascal posted. I'm not interested in proving anything about them. I just mentioned they are an alternative view -- they are. Maybe the "elephants" bit over there wasn't very polite of me -- I apologise -- not everybody who responded is a member or supporter of the Republican party in USA, I gather.

Any problem?
 
pascal! You are trying to get me to take an article published in The Guardian as God's honest truth? Dude, I am sorry, but I simply can't. Not only that, but the article does not pertain to what I was saying. I said, if you read it over again, that the US did not ignore the situation in Iraq and has been there right along pushing to unseat Saddam.

And we weren't alone. Keep that in mind.
 
MrsSkywalker said:
pascal! You are trying to get me to take an article published in The Guardian as God's honest truth? Dude, I am sorry, but I simply can't. Not only that, but the article does not pertain to what I was saying. I said, if you read it over again, that the US did not ignore the situation in Iraq and has been there right along pushing to unseat Saddam.

And we weren't alone. Keep that in mind.
Man, this is a fact. Just use Google and find many, many more links. This info is old and almost everyone knows that. YOU CANT DENY A FACT. :devilish:
 
YOU CANT DENY A FACT.

Seems to get you through discussions just fine!

My point is, fact or fiction, it's irrelevant to what I was saying. That's it.

However, since you brought the subject of fact in that particular situation up, here's a fact for you. Only five nations voted for him, with 17 voting "no confidence", with 18 abstaining...in essence, voting against him without bearing the liberal's whining about their decision. The US along with at least 16 other nations felt that his procedures were too lenient to do anything but justify more foot dragging by the UN, and I agree. I'm not saying he wasn't good at what he did. When dealing with rational leaders he was extremely successful. However, he planned on doing the same thing in Iraq, and as we all know, Iraq is run by a liar with serious dillusional tendancies. The entire UN couldn't get anything done for cryin' out loud, and this guy was expecting Saddam just to bring him the chemicals! Saddam would have chewed this guy up and spit him back out, the whole time making Bustani look like a fool for believing him. You can say that's the US throwing around their weight. I say that's the US and at least 16 other nations realizing allowing him to remain would only cause more delays.
 
pascal said:
So you read the first paragraph and discard it!!! Then you try to qualify me as irresponsible???

I wasn't calling you irresponsible, I was calling whoever wrote that "article" irresponsible. Do you honestly think that the following sentence is a fair and accurate depiction of what the context of the text the quotes were taken from was trying to represent:

The task at hand according to the Pentagon’s own official documents, is nothing less than establishing “full spectrum dominanceâ€￾ in a “unipolar world.â€￾

I know blatant out-of-context quoting to manipulate and spin arguments when I see it, I should hope you can recognize it as well when it's at this level.

Are not all articles a mix of facts and opinions??

No, some articles are purely factual. Any article that isn't *should* be labeled an editorial, according to the strictest rules. However, I'm well aware that most articles do contain some bias, it's just not noticable to most people at first glance because they usually aren't that biased. The first article you posted is not an example of that, though. That is an outright opinion article, and what's more, it's written by a hypocrite.

One of the co-authors, Roger Normand, is a member of an extremist liberal foundation, the Center for Economic and Social Rights (CESR). From their website:

"The Center for Economic and Social Rights (CESR) was established in 1993 to promote social justice through human rights. In a world where systemic poverty and inequality deprive so many people of their fundamental right to live in dignity, CESR promotes the human rights to housing, education, health, food, work, and social security."

In other words, they are supposed to want the Iraqi people to have everything Saddam refuses to give them. However, because their politics take precidence over their goals, they denounce the war on Iraq. It seems they only want the world to be a smiling, happy place as long as it's not brought about through actions of force. They would rather induce change by sitting around sipping coffee and tossing ideas back and forth. That's all fine and good, as long as you're only dealing with civilized people who are going to change after such discussions. Saddam is not one of those people.

I think this article is good to show what people around the world is worried about.

I think it serves more as a soapbox for anti-war liberals who would rather let bugs destroy their crops than harm an 'innocent' and defenseless insect.

note: I'm not very politically polarized by nature, and associate with the liberal point of view more often than the conservative. I tend to hope most of the people in the world make their own decisions, rather than allow a political party to do the thinking for them. I only tend to call people liberals or conservatives when their extremist behavior seems to contradict logic and reason. What I see in that article does both.
 
MrsSkywalker said:
My point is, fact or fiction, it's irrelevant to what I was saying. That's it.
My apologies, too fast reading.

However, since you brought the subject of fact in that particular situation up, here's a fact for you. Only five nations voted for him, with 17 voting "no confidence", with 18 abstaining...in essence, voting against him without bearing the liberal's whining about their decision. The US along with at least 16 other nations felt that his procedures were too lenient to do anything but justify more foot dragging by the UN, and I agree. I'm not saying he wasn't good at what he did. When dealing with rational leaders he was extremely successful. However, he planned on doing the same thing in Iraq, and as we all know, Iraq is run by a liar with serious dillusional tendancies. The entire UN couldn't get anything done for cryin' out loud, and this guy was expecting Saddam just to bring him the chemicals! Saddam would have chewed this guy up and spit him back out, the whole time making Bustani look like a fool for believing him. You can say that's the US throwing around their weight. I say that's the US and at least 16 other nations realizing allowing him to remain would only cause more delays.
But it is like giving peace no chance. From the begining they constructed the path of war no peace.
 
"Now UN exist to protect the interrest of dictators? "

Yes, it exists to protect the interests of any nation. It makes no difference if that nation is a democracy or not. That means that the UN in some situations will protect dictators.

"Is not your country dictating to the world what to do like the Iraq´s war?"

I live in Europe not in the US. I support the US in this case. I beleive in freedom and democracy. I dont like dictators and I dont like fanatic socialists that live in a perverted dreamworld where good becomes evil and evil becomes good. I see people like that on the streets where I live. They are shouting and screaming, burning american flags and destroying honest peoples property. You know, what you are saying is the same message I here from them. And I´m not impressed.

"UN was invented by US but when it doesnt do what you want then it is qualified and a "dictator protector"??"

That makes no difference.

"Since US lost its interrest in UN then maybe it is time to move UN from NY to Paris."

Maybe or perhaps to Harrare. I dont know. I think UN needs to be improved. Significant problems exist and needs to be adressed.
 
RM. Andersson said:
I live in Europe not in the US. I support the US in this case. I beleive in freedom and democracy. I dont like dictators and I dont like fanatic socialists that live in a perverted dreamworld where good becomes evil and evil becomes good. I see people like that on the streets where I live. They are shouting and screaming, burning american flags and destroying honest peoples property. You know, what you are saying is the same message I here from them. And I´m not impressed.
I am not here to impress anyone. No it is not the same message because I dont burn flags or destroy properties. Also I am not socialist or leftist, but I believe we have to do things in the right way.
 
From the begining they constructed the path of war no peace.

Hm. Maybe I am wrong here, but I didn't think it was the US that was run by a dictator. I haven't felt terrorized for over 20 years by a sad, sorry excuse for a human being. I don't remember our government initiating a war with Iran, then invading Kuwait. I'm sure I'd remember the president threatening our neighbors with chemical and biological warfare. And not once have I seen a team of weapons inspecters searching for the WMD that we've been threatening the world with. :rolleyes:

Sorry for the sarcasm there, but this is just something we will never agree on. I place the blame for the war on Saddam Hussein and HIS refusal to follow all laws of decency. You place the blame on the US for enforcing the rules that the rest of the world set in place for Iraq. I believe that rules mean nothing if there aren't serious consequences for noncompliance, and you feel that the consequence should only be more talk. You're passive, I'm aggressive. I'm fine with that, now let's just agree to disagree. Agreed?
 
Crusher said:
Ignoring the fact that the U.N. hasn't been around long enough to say whether something done a certain way is right or not with respect to it's policies, using generalized rules like 'don't invade another country if you haven't been attacked first' have no value. There hasn't been a situation like this before, ever. There has never been a large attack on a civilian building in the U.S., let alone one brought by an organization with no national ties. The U.S. can't be going against U.N. policy because the U.N. doesn't have a policy for this situation.

I disagree. The ties between Saddam and 9/11 simply isn't solid enough to say that Iraq is the perpetrator. The UN explicitly states that only two circumstances grant the use of pre-emptive force: 1. Self defense 2. Imminent threat where all other means of resolution are exausted. Clearly the current situation doesn't fall into this criteria and hence it is a breach of the UN charter. You are speaking as if Saddam is the supporter and the one who planned and remotely executed 9/11. The evidence supporting this is grossly insufficient and hence it does not make a case for self defense. And the fact that the US and UK did not put up the second resolution for voting shows that all other means were NOT exausted. Yes of course they would have lost the vote, in which case if they continue with war, it will appear very bad for them as they'll be portaited as having defied the UN totally. But by not letting the second resolution go through, they can go to war with contextual support of the 1441 "serious consequences".

RM. Anderson said:
Yes, it exists to protect the interests of any nation. It makes no difference if that nation is a democracy or not. That means that the UN in some situations will protect dictators.
..

In reality UN protects the interests of the dictators. They use UN to stay in power and continue to murder their own people.
UN is a tool they can use to stop anyone that wants to do anything.
Anyone that care about human rights and democracy must realize this.
The dictator has rights protected by the UN because he is equal to any democratic leader. And that means that UN often cant do anything.
Any attempt to stop a dictator can be prevented because he has the rights of his nation. Some of the worst regimes, such as China, also has the right to veto and can stop anything.

In your logic if Pakistan is attacked tomorrow by India, the UN shouldn't protect it since its ran by a dictator. The UN exists to protect every nation because the world is not as close minded as some in thinking only democratic countries are worth protecting.

And since when did no democracy == automatic dictator? You speak as if the US's stance on all non-democratic countries are the same. The US has not supported dictatorial regimes before for its own interests?

And in your kind beliefs, surely non-democratic countries should be invited and involed in the UN as a means to show them the true light of the system, instead of barring them from the single most important international institution there is? I mean surely in your democratic spirit you wouldn't disallow non-democratic nations as a means to practice your democracy?
 
It depends on the situation. It can be right to defend a non-democratic nation. But it´s also true that a smart dictator will know how UN works and can take advantage of it.

Protecting the regime is not the same thing as protecting the people. At least not always.
In fact it can sometimes be terrible to protect the regime because it will hurt the peoples interests. They might get killed and tortured and they will have to suffer for years.
The interests of the people must always come first. If it´s not in the interst of the people to protect the nation it shouldn´t be done.

If someone with good intentions wants to remove a Hitler-class dictator it shouldn´t be possible for that dictator to get protection from UN.
If he can do that the system is not working in a good way.

But in other cases the situation might be very different. Im not saying that it´s always wrong to protect a non-democratic nation.
 
Erm, you're offended because I didn't respond to let you know that I don't have a problem with you sharing your opinion? Or are you offended that I didn't participate in an exercise in futility by trying to change your opinion (not that I'm above doing such things, mind you, I've just been too busy this weekend).
 
Crusher, hey, it's perfectly okay to be busy. And I wasn't *really* offended... Thanks for responding, tho.

To tell the truth, I'd be more interested in whether you had a problem with my opinions, not with my sharing mine. I guess nobody here has a problem with people sharing their own opinions, that's called freedom of opinion, right? Indeed, kinda the reason forums exist? :)

It's not an excersise in futility to try to make me change my opinion. I read discussions like these in order to gain new insight and learn more (the best possible use for the 'net), not in order to "beat" somebody in a "debate". (Not that you said anything towards the latter.) Maybe you haven't actually changed my (set of) opinion(s) on the matter so far, but certainly you have adjusted them. At least I feel like my thoughts have gone thru some R&D... (It's painful LOL)
 
Gunhead said:
First, don't attempt to lump me into the half a brain group. I don't believe in World Domination theories. I've lived some time in the USA and liked it, especially the people.

Good to hear, that comment was directed towards other individuals though. Sorry for not being clear on that, I tend to lump responses to many arguments into one rebuttal.

Gunhead said:
Second, you're right that the situation is unique and warrants very careful consideration. I didn't dismiss that; I brought out a thing that some seemed to take for granted (the right to declare wars), hoping it would be discussed. Thank you, certainly, for contributing to that.

You're welcome, thanks for bringing it up.

Gunhead said:
Third, I didn't mention Afghanistan, so I don't understand why bring Al-Qaida's terrorism (9/11) to bear into the current situation. FWIW, Bin Laden has but opposed Saddam's regime for stomping on the fundie moslems in Iraq.

My point was, according to the strictist interpretation of the U.N. charter, Iraq could theoretically get al-Qaeda to do all of their dirty work, and remain immune to any attack from the U.N. or its members. The U.N. has no contingency for a major global terrorist organization that is not a government itself, nor does it seem to have any contingency for a nation carrying out its attacks through such an organization. As for there actually being a connection between Iraq and al-Qaeda, there are many indications that Iraq is supporting them (see this page for a slightly outdated overview). Any disagreement between Iraq and al-Qaeda could easily be ignored if their combined force would be mutually beneficial in a shared goal (destruction of the U.S.). Uniting against a common enemy is a natual thing to do. I don't have undeniable proof of a connection, anymore than I have undeniable proof that we landed on the moon, but there is a strong argument in support of the claim. That being the case, attacking a nation that supports and supplies al-Qaeda is easier than tracking down all members of al-Qaeda at this time, and seems to me to be a logical and justified action to ensure the safety of our country. And as someone else pointed out here (forget who and where), the vague terminology used in Resolution 1441, specifically "serious consequences", could be argued as supporting an attack on Iraq, since they are in violation of that resolution. Depending on the angle you look at it from, the U.S. could be carrying out the action promised in that resolution, and the countries opposing this war could be considered as having been unsupportive in the enforcement of the resolution.

Gunhead said:
Fourth, I didn't compare Saddam's and George W's regimes. I juxtaposed the use of WMDs by two countries. Please don't read more than that into it.

Right, except that the situations in which each country has used WMDs were vastly different. Iraq used them in an attempt to conquer a country in a war they chose to start. The U.S. used them as a last resort to end a war that we did not start, but were dragged into after being attacked. Your statement was treating them as if they were equal actions, which would pose equal justifications for invasion.

Gunhead said:
Fifth, I wasn't trying to prove anything about the articles Pascal posted. I'm not interested in proving anything about them. I just mentioned they are an alternative view -- they are. Maybe the "elephants" bit over there wasn't very polite of me -- I apologise -- not everybody who responded is a member or supporter of the Republican party in USA, I gather.

As long as your use of the words "alternative view" in this context has a similar meaning as saying that Michael Jackson has an alternative view on how to treat children, then that's fine :)
 
Back
Top