The saddest joke ever.

[CosmoKramer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2850485.stm

Some of the hallmarks:

86% of Americans, we are told by the pollsters, believe in heaven.

76% or three out of four people you meet on any American street believe in hell and the existence of Satan. They believe that the devil is out to get you. That evil is a force in the world - a force to be engaged in battle. Much of that battle takes place in the form of prayer. Americans will talk of praying as if it were the most normal, rational thing to do.

It's not uncommon to see White House functionaries hurrying down corridors carrying bibles.

And nobody spends more time on his knees - I am back in metaphorical mode here - than George W Bush.

The Bush administration hums to the sound of prayer. Prayer meetings take place day and night.

So while there are plenty of rational people giving rational advice about policy matters in the Bush White House there is also a channel, an input, from on high.

No wonder americans think Europeans are snobby - given the enormous intellectual capacity displayed above how could we not be?

 

[kyleb]

the is all sorts of wild religious beliefs running around Washington that may people don't know about. it is amazing how much goes unnoticed too, like the petagram in the streets, the freemasons swear it is nothing of concern but i always found it rather troubling.

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/washington_dc/washington_dc.html

 

[RussSchultz]

I hate to be combative, but there's nothing more annoying in my mind that a intellectual snob who looks down at people who have religious beliefs as mental midgets.

Live and let live. If you don't believe, then I don't see how other people believing affects you in the least.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

the is all sorts of wild religious beliefs running around Washington that may people don't know about. p/quote]

I hate to break it to you, but there are all sorts of wild religious beliefs around the United States.

The fact that they exist, just so happens to be one of the great things about this country.

 

[epicstruggle]

I hate to be combative, but there's nothing more annoying in my mind that a intellectual snob who looks down at people who have religious beliefs as mental midgets.

Live and let live. If you don't believe, then I don't see how other people believing affects you in the least.

Can someone who has been in the US and in Europe for extend peoriods of time tell me how religious views differ.

later,

 

[Heathen]

Can someone who has been in the US and in Europe for extend peoriods of time tell me how religious views differ.

Well I've never been to America for an extended period of time, but in Britain we seem to be somewhat more laid back when it comes to Religion. No idea about the rest of Europe though, every country is different.

PS: Please don't lump Britain in with the rest of Europe.

 

[epicstruggle]

Actualy I dont think of England as part of Europe. Europe to me is france all the way to the eastern bloc. I dont even count spain and portugal in europe, they just dont seem to fit in the mix.

later,

 

[Heathen]

Spain and Portugal are pretty much a special case for Europe as well with very good historical reasons why.

Actualy I dont think of England as part of Europe.

Cheers, quite a few people over this side of the pond think the same as well.

 

[kyleb]

I hate to break it to you, but there are all sorts of wild religious beliefs around the United States.

The fact that they exist, just so happens to be one of the great things about this country.

well trust me i have seen many an odd religion and i do think that freedom of religion is a wonderful thing. however, i do not think it is all great; it is rather hard to do that when you have seen things like a cross being burnt on your friends lawn because he happens to be a black man living in town of intolerant religious fanatics. also, i know there are many other such things, worse things, driven by the so called "religions" in our country all the time. freedom of religion is great but freedom to impose your religion on others is something the past has taught us well that we should restrict ourselves from.

btw, i am a theist and i agree with Cosmo, so bully to your snobery argument Russ!

 

[LittlePenny]

like the petagram in the streets, the freemasons swear it is nothing of concern but i always found it rather troubling.

Some of our greatest founding fathers were Free Masons. George Washington himself, a Free Mason, was quoted saying something to the manner "The United States is to be what the brotherhood is".

There is a good reason why they went back into hiding, but you should know there are good aspects to the Masons.
http://www.historychannel.com/cgi-b...istorychannel.com/perl/print_book.pl?ID=87716

 

[Joe DeFuria]

freedom of religion is great but freedom to impose your religion on others is something the past has taught us well that we should restrict ourselves from.

So, please explain to us how "imposing religion on others" has anything at all to do with what started this topic.

 

[MfA]

I hate to be combative, but there's nothing more annoying in my mind that a intellectual snob who looks down at people who have religious beliefs as mental midgets.

There are some very smart schizophrenics, I just dont like them being in positions of power. We are talking about people who see the bible as literal truth here, ie. fundamentalists, not people who have a mystic approach to religion which is compatible with reason.

 

[kyleb]

Joe, my response was to your previous comment that the diversity of religions is a great thing in this country. i agree with you to an extent, but feel you are overlooking the bad side of it and letting such imbalance sway your opinion. but as to how that do directy with what started the topic of the thread; sense you are the one that suggested the possibility, why don't you tell us?

also LittlePenny, i do know that there are many good aspects to all people; that does not trouble me by any means. it is when we draw from something other than the good in us that i find disturbing. also i do not see how you can claim that freemasonry is underground as lodges exist all over this country and are listed in the phonebooks and on the net, our presidents swear their oath of office on a Masonic bible, and Masonic symbolism is used far and wide in this country. the best known symbol of masonry is even laid out on the streets of Washington itself, right next to the pentagram and incased with it by another of their more prominent symbols, the pyramid. please note that i am not saying that the Masonic arts which they refer to as their "craft" are a bad thing. i am simply pointing out that it is one a faith which most Americans do understand the workings; yet it still plays a large role actively shapeing our nation.

 

[horvendile]

If you don't believe, then I don't see how other people believing affects you in the least.

Not as long as they just quietly believe, no. But when religious belief starts guiding external actions, I see potential trouble. And if one really, hotly, believes in one's religion, it would be strange not to let it guide the rest of the life. As I said in another thread, who is one mortal to challenge the Word of God Almighty?

Not all actions motivated by religion are bad; far from it. But:

• Large parts of Israel's politics are motivated by religion, and have so been since the beginning. The same could, to a lesser extent, be said about the Palestinians.

• When the Christian right wing runs campaigns for creationism in school, that certainly affects other people. Likewise, when some members of it physically attack physicians practising abortion, there is trouble.

• In most cases, promises of an advantageous afterlife is a required component in suicide attacks.

• Praying instead of seeking medical help for serious conditions is definitely harmful, and often not possible to refer to one person's free choice.

Some argue that many of these actions do not represent true Christianity / Islam / Whatever. In some way, that may be true, but it is also largely irrelevant. The important thing is that someone believes in religion (/heaven / hell) enough to hurt other people, and whether the belief of the aggressor is exactly as the Confession of Augsburg or not is of no importance to the dead.

Another common counterargument is that there would be as much fighting without religion as with. I don't buy that. That would presuppose one of two possibilities:
a) That someone else would fight somewhere else, if the fighting over religion would stop. That is ridiculous, and probably not what is generally meant.
b) That the same people would fight even without religion. But there are numerous examples where religion is the only distinguishing feature between fighting parties. I find it hard to believe that they still should fight without religion.

Russ, I'm not saying that you argue as my examples above, much less advocate the examples before that.
I'm trying to show that it is not as simple as to stay quiet and count on not being affected by religious beliefs of others.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Joe, my response was to your previous comment that the diversity of religions is a great thing in this country.

The fact that there is diversity of religions in this country is not great. The fact that we are free to "worship" (or not worship for that matter) in largely whichever way we choose, which LEADS to a diversity of religions, is a great thing.

i agree with you to an extent, but feel you are overlooking the bad side of it and letting such imbalance sway your opinion.

No, I am not overlooking any bad side of it. We have laws in this country based on moral principals of "right and wrong", the purpose of which is to keep "freedom" from being, for lack of a better term, "abused." (Such as "my religion is based on the fact that all people with blonde hair are inherently evil, and therefore are to be executed at first site.)

So long as any religious practice isn't breaking the law, it's fine. The problem is with those who are intolerant of others views. The problem is with those who look at another religion, decide that it's wrong just because they don't agree with it, and then seek to have it labeled as "wacko" or only for those without some higher sense of being or intelligence.

but as to how that do directy with what started the topic of the thread; sense you are the one that suggested the possibility, why don't you tell us?

Huh? I suggest it (imposing religion on others) has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. (Which is essentially "Christianity running rampant in Washington! Oh My!") So I'm wondering why you brought it up.

Or do I have to ask directly: Do you think Bush is somehow "Imposing his religion" on others?

 

[kyleb]

The fact that there is diversity of religions in this country is not great. The fact that we are free to "worship" (or not worship for that matter) in largely whichever way we choose, which LEADS to a diversity of religions, is a great thing.

so you are saying that it is not great that it exists, only great that it is alowed to? i really do not understand your logic on this.

No, I am not overlooking any bad side of it. We have laws in this country based on moral principals of "right and wrong", the purpose of which is to keep "freedom" from being, for lack of a better term, "abused."

but those laws are abused all the time and people are abused under those laws and by bias of relgion; those are the issues which i am hopeing you might take into account.

Or do I have to ask directly: Do you think Bush is somehow "Imposing his religion" on others?

well he keeps telling us god is behind us on this, and i don't understand were he comes up with that.

as for how i was raised, i was baptized a protestant and my family always attainted protestant churches. but they were always very comfortable with me looking into other faiths and i starting going to mass with my Catholic friends and temple with my Jewish friends when i was around eight or nine. sense then i have studied those religions extensively and also investigated the theology of my native American ancestors, as well as many other religions both current and past. i have always very much enjoyed and respected religion it does much to relate humanities understanding of the divine; however i have never believed anyone who claimed their opinion is undoubtedly that of the divine.

 

[Heathen]

Or do I have to ask directly: Do you think Bush is somehow "Imposing his religion" on others?

Well it all depends really. If he is, i.e. Bible worship is compulsory etc etc, it's bad. If everyone wants to go, the more power to them.

Although being honest, aslong as it doesn't affect his ability to run the USA, who cares? I find it a bit odd, I find ALL religions a bit odd for that matter, but that's about it.

 

[RussSchultz]

I hate to be combative, but there's nothing more annoying in my mind that a intellectual snob who looks down at people who have religious beliefs as mental midgets.

There are some very smart schizophrenics, I just dont like them being in positions of power. We are talking about people who see the bible as literal truth here, ie. fundamentalists, not people who have a mystic approach to religion which is compatible with reason.

I think if you actually questioned George W. Bush on his religious beliefs, you'll find that he isn't a "fundamentalist", in the strict sense of the word.

He's a methodist, which is pretty darn close to a Catholic, which is about as far from "fundamentalist" as you can get. (According to the fundamentalists).

He does seem, devout, however. But that doesn't equate to fundamentalist.

 

[Basic]

Small OT info:
I had to check if "Freemason" is the same as Swedish "Frimurare" - it is, but with a twist called the "Swedish Rite". And on the quest for that fact I noticed that the Swedish Freemason Grand Master (= top title) is my old modern physics teatcher.

The Grand Master titel had been held by the king for ~200 years but our current king didn't want to be a Freemason.

 

[Fred]

I do actually find it slightly uncomfortable that the current white house is overwhelmingly active Christians.

The bible is riddled with passages that are mutually exclusive, for example just the other day there were pastors debating about whether war in Iraq was justified wrt to what the bible said. Both participants pulled out passages that clearly meant precisely the opposite (simplified... war is always bad.. war can be justified sometimes)

Not ot mention old laws that are clearly outdated in modern times (eg 2 camels can used as payment when a petty crime is committed).

THankfully the administration obviously doesn't pay too much attention to some of the absurdities in the Bible, but then again their stance on Creationism, gay rights, abortion etc, often makes us wonder if they aren't taking things a little too literally.