The Passion

[zidane1strife]

I would certainly believe if God provided personal evidence of himself in a one on one conversation between the two of us.

(if not already self evident).

Look, around you...

I would still view him as the same self guided narcissist with the emotional maturity of a two year old.

 

[Sage]

I would certainly believe if God provided personal evidence of himself in a one on one conversation between the two of us.

(if not already self evident).

Look, around you...

I would still view him as the same self guided narcissist with the emotional maturity of a two year old.

uhh were you trying to make some kind of point? because I completely missed it

 

[nelg]

Ok heres an intersting angle. Describe to me what could God tell you to convince you of his existence in a conversation...

How about that he has joined B3D’s folding team and his supercomputer has finished folding every protein. Or perhaps I would settle for the grand unification theory.

 

[Fred]

'Calvin also had a distinct aversion to the book of Relevation and he was very vocal about this in his arguments with Catholic authority. '

Gee I wonder why =D

Could it be lines like this?


10:10
"And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter."

 

[pcchen]

According to this report, the movie (The Passion of the Christ) could deliver US$20M on first day (Wednesday). That's pretty impressive.

 

[V3]

Yes indeed there are other geneologies. Believe it or not, they contradict Matthew's and Luke's.

No kidding, I was trying to tell you from the beginning, the genelogies are incomplete, finally managed to get it through to you.

Actually no he can't, Joseph would have to be the genetic father and Christian dogma simply can't have that.

I already told you Joseph line is cursed.

Actually the more favorite christian apology is that Luke's lineage is of Mary while Matthew's is of Joseph. One person can't have two geneologies. I am sorry, you can't have two fathers

So, what's your problem ?

No father's geneology determins inheritance silly.

Yes, However Mary's Father, can pass his inheritance through Mary (by marriage to Joseph) to Jesus, because he has no son, and Joseph would be his son in law.

But Joseph cannot pass the throne of David as inheritance, because he never got it inherited to him, his father and grand father and great great grandfather never got it, since they're sons of Jeconiah.

God gave approval to the passing of throne of David.

1:30 So the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God! 1:31 Listen: You will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David. 1:33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and his kingdom will never end.†1:34 Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I have not had sexual relations with a man?†1:35 The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called the Son of God.

1:36 “And look, your relative Elizabeth has also become pregnant with a son in her old age—although she was called barren, she is now in her sixth month! 1:37 For nothing will be impossible with God.†1:38 So Mary said, “Yes, I am a servant of the Lord; let this happen to me according to your word.†Then the angel departed from her.

You can argue about the geneologies being incomplete, but as far as the throne of David, you can argue them with God, when you meet him.

 

[V3]

Yes, exactly. Please remember that my point was that the OT is not really important to Xians and plays the role of background lore rather than theological foundation. Take the OT from the Bible and Xianity would still work the same. The only thing missing would be supplementary stories introducing god and explaining creation etc.

You take OT out from the Bible, than you'll have trouble understanding the theology in NT.

The history of the Israelite people, their laws and god's promise to them, their kings and wars and all this shit doesn't really matter to Xianity. And that's the stuff that makes up most of the OT.

The apostles basically quotes OT when they're writing NT. And to the Jews Christian, OT would matter. Even the Gentiles Christian can learn quite alot from OT.

So Christianity is about preparing for the big final massacre?

Yes. Why do you think Christians preach the message of salvation for ?

This sort of literalist fire and brimstone theology has actually little support in Protestant tradition.

Luther described the Relevation as as neither apostolic nor prophetic but in deference to tradition he did not act his own opinion by excluding Relevation from his Bible.

End of time, is in the Gospels too, not exclusive to Revelation. As for fire and brimstone, belive what you like, reality is reality in the end.

Personally, I find it kinda funny that fundy Protestantism reverted back to a pre-reformation stage. The Revelation, which has been generally disregarded or even denied by Reformators, suddenly became a central theological tenet. That's not really surprising though since fundy protestanism generally disregards and destorts the ideas of the Reformators.

And reformators didn't distort it in the first place ?

 

[pax]

I think that to believe in absolutely nothing is just extreme pessimism. But, to attempt to define "god" is just a fools excersise in futality.

To claim a complete definition is insane. Its probably an eternal pursuit. Then again so is the pursuit of knowledge. But to have a general basic set of qualities I believe god to hold isnt exactly brain surgery.

 

[pax]

Ok heres an intersting angle. Describe to me what could God tell you to convince you of his existence in a conversation...

How about that he has joined B3D’s folding team and his supercomputer has finished folding every protein. Or perhaps I would settle for the grand unification theory.

Bleh we'll have done that ourselves in a century or 2 hhe... 8)

 

[pax]

[No Pax, i am dismissing an mindless and completely relative question. Any one could apply this very line of reasoning to any deity thusly rendering it nothing more than a useless arguing tool of apologetics.

Just as i stated before this is an attempt by christian apologists to rationalize all evidence as being equally valid evidence of the existance of God.

I stated what i would constitute as proof. Physical first hand evidence of God. Meaning he'd have to show himself to me before i'd believe in him.

But you dont define what exactly that would consist in. What physical proof could be produced that could convince us in our modern world today that wouldnt leave obvious room for doubt. I cant think of a 'miracle' or stunt of any kind that I couldnt see being done by someone else for other purposes.

Thats why I say you cant really gain 100% proof through physical manifestations. You have to come to accept god through reason. If you cant do that now no amount of physical proof should convince you. Its a paradox to me I see god thru such things as my own awareness. The marvelous facts of reality all around us. Even if its all by chance mechanbisns you have to keep asking who or what set the mechanism up. With what being preceded only by another mechanism.

If you dont see your own awareness as something special then its gonna be impossible I think for you to walk to the next step in trying to define what is a meaningful existence to you.

Thing is you ask for evidence then say there cant be evidence so your're not actually asking for evidence are you?

 

[pax]

For starters this is a nonsensical question. What or who is he has no barings on if he exists thusly its irrelevant to the topic of our conversation.

Well of course it has bearings. A good definition of a supreme bieng can be arrivbed without muddling the conversation with ancient supersitions to confuse the attempt to arrive at a decent reasonable definition.

And what of the question concerning a jewish historian's view of the NT emphasizing loving God over what was taught in jewish tradition?

The aspect of the caring, thus loving, god concept isnt new in the NT. God obviously cared for the Israelis in the desert and often expressed his love for his chosen people in the biblical narrative. Doesnt mean hes not portrayed more often as jealous and vengeful but doesnt mean the other aspects of gods personality werent being seen there by the old prophets...

Really? Will you please bring this evidence to the table so that it can be examined?

Awareness, beauty, love... the simplest things we experience day to day. Why wait for miracles and some guy who can redefine at a whim quantum signatures or some such super feat. In the world of science fiction is there anything we wont be able to do in due course? Or has already been done by some advanced alien race if such exists?

But if the most amazing emotions and experiences in life cant impress on you the simple fact the universe is special. I dont know what can.

 

[jvd]

Well i saw it . It was a good solid movie. I don't see any anti jew in the movie . Through out the movie there were jews that helped him . INcluding his own followers who were jewish also .

They say its very gory and some parts have a ton of gore . Basicly when they have him chained down and whip him and then use these chains that tear off flesh when they hit the skin . But while he drags the cross he is in a robe . ALthough it is a bloody robe.

All in all I don't see what the big deal was. Its a good movie. If you believe in jesus then go see it . If you don't then go see it. It was entertaining and you could learn something about jesus from viewing it

 

[Legion]

No kidding, I was trying to tell you from the beginning, the genelogies are incomplete, finally managed to get it through to you.

No, they aren't "incomplete." They are wrong. Notice the repeated misappropriation of father son relations. This isn't a case of some one leaving information out. This is a case of bs being forged to suit the purpose of a propaganda movement.

I already told you Joseph line is cursed.

Whoa really?!

I am well aware of this and its damning ramifications.

So, what's your problem ?

That you are bullshitting and know it.

Yes, However Mary's Father, can pass his inheritance through Mary (by marriage to Joseph) to Jesus, because he has no son, and Joseph would be his son in law.

No he can't

36:5 Then Moses gave a ruling9 to the Israelites by the word10 of the Lord: “What the tribe of the Josephites is saying is right. 36:6 This is what11 the Lord has commanded for Zelophehad’s daughters: ‘Let them marry12 whomever they think best,13 only they must marry within the family of the tribe of their father. 36:7 In this way the inheritance of the Israelites will not be transferred14 from tribe to tribe. But every one of the Israelites must retain the ancestral heritage. 36:8 And every daughter who possesses an inheritance from any of the tribes of the Israelites must become the wife of a man from any family in her father’s tribe, so that every Israelite15 may retain the inheritance of his fathers. 36:9 No inheritance may pass from tribe to tribe. But every one of the tribes of the Israelites must retain its inheritance.â€￾

There isn't a shread of evidence in the bible that indicates Mary is of the line of David or for that matter who her parents are. There is however an indication she is a levite. Mary's relative, Elizabeth was a descendant of Aaron, who as anyone who has read the bible should know was a Levite (Exodus 4:14).

But Joseph cannot pass the throne of David as inheritance, because he never got it inherited to him, his father and grand father and great great grandfather never got it, since they're sons of Jeconiah.

Ergo Jesus can not be provided the inheritance of the line of David.

God gave approval to the passing of throne of David.

Bullshit. You are attempting to use Christian dogma to defend your argument in a circular fashion. Of course Christian NT will reflect their acceptance of his Davidic lineage as they can not deny it. Ergo, they invented this nonsense.

You can argue about the geneologies being incomplete, but as far as the throne of David, you can argue them with God, when you meet him.

What an weak argument.

 

[Legion]

Well of course it has bearings. A good definition of a supreme bieng can be arrivbed without muddling the conversation with ancient supersitions to confuse the attempt to arrive at a decent reasonable definition.

No this is just bullshit. What we decide, as mortal beings, has no importance or effect apon the existance of a spiritual third party if one does exist. It would exist without our capacity to define it as it would exist with it. Therefore it exist independantly of our rationalization of it.

I could define God as loving and caring omnipresent being however i could be wrong. If God does it exist he could be a cruel, callous self serving god that is only present when he chooses to partake in chaos.

The matter of defining God has no baring or relevance in this conversation.

The aspect of the caring, thus loving, god concept isnt new in the NT. God obviously cared for the Israelis in the desert and often expressed his love for his chosen people in the biblical narrative. Doesnt mean hes not portrayed more often as jealous and vengeful but doesnt mean the other aspects of gods personality werent being seen there by the old prophets...

So what you really meant to say was the portrayal of God is different. So much for the Christian dogma of believing in a static unchanging God.

Awareness, beauty, love... the simplest things we experience day to day.

Subject and relative.

Why wait for miracles and some guy who can redefine at a whim quantum signatures or some such super feat. In the world of science fiction is there anything we wont be able to do in due course? Or has already been done by some advanced alien race if such exists?

But if the most amazing emotions and experiences in life cant impress on you the simple fact the universe is special. I dont know what can.

Drop the personal invective and provide me with an actual event in your life that serves as evidence for God.

 

[Legion]

Really? Will you please bring this evidence to the table so that it can be examined?

I think you mean mocked and ridiculed when you write examined.

Of course!

Yes because all us atheists are the same. We are satan corrupted and mind controlled by evil.

I am here to steal your faith! Run christians run and hide behind the facade of moral superiority and spiritual enlightenment.

-btw John will you please answer my question: from a spiritual standpoint, what makes the material you choose to believe spiritual truth while the material you choose to refuse untruthful or inaccurate.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Yes because all us atheists are the same. We are satan corrupted and mind controlled by evil.

No, you've got that backwards. We Christians are all the same...we are God Fearing simpletons who are mind controlled by hypnotic preachers thumping the bible, and will stop at nothing until we convert the minions of Satan into our cult.

 

[zidane1strife]

uhh were you trying to make some kind of point? because I completely missed it

A'ye... You must be willing to open your eyes... do not limit the definition of what you seek, so that you may be able to recognize it when you findeth it...

Drop the personal invective and provide me with an actual event in your life that serves as evidence for God.

Hmmm, I'll give my 2 cents...

A'ye, the evidence would be subjective, but you can always make the same observations, and reach your own conclusions...

Open your eyes, and see the world around you...

As for an actual event... my prayers have been answered...

 

[Legion]

Yes because all us atheists are the same. We are satan corrupted and mind controlled by evil.

No, you've got that backwards. We Christians are all the same...we are God Fearing simpletons who are mind controlled by hypnotic preachers thumping the bible, and will stop at nothing until we convert the minions of Satan into our cult.

Bah, as i stated before i have nothing against christianity. I would defend it against such hollywood bullshit as dogma.

 

[pax]

Saying the definition of god can encompass a range of absurd qualities then you're not defining god. If you want to remain logical and reasonable in an approach to investigating something then you have to exclude some things right off bat.

What is the point in saying the possibility of god being an asshole is the same as god being love? Why submit to the meaningless chaos that would make creation out to be in some fundamental way.

Its like trying to investigate some natural process that cant be seen or experimented on but it can be arrived at mathematically. You have to exclude somethings (some equations) and not just relegate the thing to some infinite chaos.

As for proof its as I said. The best proof is right under our noses. To quote Canada's best known geneticist "atoms are special they make awareness possible..."

Anything more is just a light and sound show and can be fabricated...

 

[Legion]

Saying the definition of god can encompass a range of absurd qualities then you're not defining god.

Why? Because God must be of sound mind? I do not remember that being a requirement.

If you want to remain logical and reasonable in an approach to investigating something then you have to exclude some things right off bat.

Oh? From a religious standpoint what parts do we include as logical and which parts do we exclude as illogical? Why?

What is the point in saying the possibility of god being an asshole is the same as god being love? Why submit to the meaningless chaos that would make creation out to be in some fundamental way.

For one fundamental reason: You can not determine what God is. If he exists he exists independant of your rational.

As for proof its as I said. The best proof is right under our noses. To quote Canada's best known geneticist "atoms are special they make awareness possible..."

Verify that awareness is created by God please.

You have yet to provide evidence for God.