The Next-gen Situation discussion *spawn

[Rangers]

Indeed. The introduction of SLI means $2000 worth of top-end PC will always beat consoles now. Back in the day when custom hardware could achieve great things, the consoles could hold their own. But now consoles will always be lower spec than a top-end PC rig at launch. The best they could hope to achieve is slightly lower than a top-end single GPU system. And given that the console companies can't beat a PC, it makes some sense to be a little more conservative and chase other features, like an integrated Kinect experience. Providing a unique experience is the best chance the consoles have.

Ease of use probably means PC will never seriously challenge console to the masses, though.

I agree more with Epic, consoles role is to push out top flight graphics to the masses. Graphics they wont get on their iPad or modest Dell laptop. This point may not seem so strong now with iPad at least in range of PS360 (though I still dont see anything on iPad or Vita equaling the best on PS360), but soon we'll see another major leap to at least a 1-2 teraflops GPU in next gen reenforcing the point. That's the only place the masses are going to get 2 teraflops for 399 or less in a plug and play format.

Things like Kinect can certainly play an additive role of course...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Ease of use probably means PC will never seriously challenge console to the masses, though.

Never say never. The PC has changed a lot, and is changing. If Windows 8 offers a good user experience with the complexities of Windows hidden in the background (and there's no reason not to. Android is Linux, which is a far more user-unfriendly OS than Windows!), then the PC could become a simple box you plug into any display and can run. The advantage MS has there is they can offer the same PC experience as phone experience. Unless Android releases a desktop flavour, there'll be a separation between the desktop and portable.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Comparing Resident Evil 4 between Playstation 2 and Gamecube seems to suggest otherwise...

Comparing ports is never a great way to determine the more capable platform.

 

[steviep]

The other guys said the GPU was weaker, this one says it has more RAM and a better CPU.. so they're not really contradicting each other..

Sure, but it would take a GPU on the level of a basic laptop IGP to be technically weaker than the GPUs in the PS360 at this point. Somehow, despite the fact that the Wii U will not be a full generational leap, even I doubt that.

Comparing Resident Evil 4 between Playstation 2 and Gamecube seems to suggest otherwise...

Nevermind even looking at the games. A motherboard comparison between the platforms of that generation would be just as easy.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Sure, but it would take a GPU on the level of a basic laptop IGP to be technically weaker than the GPUs in the PS360 at this point. Somehow, despite the fact that the Wii U will not be a full generational leap, even I doubt that.

Well.. back in 2006, AMD's RS690 IGP was essentially an embedded RV370 (DX9, 4 pixel shaders, 2 vertex shaders, 4 TMUs and 4 ROPs). The Wii doesn't appear to be too far off from that..

Nowadays with the Fusion line, the stakes for IGPs/iGPUs has been significantly raised, but AMD does have the iGPU from Zacate and lower-end Llanos which are pretty weak.

Not that I believe that "having less shaders than X360/PS3" comment.. Less shaders than Xenos' 48 Vec4+Scalar (arguably 240 shader processors) would have to be something like.. 160 VLIW shaders?

 

[joker454]

Indeed. The introduction of SLI means $2000 worth of top-end PC will always beat consoles now. Back in the day when custom hardware could achieve great things, the consoles could hold their own. But now consoles will always be lower spec than a top-end PC rig at launch. The best they could hope to achieve is slightly lower than a top-end single GPU system.

Well top end pc doesn't cost anywhere near $2000 just fyi, at least not in USA, not even with sli. Having said that I'm also doubting if the new consoles will even be able to beat a single gpu 2012 pc, let alone a 2013 pc.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Well top end pc doesn't cost anywhere near $2000 just fyi, at least not in USA, not even with sli. Having said that I'm also doubting if the new consoles will even be able to beat a single gpu 2012 pc, let alone a 2013 pc.

Well you can still blow quite a bit of dollars if you really want a top system , but yeah beating the PC single gpu king at the time of the launch is not going to happen. It was possible in the past when power and heat weren't such a limiting factor. It should't really matter that much though, we should be getting enough for the devs to pull good stuff out of them.

 

[fearsomepirate]

There's one way the Wii U's chip could be less powerful than the X360's or PS3's...use an old chip. Nah, Nintendo would never do something that crazy!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Well top end pc doesn't cost anywhere near $2000 just fyi...

I wouldn't know. Every now and then a friend will send a random link to an expensive PC component from OverClockers or eBuyer, like £800 i7s. I doubt it's hard to spend $2000 on hardware. I guess it just depends on what you call top-end.

The real point is that there's less of a hardware limit on PCs and more a price limit, so consoles can't be expected to ever challenge them for the performance lead.

 

[babybumb]

http://www.forgetthebox.net/mag/culture/forum-m/rumor-wii-u-price.php

Wii U BOM rumored $180 with controller

Speaking with sources closely involved with manufacturing and distributing Nintendo products, the total cost of materials to manufacture the Wii U console (includes cost of controller) is estimated to be around $180. On top of this, our source tells us the controller’s total bill of materials and components cost no more than $50.

“Cutting production costs to maximize profits is Nintendo’s main concern with the Wii U. They are cutting costs in the Wii U’s hardware to build back confidence in investors. Nintendo wants investors to view Wii U as a less risky proposition. ”

“Nintendo chose an economical GPU and CPU that could keep up with the performance of today’s current consoles, but keep hardware costs down to maximize profits. Nintendo got a bargain price on the custom GPU and CPU that the Wii U uses. There is a bigger focus on downloadable content, applications, video content, digital distribution, and services to create a stream of revenue. Investors will be ecstatic with the news.”

 

[AlphaWolf]

That should certainly put expectations in check

 

[liolio]

That indeed makes a lot of sense. Let hope the CPU keeps up because graphic can be cut down, it's not that true for the CPU jobs.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Oh boy.. if true I fear the worst. I atleast expected them to go with something a fair bit faster than ps360. I hoped for something that could run ps720 ports. If those rumors are true it seems we should be happy if wiiu can do ps360. If that BOM is true, the mainboard, cpu, gpu and ram would only cost about 80 dollars.

Trying to keep investors happy is nice, but I can see Nintendo losing all 3rd party support again after just 1 or 2 years because of ps720.

Anyway Nintendo will be losing me as a customer. I'm not willing to pay for outdated hardware again just because they wanted to glue a tablet on to wiiu. They should have just invested 100 dollars more and come up with a machine that won't be dead to new customers after 2 years.

 

[McHuj]

On one hand, I'm not sure how they could estimate the BOM at the moment, but on the other, it doesn't seem to far off when you consider the other costs, exchange rates, and retail profits/costs. I expect the WiiU to be at most $299 so an estimated BOM of $180 isn't that far off from the actual one imo.

 

[AlNom]

I at least expected them to go with something a fair bit faster than ps360. I hoped for something that could run ps720 ports. If those rumors are true it seems we should be happy if wiiu can do ps360. If that BOM is true, the mainboard, cpu, gpu and ram would only cost about 80 dollars.

Well, do we even have a base for comparing the BOM for the current 360S/PS3Slim? How they divy up the BOM with respect to the chips is pretty hard to define even with the motherboard and cooling setup differences with those two console designs. I don't have the chip sizes off-hand (hell, does anyone even know how large RSX is? ), so I can't say what the per die cost could be ($5000 wafer, but then there's QA etc) right now. I'll have to get back to you folks on that unless someone else has a die/wafer calculator off-hand (with appropriate yield assumptions).

The eDRAM logic does cost a bit more than standard CMOS logic processes too, but... I have no reference to specifics. It's just a more complicated process.

 

[DoctorFouad]

That indeed makes a lot of sense..

LOL I told you so, Nintendo will surprise a lot of people in this forum,

I bet my prediction is true (we will see this E3, but the WiiU BOM rumored 180$ total cost already gives an indication) : the priority of Nintendo for WiiU is to achieve at least parity with ps360 hardware in terms of performance but with the cheapest possible way (it means a less expansive console to produce than the ps3 slim or xbox360 slim).

And I reiterate the challenge : if anyone in this forum could face this challenge better than Nintendo engineers, It would be really something !

 

[ultragpu]

I always thought that Zelda demo was totally possible on current gen consoles anyway, ah Nintendo you cheap bastard, if only Sony is almost as cashed up as you are.

 

[ninzel]

I was just thinking that a price of $280 would be perfect. Maybe to hopeful.

 

[joker454]

Anyway Nintendo will be losing me as a customer. I'm not willing to pay for outdated hardware again just because they wanted to glue a tablet on to wiiu. They should have just invested 100 dollars more and come up with a machine that won't be dead to new customers after 2 years.

I think Nintendo's risk is that WiiU+tablet functionality could potentially be mimicked by a Win8 console + Win8 tablet. Just like Kinect/Move took away some of the uniqueness of the Wii, if Microsoft did support tandem (albeit optional) use of tablet+console it could steal some of WiiU's uniquness as well.

 

[lwill]

I think some people may be getting a little too worked up with the rumored BoM. As an example, the G3 PS Vita's BOM was reported to be almost $160, and that is on retail for $300. Most did not expect the Wii U to exceed $350 in retail, so the estimates does seem to make sense.