The infallable US

DemoCoder

Veteran
One problem with hyping US technical superiority is that most of the nutcases in the world assume that the US is omniscient, and if collateral damage occurs, or an attack suceeds, it is only because we intended it so.

We saw this with the bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade (Chinese protesters say, it was US warning or punishing China), we see it now with the Russians (claims we deliberately targeted their convoy), and we see it now with the death of an Al Jazeera reporter.

We can't find Osama, but they assume we know the positions of every Al Jazeera reporter, and presumbly, assassinated them for a reason. These theories of course fail basic logicaly consistency, and the motives for the supposed US assassination don't make sense either.

Basically, there are no accidents.

(works both ways -- theories that Israel blew up one of our listening ships during their war)
 
More info: http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-2541810,00.html
Al-Jazeera: Journalist Killed in Blast

Tuesday April 8, 2003 11:20 AM


DOHA, Qatar (AP) - An al-Jazeera journalist was killed Tuesday when the satellite television network's Baghdad office was struck during a U.S. bombing campaign, the network reported. Employees speculated that the station was targeted for its war coverage.

The station described journalist Tareq Ayoub as ``martyr of duty'' and a ``dear and loyal colleague.'' Television images showed people immediately after the bombing carrying Ayoub to a jeep then rushing him to the hospital.

The Arabic-language channel also showed footage of its cameraman, Zuhair al-Iraqi, whose chest was covered in blood. The network's Web site said he had shrapnel in his neck, and a colleague later said his injuries were not life-threatening. Technician Mohammed al-Salha, who was thought to be missing, was later located and was said to be fine.

The Abu Dhabi TV office in Baghdad also was targeted by U.S. bombing, the station reported. Officials at Abu Dhabi TV were not available for comment.

Nabil Khoury, a U.S. State Department spokesman in Doha, said the strike on the Arab satellite TV network's office was a mistake, and he called upon al-Jazeera not to jump to conclusions.

``My personal view is that it is a mistake, a grave mistake. It is something we all regret,'' Khoury said. ``I personally cannot imagine that a country which respects general freedoms can target media establishments.''

The al-Jazeera office is in a two-story house on a road along the Tigris River that links the Information Ministry with the old palace presidential compound. Al-Jazeera said the area is residential and isn't close to governmental or military installations. The station continued to broadcast live from the Palestine Hotel after the bombing.

Some Al-Jazeera employees felt the bombing might have been deliberate, for the station has been reporting extensively on the plight of Iraqi civilians and the number of casualties from U.S. bomb attacks.

Al-Jazeera correspondent Majed Abdul-Hadi said ``astonishment, concern and fear'' were gripping journalists after al-Jazeera and Abu Dhabi offices were targeted.

``We are witnesses to what is happening. We are not a party,'' Abdul-Hadi said, speaking in the Iraqi capital. ``The killing of colleague Tareq Ayoub and the bombardment of the al-Jazeera office is to cover up the great crime which the Iraqi people are subjected to at the hands of the United States.''

Chief editor Ibrahim Hilal, speaking from the station's headquarters in Doha, said witnesses ``saw the plane fly over twice before dropping the bombs. Our office is in a residential area and even the Pentagon knows its location.''

He refused to comment on whether he thought the attack was intentional.



Ayoub, the slain journalist, was expelled from Jordan in August 2002 after al-Jazeera broadcast a program that criticized the kingdom and the ruling family's stance toward Palestinians and Iraq. He was an economics correspondent at the time and did not appear to be involved in that report.

In its 2002 annual report, Reporters Without Borders complained that Ayoub was one of two reporters detained in Jordan in May 2001 while covering an anti-Israeli demonstration there. He was soon released.

In November 2002, Al-Jazeera's office in Kabul, Afghanistan, was destroyed by a U.S. missile. None of the crew was at the office at the time. U.S. officials said they believed the target was a terrorist site and did not know it was Al-Jazeera's office.
 
pascal said:
More about other international journalists: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,932202,00.html
Journalists injured as Baghdad hotel attacked

Jason Deans and Ciar Byrne
Tuesday April 8, 2003

The base for most western journalists in Baghdad, the Palestine hotel, has been attacked this morning as the battle for the Iraqi capital intensifies.

That might explain the reason why all the US journalists left the hotel before the attack on Iraq began... they knew who would be driving the tanks...
 
If you read the Journalists also say the senior Iraqi leadership has moved into the palestine hotel, so they can use the journalists as sheilds. They also pressured the journalists to move into a larger hotel so more of them could fit in (more of the Iraqis). Luckily they did not.
 
As journalists, they should be embarrassed not to be reporting that there were Iraqi fighters either inside their "office" (the palestine hotel) or just outside engaging with the US forces.

But NO, Al Jazeera and the Guardian are the bastions of truth and unbiased reporting.
 
The number of journalists killed or hurt overall is very high in Iraq when you know the number of them in total is only a few hundred... Its very hard to determine if either belligerent is at fault tho as journalists tedn to seek out danger and action... youd need patterns of behavior tho 2x in the same day is a lot...

Id bet that tip to blow the civilian area where saddam was supposed to be was a trick to get the US to kill more civilians tho... Youd think they wouldnt need to bomb civs anymore like that with Baghad a few days away from falling into coalition hands... a few more bombings like that and I think it would be wise to skip the victory parade downtown baghdad...

Like its been said here I think the US would have better luck finding Saddam near the journalists in their hotel... And I dont think its necessary to bomb or shell that building to take it over...
 
RussSchultz said:
But NO, Al Jazeera and the Guardian are the bastions of truth and unbiased reporting.
:?:

The guardian report says that "[Chief editor Ibrahim Hilal] refused to comment on whether he thought the attack was intentional."

But CNN says:
An Al-Jazeera reporter on-air said he felt, as did his colleagues, the U.S. strike was a deliberate attack against the network, since two missiles hit the building, not one, and that the raid happened at about the same time Abu Dhabi TV offices were hit.

The reporter said he felt this was an attempt to shoot and silence the people who are witnessing crimes against the Iraqi people.

Also you will get more about the international journalists:
Four Reuters journalists including a TV cameraman, a technician and two others working at the hotel were injured, according to Sky News, which within 30 minutes of the attack, was able to broadcast footage from within the hotel.
IIRC Reuters are French, right?
 
RussSchultz said:
As journalists, they should be embarrassed not to be reporting that there were Iraqi fighters either inside their "office" (the palestine hotel) or just outside engaging with the US forces.

But NO, Al Jazeera and the Guardian are the bastions of truth and unbiased reporting.

Russ,
Al Jazeera, to my knowledge, are not at the "Hotel Palestin", however the BBC, Reuters etc are there. The US media, OTOH, are notable by their absence.
Regularly, the 'information' (and I do use that in the loosest possible sense) minister gives a press conference at the hotel so it would not be surprising that at times there may be armed people in the environs.

Generally the reports begin with a comment that they are being monitored by the Iraqi officials, but on numerous occasions these reports have shown armed fighters.

BTW the Guardian is a respected broadsheet.
 
More info: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2928153.stm
War takes toll on journalists


Journalists have become victims of the war they were sent to cover
Four foreign journalists covering the war in Iraq have been killed and at least five others wounded after coming under fire around Baghdad in the past 24 hours.
A Reuters news agency cameraman died and four other journalists were injured when an American tank blasted Baghdad's Palestine Hotel, where much of the foreign media is based.

In a separate incident, a correspondent from the Qatar-based al-Jazeera network was killed and a colleague was hurt when at least one US missile hit the station's Baghdad office.

Two journalists - a Spaniard and a German - who were travelling with US forces were killed when an Iraqi missile struck their camp south of the city.

The International Federation of Journalists - representing hundreds of thousands of journalists around the world - has condemned both sides in the Iraq war over the deaths of reporters.

Eleven foreign journalists have died in Iraq since the start of the war, and two are missing.

Hotel hit

The heaviest casualties occurred when a US tank opened fire on the Palestine Hotel.

MEDIA DEATHS IN IRAQ
8 April: Taras Protsyuk (Reuters, UK)
8 April: Tareq Ayoub (al-Jazeera, Qatar)
7 April: Christian Liebig (Focus, Germany)
7 April: Julio Anguita Parrado (El Mundo, Spain)
6 April: David Bloom (NBC, US)
6 April: Kamaran Abdurazaq Muhamed (BBC, UK)
4 April: Michael Kelly (Washington Post, US)
2 April: Kaveh Golestan (BBC, UK)
30 March: Gaby Rado (ITN, UK)
22 March: Paul Moran (ABC, Australia)
22 March: Terry Lloyd (ITN, UK)
Reuters said Ukrainian cameraman Taras Protsyuk died and a reporter, photographer, and a technician were wounded when the shell hit the 15th floor of the building.

Reuters Editor-in-Chief Geert Linnebank said: "We are devastated by the death of Taras, who had distinguished himself with his highly professional coverage in some of the most violent conflicts of the past decade."

Spanish television network Telecinco said its cameraman, Jose Couso, was wounded in the leg and jaw.

Television pictures showed two people being carried on blankets through the lobby of the hotel, as journalists - some visibly shaken - rushed out of the building clutching their equipment.

David Chater, a Sky television reporter said: "I noticed one of the tanks had its barrel pointed up at the building. We went inside... and there was an almighty crash, a huge explosion that shook the hotel."

US military officials expressed regret at the incident, and said one of their tanks had fired on the hotel in response to incoming sniper and rocket fire.

"A tank was receiving small arms fire...from the hotel and engaged the target with one tank round," General Buford Blount, commander of the U.S. 3rd Infantry Division in Baghdad, told Reuters.

'Mistaken target'

Al-Jazeera said its correspondent Tareq Ayoub died and a cameraman was injured when two missiles hit its office, virtually destroying it.


Reporting from Iraq is fraught with danger
US military officials said the building was struck by mistake.

"It is something we all regret. But I don't believe that it is possible that it was deliberate," US State Department spokesman Nabil Khoury told the network.

Two other foreign journalists - Julio Anguita Parrado, from the Spanish newspaper El Mundo, and Christian Liebig, who worked for the German weekly Focus - died when the US troops they were travelling with came under attack.

Last month, in a report on the dangers of his assignment, Mr Liebig had quoted a US major as saying: "No story is worth dying for."

Abu Dhabi television said its Baghdad bureau was also hit by US bombing.

The station broadcast footage of people carrying a wounded man to a jeep.

On Tuesday, two Polish reporters turned up safe and well after escaping from Iraqi captors who had detained them at a checkpoint south of Baghdad the previous day.

Marcin Firlej, from TVN24 news channel, and Jacek Kaczmarek, from Polish state radio, slipped away when the town they were being held in came under attack, Mr Firlej's wife told TVN24.
Well, this is what I call a dangerous profession.
 
Yes, I was under the wrong impression that they were staying at the Palestinian.

However, the truth of the matter isn't any better, and I think its even worse.

Of course you'll be in the middle of the fight if your offices are right next to the Information ministry and Republican Guard Headquarters.

The NPR reporter (staying at the Palestinian) essentially said it was a disaster of their own making--everybody knew that area would become a battle field.
 
pascal said:
Well, this is what I call a dangerous profession.

Duh, you're reporting on a war. I find it laughable that the IFJ are asking the responsible parties be "brought to justice". The (ir)responsible parties are the journalists themselves. In order to bring the story, you take a risk. Bullets and bombs kill, basic fact checking would discover that.

I'm not in the least stating its not regretable, or that it was justified in any way, however, just like a soldier, a firefighter, or a policeman, there are risks associated with the job. Getting shot or blown up is one of the risks of a war correspondant, and it certainly wasn't hidden from anybody that there would be bullets or bombs in this conflict.
 
pascal said:
See this link: http://media.guardian.co.uk/broadcast/story/0,7493,932294,00.html
"We know nobody in our trade would operate out of a building being used by the military. It is not only a question of authority but also of simple safety."

Huh?

Perhaps they wouldn't knowingly do that. But "those in the trade" also seem to have no problem operating right along side our military as embedded reporters. Is that out of "safety" too?

Perhaps no one in "their trade" should be in a city where there is a battle for control. Why isn't that part of their "safety concerns?"

If they believe that the Palestinian isn't being occupied by enemy forces, does that mean they can be guaranteed that enemy forces wont retreat there, or migrate there at some other time?

Anyway, probably percentually there are more journalists dieng than soldiers or civillians.

Which is hardly surprising, considering that the journalists are more or less purposefully putting themselves in harms way, with nothing much more than "luck" as a defense.

The journalists are taking very real risks by being this close to the action. Those that are aware of the risks are to be commended for their bravery. Those that are oblivious to the risks are simply naive.
 
RussSchultz said:
Of course you'll be in the middle of the fight if your offices are right next to the Information ministry and Republican Guard Headquarters.

The NPR reporter (staying at the Palestinian) essentially said it was a disaster of their own making--everybody knew that area would become a battle field.
From a report on the UK's ITV channel, all the journalists who are there were originally at several hotels but were moved to this one hotel on the instructions of the Iraqi regime.
 
CNN is reporting this:

The conflict in Baghdad claimed the lives of three journalists Tuesday. One Al-Jazeera reporter died in a U.S. airstrike on a building housing Arab media, the Qatar-based TV network reported. A Spanish TV cameraman and Reuters cameraman were killed and several other journalists were wounded in an explosion at the Palestine Hotel, according to various media reports. (Full story)

In both cases, U.S. military officials said U.S. forces had no alternative but to strike because they came under fire.

I am sorry to here that they got hit, but if people were firing at them then I would agree that the soldiers need to protect themselves and I trust their judgement on how to best protect them. This is one of the sad realities of war.....sometimes people get hurt :(
 
The conflict in Baghdad claimed the lives of three journalists Tuesday. One Al-Jazeera reporter died in a U.S. airstrike on a building housing Arab media, the Qatar-based TV network reported. A Spanish TV cameraman and Reuters cameraman were killed and several other journalists were wounded in an explosion at the Palestine Hotel, according to various media reports. (Full story)

In both cases, U.S. military officials said U.S. forces had no alternative but to strike because they came under fire.

Pascal posted said:
We know nobody in our trade would operate out of a building being used by the military. It is not only a question of authority but also of simple safety."

Actually, if you were to watch Fox (around 12am CT), they actually had the footage taken by the Reuters reporters IIRC and they played it in slow motion with the bottom of the screen free of that 'news ticker' BS...

And you saw individual shell casings ejecting in tandem with the smoke from a light machine gun mounted directly infront and under the camera position that was presumably aimed at the M1A1 Abrams on the bridge around 300m ahead of it.


Stupidity kills - They have nobody to blame but themselves for being used and then continuing to filmed. But Pascal will still continue to post this sort of stuff....
 
It's a sad fact that war kills, and reporters in the field, particularly at the epicenter of this whole war, should know that their lives would be in danger. I'd be very interested in seeing the video Vince mentioned--I'll have to look out for it.

Latest news I heard was that the Russians deviated from the route they told everyone they'd take. (Link.)

BTW, I don't understand how two overflights or two missiles makes the attack "worse." I really doubt pilots can pick out every detail at a few thousand feet up and at a few hundred miles an hour. Numerous passes just seems to indicate trouble locking on target, and numerous missiles seems to indicate a valuable target, or an initial miss.
 
Vince said:
But Pascal will still continue to post this sort of stuff....
:?:
Then we can not post the journalists viewpoint? Only your expert opinion are valid?

Anyway this is not my kind of job.

Joe DeFuria said:
The journalists are taking very real risks by being this close to the action. Those that are aware of the risks are to be commended for their bravery. Those that are oblivious to the risks are simply naive.

Agree. I think they are brave, this close to the action without protection is really dangerous.
 
Fine line between bravery and stupidity.

Either way, lets be honest here. THe implications is that the United States are targetting Journalists b/c they are irate with their coverage, or feel that they are less relevant than civilians. Frankly thats absurd. Al Jaheera should be ashamed of making such ludicrous assertions.

Especially given the care to spare civilians lives as evidenced by the extremely low civilian casualty count so far in this war. I mean we have on several occassions refused to bomb active targets, b/c we knew human shields were being used.

That mistakes, exceptions and the like do occur is hardly a fault of our own. Chalk it up as part of the horror of war.

The US should NOT be responsible for tracking Journalists whereabouts, nor should they be blamed when they happen to fall in lines of fire. These people generally have inside info as to where the action is or is not occuring, and as such can choose to be there or not.
 
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